Is death the end of it all?

George-ananda · May 17, 2019

Dan Mellis said:
Except that we can damage our brain in such a way that we can have two seperate consciousnesses.

And I have heard explanations of how this occurs in the dualist model too.

Dan Mellis said:
I also like the water's wetness analogy to explain consciousness. One water molecule is not wet, but a whole bunch of them acting together gains that quality. A similar thing can be said about brain cells and conscious thought.

But that still isn't a start at explaining consciousness. What impresses me most is the evidence from the paranormal suggesting consciousness without a brain (here's some pertinent to this thread topic: Afterlife Evidence).

blü 2 · May 17, 2019

natasha levchenko said:
Many people wonder what happens when we die. There are many different ideas. What's your view point?

Nothing. When the biological systems maintaining us alive have irreversibly failed, then we, and our sense of self, personality, memories &c cease to exist.

ChristineM · May 17, 2019

Salvador said:
I cherish the notion my atoms will continue to benefit life; I'm an organ donor.

Me too, in the 2 countries i spend most of my time in. And your atoms, it put a different perspective on eternity.

Dan Mellis · May 17, 2019

George-ananda said:
And I have heard explanations of how this occurs in the dualist model too.But that still isn't a start at explaining consciousness. What impresses me most is the evidence from the paranormal suggesting consciousness without a brain (here's some pertinent to this thread topic: Afterlife Evidence).

I'd love to hear those explainations

why does consciousness need to be explained? I imagine it has to some extent, although I couldnt point to a source. Even if it hasnt, what's wrong with "I don't know why or how that works"?

The evidence in that link isnt really evidence... it's extremely biased and based upon unverifiable experiences that probably couldnt be replicated under test conditions. Moreover, near death experiences are probably the least reliable evidence there is. The panicked imaginings of a dying brain clinging to life is not convincing, especially when those imaginings see what that person has been prined with their entire life. (Heaven, god etc)

LuisDantas · May 17, 2019

natasha levchenko said:
Many people wonder what happens when we die. There are many different ideas. What's your view point?

I never had much of a doubt, personally.

Death is indeed the end for the deceased individual. And that is very much a good thing.

We all do however leave a footprint, a legacy for others to deal with.

Jos · May 17, 2019

ChristineM said:
The first law of thermodynamics tells us that the atoms that make up our bodies continue forever.

They go to making new thing, maybe new blades of grass, new clouds, new people*. In the far distant future a few lucky atoms may even help towards the making of a new star which gives heat and light to new life on a new planet.

As for the mind, the consciousness, without life it ceases.

* In this way we are all made up of dead people and other dead things. Cherry thought!

If this is true, that would be pretty cool. I guess we'll never really die after all. Everything's just one long perhaps, eternal, birth, death and rebirth cycle. Maybe the stars in the night sky are actually just remnants of other people? who knows...

ChristineM · May 17, 2019

Jos said:
If this is true, that would be pretty cool. I guess we'll never really die after all. Everything's just one long perhaps, eternal, birth, death and rebirth cycle. Maybe the stars in the night sky are actually just remnants of other people? who knows...

Its scientifically valid. I am quite content that, at least a small percentage of me is made up of dead people.

As to the stars containing the atoms of dead people, doubtful unless the stars are very young. But they will.

Zita · May 17, 2019

well my belief is that the soul doesn't die, so after physical death , the soul leaves and comes back and reborn again in human form, to continue the journey of spiritual enlightenment on earth.

viole · May 17, 2019

natasha levchenko said:
Many people wonder what happens when we die. There are many different ideas. What's your view point?

We go to where we were before being born.
In other words, a dead brain is like no brain at all. And since the “I” is just the result of brains operation, we will be no more, in the same way we were not.

Ciao

- viole

George-ananda · May 17, 2019

Dan Mellis said:
I'd love to hear those explainations why does consciousness need to be explained? I imagine it has to some extent, although I couldnt point to a source. Even if it hasnt, what's wrong with "I don't know why or how that works"?

You can live fine without an understanding of 'consciousness' but it is certainly the trait of a curious human intellect to wonder about the BIG questions.

Dan Mellis said:
I in my Advaita (non-dual=God and Creation are not-two) hold consciousness to be fundamental and a mystery we can not get behind. The universe is then a derivative of consciousness. This is the opposite view of the materialist/physicalist that holds that matter is fundamental and consciousness is a derivative of matter.

The evidence in that link isnt really evidence... it's extremely biased and based upon unverifiable experiences that probably couldnt be replicated under test conditions. Moreover, near death experiences are probably the least reliable evidence there is. The panicked imaginings of a dying brain clinging to life is not convincing, especially when those imaginings see what that person has been prined with their entire life. (Heaven, god etc)

There is certainly strong evidence that consciousness can exist without a brain in that link and it goes way into things beyond the Near Death Experience. You might imagine that the quick points you raised have been considered by serious people and the contributors to that link.

I understand the natural resistance to acceptance of anything beyond the physical but maybe zero or once or twice in a lifetime there can be a major paradigm flip in one's worldview. I had one. Until that time I can just slowly add more straw to the camel's back.

osgart · May 17, 2019

Dan Mellis said:
If this were the case, how would you define a soul?

When the term soul was originally coined it literally meant person. Later, it was narrowed down to generally mean that person's sense of self. Can we get past that? Is there another step we an even take?

I define soul as the unified presence of being, heart, mind, and will.

I would not expect scientific measuring devices to ever able detect it. But there is this consistent presence in subjective experience that is multifaceted.

How would you ever translate neuron activity to the capacity to understand, interpret, or have cares? There will always be that gap in explanation.

So there are two options: 1) consciousness is a phantom caused by the brain 2) that phantom is actually real, and has its own causes and effects.

