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Question About Matthew 2:9

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Your defense of sunday worship is interesting, but you apparently do not know the history of why it became the Christian worship day.

Constantine declared it so as the head of the Roman empire. Many believe this was to bring pagans in who worshiped the sun god on that day.

Your need to educate me is actually a bit amusing since you seem to think I am somehow lacking in this elementary knowledge.

Sun worship is still very much in evidence in Roman Catholicism to this day to those who know what they are looking at.

But as those who have completely separated from Christendom and all of its erroneous doctrines, tell us please what day of the week is not desiccated to a false god? We do not have "Sunday" worship because it is a holy day...it is a convenient day for many people. Many of us meet on different days....OK? Your accusations are groundless.

So your argument fails. If a guy putting a log in the fireplace on Dec. 25 is worshiping pagan gods, then certainly JWś worshiping on a day which was a day for worshiping a pagan god, declared to be a Christian day of worship by what you would call corrupt Christianity is just as bad, if not worse.

You ignored the point about why you would want to imitate those pagan practices in the first place and fuse them with your Christianity? Did God approve of his people ever doing that?
2 Corinthians 6:14-18 defeats your own argument. You are mixing paganism with your Christianity....mixing light with darkness......Christ with the devil (Belial)......why do you even want to?

You cannot have it both ways, it is hypocritical to condemn others, while you excuse yourselves for doing the same thing.
That is nonsense. We do no such thing.

Lets talk about the worshiping thing.

You bring up the golden calf, and it being worshiped, certainly a pagan rite.

The Israelites believed it was a god, had the power of a god, and dedicated themselves as a followers of this god.

And because they worshipped their God with a pagan practice, (picked up in Egypt) he had them put to death! Hello.....

A Christmas tree in the home is not accepted as a god, no one believes it has any power, and no one dedicates themselves as followers of the tree, yet you accuse them of worshiping a pagan God.

Isn´t this exactly your position regarding sunday ?

How is it remotely the same?

We have no control over what the days of the week or months of the year are called. There is not one that is not connected to a false god. You have a choice to cut down that evergreen tree and put it up in your house, knowing full well that it and the Yule log are completely pagan in origin and were used in false worship. Can you control that?
Isn't that deliberately contravening a Biblical directive to separate yourself from those spiritually "unclean" things? It's your choice to continue doing it in full knowledge of what it meant to the pagans who did it to worship false gods......something that God witnessed firsthand. You can't plead ignorance.

You mention things being unclean to God. Well, he certainly declared that pork and shellfish are unclean, do you eat them ?

Why were certain foods "unclean" to Israel? These were health motivated laws because certain diseases were connected to those "unclean" creatures. But the law applied only to Israel. Gentiles were not under obligation to keep the law or its dietary requirements....except for the consumption of blood. (Acts 15:28-29)

So then, in your mind I worship pagan Gods because I celebrate the birth of Christ on Dec. 25.

I compound this pagan worship by having a cut pine tree in my living room.

Did I say that? I said that by incorporating those blatantly pagan elements into a celebration that was not ever commanded by Christ, and clearly borrowed or adopted from spiritually "unclean" sources, it its a direct contravening of a Biblical command to keep separate from those things. How can it not be?

Whether I believe in a pagan god, or actively worship it, is irrelevant, that pine tree and that celebration on that day makes God angry.

Any compromise on our worship makes God angry, as his response to Israel's excursions into false worship clearly demonstrate. At one point he wanted to "exterminate" them.

I live in the Southwest, and there are many artifacts of the Indian cultures that existed in the area. I have found some on my own land.

What if I found an interesting looking stone, obviously hand worked, and one of my Indian friends tells me it was used in a religious ceremony. Am I worshiping Indian Gods if I keep it and display it ? Is God angry with me ?

Are you going to incorporate it into your worship? That is the main concern, isn't it?

If it symbolises worship that God condemns, then personally, I would not want it in my home. Your choice would be up to you.

Denominations major in minors. Many of the more cultish ones want to have a badge they can wear that shows them to be somehow superior in the purity of their beliefs, and gives them justification for criticizing others.

If being "faithful in what is least" means avoiding anything that would offend the God I worship, then yes I would rather do that than assume that pagan practices don't bother him. When he said to Israel that he is a "jealous God" who demands exclusive devotion, and punished his people when they disobeyed him, then I will take him at his word.

For SDAś it is the sabbath, for JWś it is Christmas,and Easter ( ishtar worship !!) holidayś et. al., and translations of the Bible.

All of this is pure nonsense.

Is it nonsense to God though? He is the only one whose opinion counts here.

God judges the heart, motives and attitudes.

He sure does.

He knows what pagan worship is, and what is required for it to be so.

A cut pine tree in my living room, or you going to the kingdom hall on Sunday to worship God ain´t it.

You are entitled to do whatever your conscience dictates, or can justify. We will all see sooner or later who it is that Jesus' words in Matthew 7:21-23 applies to....won't we? :(
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Your need to educate me is actually a bit amusing since you seem to think I am somehow lacking in this elementary knowledge.

