Genesis 10...why it isn’t history.

Hockeycowboy · May 15, 2019

Gerry said:
Interesting how you took an Old Testament Genesis 10 topic, and slipped into Matthew and Luke.

Perhaps that misdirection was necessary for you for some reason beyond me.

I guess I could ask you: So, you believe the entire earth was flooded with water and some drunk guy and his family saved all life on earth using a wooden boat?

Misdirection?

Jesus' genealogy ID's people mentioned in Genesis 10. (Even the "drunk guy" is mentioned as an ancestor.) Don't you get the connection?

And yes, I do believe the Flood was worldwide...so did Jesus and his Apostles . (Matthew 24:37-39; 2 Peter 2:5; 2 Peter 3:6)
There's too much evidence to ignore...
Evidences Supporting the Biblical Flood

(I especially like points 2 & 5.)

And, BTW, I'm not a YEC. The Earth is old...civilization is young.

Hockeycowboy · May 15, 2019

sooda said:
Where did you get the idea that we will return to Eden?

Many reasons, not the least of which is the indication in Jesus' model prayer to God @ Matthew 6:9-10: "Thy will be done on Earth."

Also, Psalms 37:10-11, 29;
Psalms 46:9;
Psalms 72:16;
Isaiah 11:6-9;
Isaiah 35:5-6;
Daniel 7:13-14
Jesus' statement, @ Matthew 5:5;
The fulfillment of the Lord's (model) prayer, @ Revelation 21:3-4.

Oodles of others!

Hockeycowboy · May 15, 2019

Gerry said:
And, YES, it would be accurate in EVERY way.
And the person who it was written to would understand it without any problem.

Do you understand it?

I'm still learning. Trying to be "taught by Jehovah" (Isaiah 54:13 ["The LORD" mentioned there, is "Yahweh" / "Jehovah", Psalms 83:18]), as Jesus indicated @ Luke 10:21.

gnostic · May 16, 2019

Hockeycowboy said:
Y'all are so misled! Though it's to be expected -- Revelation 12:9..."...who is misleading the entire inhabited earth."
You present a Gish. If it's allowed....
Here's mine (with the proffered documention):

http://www.2001translation.com/Authenticity.htm

Hockeycowboy said:
It would be accurate in every way.
So, you don't believe Jesus' ancestry mentioned in Matthew 1 & Luke 3 are real people?

Hockeycowboy said:
Misdirection?

Jesus' genealogy ID's people mentioned in Genesis 10. (Even the "drunk guy" is mentioned as an ancestor.) Don't you get the connection?

And yes, I do believe the Flood was worldwide...so did Jesus and his Apostles . (Matthew 24:37-39; 2 Peter 2:5; 2 Peter 3:6)
There's too much evidence to ignore...
Evidences Supporting the Biblical Flood

(I especially like points 2 & 5.)

And, BTW, I'm not a YEC. The Earth is old...civilization is young.

Hockeycowboy said:
Many reasons, not the least of which is the indication in Jesus' model prayer to God @ Matthew 6:9-10: "Thy will be done on Earth."

Also, Psalms 37:10-11, 29;
Psalms 46:9;
Psalms 72:16;
Isaiah 11:6-9;
Isaiah 35:5-6;
Daniel 7:13-14
Jesus' statement, @ Matthew 5:5;
The fulfillment of the Lord's (model) prayer, @ Revelation 21:3-4.

Oodles of others!

Hockeycowboy said:
I'm still learning. Trying to be "taught by Jehovah" (Isaiah 54:13 ["The LORD" there is "Yahweh" / "Jehovah", Psalms 83:18]), as Jesus indicated @ Luke 10:21.

None of these verses you have cited as your sources have anything to with Assyria, Babylonia and Egypt being made AFTER THE FLOOD.

The cities mentioned in regarding to Nimrod were historically built at the same time by the same man, Nimrod.

Uruk or Erech for example is about 7000 years old or 5000 BCE, at least. No one who constructed the original Uruk, but it certainly was Genesis myth of Nimrod.

While the Assyrian city of Calah, known as Kalhu in Assyrian, is only about 3260 years old or about 1260 BCE, built by Shalmaneser I, who reigned around 1274 - 1245 BCE.

How do you account for the gap of over 3700 years between the foundations of Uruk/Erech and Kalhu/Calah?

Nimrod could not have possibly built both of these cities. Not unless you illogically think Nimrod is 38-3900 years old man.

Other cities, like Babylon, Nineveh that are also associated with Nimrod, were built in different times too.