URAVIP2ME · May 17, 2019

Zita said:
well my belief is that the soul doesn't die, so after physical death , the soul leaves and comes back and reborn again in human form, to continue the journey of spiritual enlightenment on earth.

I find a lot of people think they are immortal in the sense that the soul doesn't or can't die.
Such thinking is a non-biblical concept that is often taught as being Scripture.
Whereas, what we can learn for the Bible is that Not only does the soul die - Ezekiel 18:4,20,
but the 'soul can be destroyed' according to gospel writer Luke at Acts of the Apostles 3:23.
Instead of ' reborn again ' the Bible teaches: Resurrection - Revelation 1:18.
In other words, there is going to be a future happy-and-healthy physical resurrection for the dead.
Some resurrected to heavenly life, but the majority or most people resurrected back to physical life on Earth.
After being resurrected on Earth during Jesus' coming 1000-year reign over Earth, then the resurrected ones can continue (or even begin) the journey of spiritual enlightenment on Earth with everlasting life on Earth in view.
At this time, even ' enemy death ' will be No more on Earth as per 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8.

URAVIP2ME · May 17, 2019

osgart said:
I define soul as the unified presence of being, heart, mind, and will. ..........................

I find even people who profess some form of Christianity (Christendom) define soul as an immortal presence of being.
Whereas the Bible teaches that the person himself is the soul.
For example: Adam did Not become a ' living soul ' until after his God breathed the breath of life into lifeless Adam.
After Adam started to breathe, then Adam had the unified presence of a sound heart, mind and body with free will.
Then, at dead Adam simply ' returned ' back to the dust of the ground, or returned to non-life.- Genesis 2:7; 3:9

URAVIP2ME · May 17, 2019

George-ananda said:
You can live fine without an understanding of 'consciousness' but it is certainly the trait of a curious human intellect to wonder about the BIG questions. There is certainly strong evidence that consciousness can exist without a brain in that link and it goes way into things beyond the Near Death Experience....................

But, I wonder can a Near Death Experience be the same as a 4-day old death _____________

An inquiring mind wants to know because of a curious human intellect to wonder about the BIG questions.
Thus, I find Jesus helps give us the answer at John 11:11-14 that the dead are in a sleep-like state.
No one dead is in pain, but in peaceful sleep -> Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5.
This does Not mean 'death is the end of it all' because there is going to be a happy-and-healthy future resurrection.

Zita · May 17, 2019

No it probably isn't biblical, I'm not saying it is, I don't go by words man wrote billions of years ago in those scriptures, I'm saying what I believe to be true from my beliefs!! just like you stand firm to yours, I stand firm to mine,and believe our Creator has given us ever lasting life through our soul path; I also believe that what you believe while here on earth about what happens after death is what you will experience after you die. As for me; reincarnation is the path I will be taking.

George-ananda · May 17, 2019

URAVIP2ME said:
But, I wonder can a Near Death Experience be the same as a 4-day old death _____________

An inquiring mind wants to know because of a curious human intellect to wonder about the BIG questions.
Thus, I find Jesus helps give us the answer at John 11:11-14 that the dead are in a sleep-like state.
No one dead is in pain, but in peaceful sleep -> Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5.
This does Not mean 'death is the end of it all' because there is going to be a happy-and-healthy future resurrection.

The link I included was more than Near Death Experiences. But anyway I like people that hold to a healthy Christian belief in this day of naysayers.

PureX · May 17, 2019

natasha levchenko said:
Many people wonder what happens when we die. There are many different ideas. What's your view point?

Of course, I don't know what happens, either. But I'm OK with nothing. I feel no particular need to exist in any form, forever. In fact, I could see where that might become horrific.

Dan Mellis · May 17, 2019

osgart said:
I define soul as the unified presence of being, heart, mind, and will.

I would not expect scientific measuring devices to ever able detect it. But there is this consistent presence in subjective experience that is multifaceted.

How would you ever translate neuron activity to the capacity to understand, interpret, or have cares? There will always be that gap in explanation.

So there are two options: 1) consciousness is a phantom caused by the brain 2) that phantom is actually real, and has its own causes and effects.

Could you define heart, mind and will for me? My understanding is that you mean emotions (a product of consciousness), consciousness and free will (the existence of which is debatable, but would also be a product of consciousness).

I accept that I couldnt understand how neurology works. However, I dont need to fill it with something else I can't prove.

osgart · May 17, 2019

Dan Mellis said:
Could you define heart, mind and will for me? My understanding is that you mean emotions (a product of consciousness), consciousness and free will (the existence of which is debatable, but would also be a product of consciousness).

I accept that I couldnt understand how neurology works. However, I dont need to fill it with something else I can't prove.

By the word heart i mean the place where all loves, cares, hates, ambivalences, and desires occurs. Nothing more then that. I suppose what you call emotions I call heart.

Mind is the place of understanding that guides the heart. Will emanates from the heart.

Soul is a very convenient term for me! I find it more understandable than a process that produces drives and emotions. But i suppose the language of the soul has become archaic to modern civilization.

If it aint material it dont matter I suppose. That's just not me though!

Dan Mellis · May 17, 2019

osgart said:
By the word heart i mean the place where all loves, cares, hates, ambivalences, and desires occurs. Nothing more then that. I suppose what you call emotions I call heart.

Mind is the place of understanding that guides the heart. Will emanates from the heart.

Soul is a very convenient term for me! I find it more understandable than a process that produces drives and emotions. But i suppose the language of the soul has become archaic to modern civilization.

If it aint material it dont matter I suppose. That's just not me though!

Its not that it doesnt matter, I just don't see a reason to believe that it exists. Thats fair enough though, it sounds like you have your beliefs and I can't consider the concept of a soul harmful in and of itself

Is death the end of it all?

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