Sun worship is still very much in evidence in Roman Catholicism to this day to those who know what they are looking at.

But as those who have completely separated from Christendom and all of its erroneous doctrines, tell us please what day of the week is not desiccated to a false god? We do not have "Sunday" worship because it is a holy day...it is a convenient day for many people. Many of us meet on different days....OK? Your accusations are groundless.



You ignored the point about why you would want to imitate those pagan practices in the first place and fuse them with your Christianity? Did God approve of his people ever doing that?
2 Corinthians 6:14-18 defeats your own argument. You are mixing paganism with your Christianity....mixing light with darkness......Christ with the devil (Belial)......why do you even want to?


That is nonsense. We do no such thing.



And because they worshipped their God with a pagan practice, (picked up in Egypt) he had them put to death! Hello.....



How is it remotely the same?

We have no control over what the days of the week or months of the year are called. There is not one that is not connected to a false god. You have a choice to cut down that evergreen tree and put it up in your house, knowing full well that it and the Yule log are completely pagan in origin and were used in false worship. Can you control that?
Isn't that deliberately contravening a Biblical directive to separate yourself from those spiritually "unclean" things? It's your choice to continue doing it in full knowledge of what it meant to the pagans who did it to worship false gods......something that God witnessed firsthand. You can't plead ignorance.



Why were certain foods "unclean" to Israel? These were health motivated laws because certain diseases were connected to those "unclean" creatures. But the law applied only to Israel. Gentiles were not under obligation to keep the law or its dietary requirements....except for the consumption of blood. (Acts 15:28-29)



Did I say that? I said that by incorporating those blatantly pagan elements into a celebration that was not ever commanded by Christ, and clearly borrowed or adopted from spiritually "unclean" sources, it its a direct contravening of a Biblical command to keep separate from those things. How can it not be?



Any compromise on our worship makes God angry, as his response to Israel's excursions into false worship clearly demonstrate. At one point he wanted to "exterminate" them.



Are you going to incorporate it into your worship? That is the main concern, isn't it?

If it symbolises worship that God condemns, then personally, I would not want it in my home. Your choice would be up to you.



If being "faithful in what is least" means avoiding anything that would offend the God I worship, then yes I would rather do that than assume that pagan practices don't bother him. When he said to Israel that he is a "jealous God" who demands exclusive devotion, and punished his people when they disobeyed him, then I will take him at his word.



Is it nonsense to God though? He is the only one whose opinion counts here.



He sure does.



You are entitled to do whatever your conscience dictates, or can justify. We will all see sooner or later who it is that Jesus' words in Matthew 7:21-23 applies to....won't we? :(
Absolutely. I still am amazed that you can justify worshiping on a day that the church you say was corrupt commanded you do.

Your attitude toward it you say is what matters.

Yet my attitude toward a log on dec. 25 doesn´t matter. I am condemned for worshiping a pagan god.

Talk about a log ( not yule) in your eye.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Absolutely. I still am amazed that you can justify worshiping on a day that the church you say was corrupt commanded you do.

Your attitude toward it you say is what matters.

Yet my attitude toward a log on dec. 25 doesn´t matter. I am condemned for worshiping a pagan god.

Talk about a log ( not yule) in your eye.
We worship Jehovah everyday.

I've been to meetings on Monday, i.e. Moon Day. (Is that OK?)

I've been to meetings on Tuesday, i.e., ‘day of Tīw’, a Germanic god of war and the sky. (Is that OK?)

I've been to meetings on Wednesday, i.e., Woden's Day. (Is that OK?)

I've been to meetings on Thursday, i.e., Thor's Day. (Is that OK?)

I've been to meetings on Friday, i.e., Frigga's Day. (Is that OK?)

I've been to meetings on Saturday, i.e., Saturn's Day. (Is that OK?)

If we had an opportunity to avoid it, we definitely would! Some day soon, the organizations behind all false religions....which make up the Harlot of Revelation 17 & 18...will be destroyed, by this world's political powers (Revelation 17:15-17). We long for the day! No more "Yule log", "Christmas tree", or "Easter bunny"!

Or pagan names of days and months.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
That would (also) rule out 'Bethlehem in Galilee' in favor of Bethelem near the city of Jerusalem.

Which would uphold the point in the OP.
Well, in that version of the story, yes. In history and in Mark, and arguably John, no.
I don't find any mention of 'Bethlehem' on your link. Have I missed something?

Interesting fact is that there were 2 Bethlehems when Jesus was born. So which one was it? The most famous Bethlehem is located in the hill country (approximately 2,500 feet above sea level) of Judah. Situated on the main highway to Egypt (which came in very useful just after the birth of Jesus Christ), it was known variously as Ephrath (Genesis 35:16), Bethlehem Ephratah (Micah 5:2), Bethlehem-Judah (1 Samuel 17:12), and “the city of David” (Luke 2:4). (King David was born in Bethlehem-Judah).

Bethlehem-Judah is in the south and the other Bethlehem is in the north near Nazareth. Very interesting how God orchestrated this all together. Look at Micah 5:2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times.”