So what Genesis 10 say about Nimrod and his cities are not historically true. The archaeological evidences demonstrated they were built in different times.

As to your quotes or verses, they are really not relevant to the topic.

David T · May 16, 2019

gnostic said:
i have not created a thread in weeks, so here goes.

In Genesis 10, the narratives claimed that many of the cities and kingdoms didn’t exist until after the flood, narrated in the earlier chapters Genesis 6, 7 & 8. Genesis 10 supposedly claimed that many nations and cities were created by children and grandchildren of the 3 sons of Noah.

The most prominent examples are that of Ham’ children particularly Mizraim which is the Hebrew name for Egypt, and Nimrod, who supposedly started up the cities in Babylonia (Shinar) and in Assyria:

Erech (Uruk),

Accad (Akkad),

Babylon,

Nineveh,

Calah,

Rehoboth-ir,

and Resen.

Now I don’t know anything about the last two - Rehoboth-ir and Resen, because there are historical records or archaeological evidences that these two existed, other than in the Bible and extra-biblical literature, so I am going to assume they don’t exist.

But the others mentioned, as well as Egypt, well...they disprove Genesis 10 as being “history”. It would also mean, that Genesis was written in the Bronze Age (3rd and 2nd millennia BCE), but in the Iron Age, most likely after the 8th century BCE.

If my calculations are correct, Noah’s Flood would be set around 2400-2300 BCE...depending on you would interpret Exodus 12:40.

The problems with that date, is that Egypt, Erech (or more precisely Uruk or Unung) and Nineveh predated 2400 BCE.

Even the pyramids of Giza (4th dynasty), and earlier pyramids in Saqqara (eg the Step Pyramid of Djoser, 3rd dynasty) all predated 2400 BCE. Older royal burial site, like the 2nd dynasty, are mostly have kings entombed at Abydos.

But Egyptian culture evolved much further back, even before the first dynasty in 3100 BCE, the prehistoric period, when Egypt was divided as two kingdoms. Some of the artifacts discovered were still “Egyptian” in the Predynastic period (4000- 3100 BCE).

Nineveh was first built in 3500 BCE, so it would also predate the Flood.

The original Babylon is difficult to date, but it was a minor town in Sargon’s time, and only became a prominent city and capital of Babylonia, during the 19th century BCE and later.

Akkad is found in historical accounts, however the city has never been located. Sargon the Great started the Akkadian dynasty in Sumer, and expanded his empire to include all of Sumer as well as Assyria; Sargon was either born at Akkad or he founded the city himself. But with the location of Akkad unknown, it is not possible to date the city.

But Uruk or Erech has even older history. Like Jericho, Uruk was a city where people of different periods built settlements, on top of older settlements, so it’s history - the original settlement - go back as far as 5000 BCE. Each layers are preserved, like a time capsule, where you can date each layer to certain period. Uruk didn’t become important until 4000 BCE, and it thrive and prosper throughout the 4th millennium BCE, peak from 3600 to 3100 bce. By 3100 bce, other Sumerian cities began to thrive...until Sargon started up the Akkadian empire, conquering all Sumerian cities, including Uruk and Ur.

Ur isn’t mentioned in Genesis 10, but it too has a long history, originally built around 4000 to 3800 BCE. But Ur is mentioned in Genesis 11 as a city that Abraham was born in. The problem with Genesis Ur is that it mentioned “Chaldean”.

Chaldea didn’t exist until early 1st millennium BCE.

Lastly the Assyrian city of Calah, or more precisely Kalhu, wasn’t built until the reign of the Assyrian king Shalmaneser I (1274 - 1245 BCE).

Now unless Nimrod have lived a couple of thousands of years, he couldn’t have built both Uruk (Erech) and Kalhu (Calah).

Does anyone dispute what I have written?

The text is organized in linear fashion not written in linear fashion nor is it related to linear time at all.

It is, if I am not mistaken showing that we were developing a sense of linear time in how it's organized. Since the probability is extremely high , of Noah's ark being related to pre literate Aboriginal stories dating back 15 20k years ago how did Noah's ark happen before genesis!?

Hockeycowboy · May 16, 2019

gnostic said:
None of these verses you have cited as your sources have anything to with Assyria, Babylonia and Egypt being made AFTER THE FLOOD.

These posts were to address specific comments made by others.

The only one that applied to your OP was the first you quoted, when I mentioned Revelation 12:9.

But I’ve always thought of this: that prior to the Flood, civilization and communities existed.... the Flood wouldn’t necessarily destroy every stone structure....at least, not all of them. Once the waters drained off into the present, Flood-created ocean basins & other low-lying areas, these previous communities with their remaining structures would be ready to be inhabited again, made even greater by Noah’s offspring, such as Nimrod and others.

And all c-14 dating of items existing before the flood, would be inaccurate, just sayin.

gnostic · May 16, 2019

David T said:
The text is organized in linear fashion not written in linear fashion nor is it related to linear time at all.

It is, if I am not mistaken showing that we were developing a sense of linear time in how it's organized. Since the probability is extremely high , of Noah's ark being related to pre literate Aboriginal stories dating back 15 20k years ago how did Noah's ark happen before genesis!?

Although I am an Australian, grew up and educated like all other kids of that time, learning about the Australian Indigenous people, their history, culture and custom were minimal at that time, so when I was in primary and high schools, I didn’t know much about the Aboriginal’s oral traditions of history and legend.

I only became aware of the aborigines’ flood legend, a lot later, but I cannot remember when I heard of it. And even then, I heard it from a secondary sources, and only of brief outline of the deluge.

As we all know, floods can occur anywhere and any time, so I wouldn’t be surprised they have their version, but I highly doubt it has anything to do with Genesis’ Noah and his Ark.

I don’t doubt the Aboriginal’s Deluge is older than the Genesis. Heck, except for for some of the die-hard Christian creationists, most people understand that older civilizations and cultures have myths that predated the earliest extant composition of Genesis.

Anyway, I don’t think we can put any date as to when the story first told, nor when such event...if it did occur...to know “when” it happen.

So I would not even try to put any year as to when it was told or when did the flood happen. I am perfectly content leave such datings as unknown, because I see no point in shining spotlight on unknowable mystery.

Dan From Smithville · May 16, 2019

gnostic said:
The only times that the Old Testament started to record actual history are the reigns of kings of Judah and Israel, along with some contemporary foreign kings, like the Assyrian Tiglath-pileser III, Sargon II, Sennacherib, etc, because the Assyrians have their own records when they interact with Judah and Israel.

Genesis 10, like you said isn’t chronological.

It also doesn’t match up with archaeological evidences that we do have in those sites mentioned in Genesis 10.

The cities listed as Nimrod being built by one man, are false, because Erech (Uruk), Nineveh, Babylon and Calah (Kalhu) weren’t built in the same century, and sometimes not even in the same millennium.

The author or authors of Genesis may be able to list some cities, but they have never understood the cities’ first appearances weren’t in the same timeline.

According to scholars, Genesis is a synthesis of oral tradition that was recorded in written form. This is supported by the contradictory versions of Genesis 1 and 2. And by the inconsistencies and contradictions in the story of Noah. Not to forget that the story of Noah borrows so heavily from the Epic of Gilgamesh, that it is practically the same story from a monotheistic perspective.

Dan From Smithville · May 16, 2019

Hockeycowboy said:
These posts were to address specific comments made by others.

The only one that applied to your OP was the first you quoted, when I mentioned Revelation 12:9.

But I’ve always thought of this: that prior to the Flood, civilization and communities existed.... the Flood wouldn’t necessarily destroy every stone structure....at least, not all of them. Once the waters drained off into the present, Flood-created ocean basins & other low-lying areas, these previous communities with their remaining structures would be ready to be inhabited again, made even greater by Noah’s offspring, such as Nimrod and others.

And all c-14 dating of items existing before the flood, would be inaccurate, just sayin.

So you are claiming that antediluvian artifacts survived and they were populated with the descendants of Noah who happened to recapitulate previous cultures so exactly that no one has been able to find discontinuities in those cultures? What would be the purpose of this deceptive effort?

Dan From Smithville · May 16, 2019

gnostic said:
Although I am an Australian, grew up and educated like all other kids of that time, learning about the Australian Indigenous people, their history, culture and custom were minimal at that time, so when I was in primary and high schools, I didn’t know much about the Aboriginal’s oral traditions of history and legend.

I only became aware of the aborigines’ flood legend, a lot later, but I cannot remember when I heard of it. And even then, I heard it from a secondary sources, and only of brief outline of the deluge.

As we all know, floods can occur anywhere and any time, so I wouldn’t be surprised they have their version, but I highly doubt it has anything to do with Genesis’ Noah and his Ark.

I don’t doubt the Aboriginal’s Deluge is older than the Genesis. Heck, except for for some of the die-hard Christian creationists, most people understand that older civilizations and cultures have myths that predated the earliest extant composition of Genesis.

Anyway, I don’t think we can put any date as to when the story first told, nor when such event...if it did occur...to know “when” it happen.

So I would not even try to put any year as to when it was told or when did the flood happen. I am perfectly content leave such datings as unknown, because I see no point in shining spotlight on unknowable mystery.

Flood myths are common to many cultures, but there are some parts of the world, where these are not found in the cultural mythology. Some cultures in parts of Africa are devoid of flood myths if I recall correctly. Then it should be pointed out that not all flood myths are the Genesis flood myth. Many myths are of local flooding. Where cultures overlap on the Genesis flood, clear evidence of cultural contamination has been demonstrated.

Jeremiah Ames · May 16, 2019

Hockeycowboy said:
I'm still learning. Trying to be "taught by Jehovah" (Isaiah 54:13 ["The LORD" mentioned there, is "Yahweh" / "Jehovah", Psalms 83:18]), as Jesus indicated @ Luke 10:21.

I am glad to hear you say you are still learning. That indicates to me that you have a desire to learn. That’s what we all need, is that desire. (But few have it, that I find in this world)

Anyway, your desire will be be satisfied by the Lord, I have no doubt. He says “seek and you will find”

I wish you all the best on your journey.

gnostic · May 16, 2019

Hockeycowboy said:
But I’ve always thought of this: that prior to the Flood, civilization and communities existed.... the Flood wouldn’t necessarily destroy every stone structure....at least, not all of them. Once the waters drained off into the present, Flood-created ocean basins & other low-lying areas, these previous communities with their remaining structures would be ready to be inhabited again, made even greater by Noah’s offspring, such as Nimrod and others.

And all c-14 dating of items existing before the flood, would be inaccurate, just sayin.

Egypt and Egyptian cultures existed predated both BEFORE and AFTER literacy introduction.

Hieroglyphs were first used as early as 3300 BCE, but in more primitive forms, but slowly evolved over time, so by the time of Narmer’s successors in 3100 BCE, hieroglyphs became more developed and recognisably “Egyptian”. The cities of Naqada and Nekken predated the hieroglyphs, and continued to exist after the New Kingdom.

And it was the same with Uruk. Uruk cultures BEFORE and AFTER “the first” cuneiform inscriptions found at one of Chalcolithic temples, dated to 3500-3400 BCE. This earliest cuneiform were cruder, but it was fully developed by Jemdet Nasr period, 3100 - 2900 BCE, and would remained virtually unchanged in the Hellenistic period (322 - 50 BCE).

Jemdet Nasr was the the start of Sumerian civilization, as well as coinciding with the start of making bronze tools.

If the Flood happened around 2400 to 2300 BCE, and happened globally, you would it expect a complete halt to cultures in Mesopotamia, in Levant and in Egypt, ALL dated to precisely the same time. Flood of that magnitude would leave evidences, globally and uniformly across Europe, Asia and Africa, but no such uniform evidences at this point in time.

You would expect new cultures (like religious and funerary customs) across Europe, Asia and Africa to replace the old ones, new styles of art and pottery to replace old ones, and new writing systems to replace old ones. Nothing of the sort happened, meaning there were no global flood.

A global flood would change everything. And if it did happen, it would leave evidences everywhere that would point to a specific of time of when the flood happen. But nothing have changed, and there are no evidences of a global flood..

In Egypt, pyramids continued to be built, right down to the Middle Kingdom (and later), customs haven’t changed, art style and hieroglyphs remained “Egyptian”.

And it would be the same in Sumer and in the Levant. New people post-deluge should have replaced the old cultures, but they didn’t.

But the fact remained, there were no cities being built by Nimrod, and all evidences showed that Uruk (Erech), Babylon, Nineveh and Kalhu (Calah) were all first built at different times.

Except for Kalhu, we don’t know who built the other cities listed in Genesis 10.

gnostic · May 16, 2019

Dan From Smithville said:
Not to forget that the story of Noah borrows so heavily from the Epic of Gilgamesh, that it is practically the same story from a monotheistic perspective.

Yes, because the Bronze Age Megiddo clearly has a copy of the Epic, even though the extant clay tablets are fragmented today. Gilgamesh was a very popular myth, even during the Iron Age kingdoms of Israel and Judah.

They would have known of the creation myth, Enûma Eliš, or translated as the Epic of Creation, which the ancient Hebrews would have adapted the story of Ea and Marduk to Genesis 1.

Genesis 10...why it isn’t history.

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