Two Bethlehem's in Israel at the time of Christ - Church Under A Bridge

Two-Bethlehems--DM2--for-in-the-article.jpg
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Interesting fact is that there were 2 Bethlehems when Jesus was born. So which one was it? The most famous Bethlehem is located in the hill country (approximately 2,500 feet above sea level) of Judah. Situated on the main highway to Egypt (which came in very useful just after the birth of Jesus Christ), it was known variously as Ephrath (Genesis 35:16), Bethlehem Ephratah (Micah 5:2), Bethlehem-Judah (1 Samuel 17:12), and “the city of David” (Luke 2:4). (King David was born in Bethlehem-Judah).

Bethlehem-Judah is in the south and the other Bethlehem is in the north near Nazareth. Very interesting how God orchestrated this all together. Look at Micah 5:2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times.”

Two Bethlehem's in Israel at the time of Christ - Church Under A Bridge

Two-Bethlehems--DM2--for-in-the-article.jpg

I started to ask myself why it could not be this Bethlehem and Google found me the answer Micah 5 2 is the prophecy that was supposed to be fulfilled and that Bethlehem is in Judea:

Bible Gateway passage: Micah 5:2 - New International Version


Which in a way is a shame since it would not be too crazy for them to take a short trip. Of course that area was not in the Census of Quirnius so it too would have failed.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
I started to ask myself why it could not be this Bethlehem and Google found me the answer Micah 5 2 is the prophecy that was supposed to be fulfilled and that Bethlehem is in Judea:

Bible Gateway passage: Micah 5:2 - New International Version


Which in a way is a shame since it would not be too crazy for them to take a short trip. Of course that area was not in the Census of Quirnius so it too would have failed.

I wonder.. its all very confusing and romantic to make Jesus fit the messianic expectation.

Josephus (not Luke) Misdated Quirinius’s Census
www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2012/12/18/Josephus-(not-Luke)-Misdated-Quiriniuse28099s...
Dec 18, 2012 · John Rhoads argues in a recent article (off-site link) that it was Josephus, not Luke, who misdated Quirinius’s census. The gist of his piece is that the Judas whom Josephus associates with a tax revolt in AD 6 (Ant. 18.4–23) is the same Judas whom Josephus says was killed a decade or so earlier by Herod the Great (Ant. 17.148–67).Rhoads offers two main arguments in support of this thesis.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Absolutely. I still am amazed that you can justify worshiping on a day that the church you say was corrupt commanded you do.

Your attitude toward it you say is what matters.

Yet my attitude toward a log on dec. 25 doesn´t matter. I am condemned for worshiping a pagan god.

Talk about a log ( not yule) in your eye.

Justification will mask every valid scriptural point raised to you.
Out of my whole post, you have avoided all of them....your choice.....a very disappointing response.

I believe that you will recall this conversation one day......pride prevents many people from accepting the fact that their cherished customs are not cherished by God....he was there and saw the originals.....and his opinion is the only one that matters. I do not have to condemn those who choose to adopt pagan celebrations.....they condemn themselves by what they choose to keep doing in full knowledge of where it came from. Who is the author of all false religion? How can one mix Christ with the devil?

You have avoided all mention of 2 Corinthians 6:14-18......it is God's word that condemns those celebrations. You can go on denying it but it changes nothing.

This is not about winning or losing an argument.....it's so much more important than that. :(
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Bethlehem-Judah is in the south and the other Bethlehem is in the north near Nazareth. Very interesting how God orchestrated this all together. Look at Micah 5:2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times.”

Two Bethlehem's in Israel at the time of Christ - Church Under A Bridge
Looking further for evidence that the second Bethlehem existed by the first century CE, I came across this statement in an article, referring to Israeli archaeologist Aviram Oshri, excavator at and champion of the second Bethlehem:

Many people have claimed Dr. Oshri’s work to be erroneous. The Israel Antiquities Authority denounces his work as "worse than a joke".
If that report is accurate then the "second Bethlehem" idea, as applied to Jesus, is at best disputed, at worst simply false.

 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
We worship Jehovah everyday.

I've been to meetings on Monday, i.e. Moon Day. (Is that OK?)

I've been to meetings on Tuesday, i.e., ‘day of Tīw’, a Germanic god of war and the sky. (Is that OK?)

I've been to meetings on Wednesday, i.e., Woden's Day. (Is that OK?)

I've been to meetings on Thursday, i.e., Thor's Day. (Is that OK?)

I've been to meetings on Friday, i.e., Frigga's Day. (Is that OK?)

I've been to meetings on Saturday, i.e., Saturn's Day. (Is that OK?)

If we had an opportunity to avoid it, we definitely would! Some day soon, the organizations behind all false religions....which make up the Harlot of Revelation 17 & 18...will be destroyed, by this world's political powers (Revelation 17:15-17). We long for the day! No more "Yule log", "Christmas tree", or "Easter bunny"!

Or pagan names of days and months.
You miss the point. Not surprising.

The name of a day is irrelevant, yet you worship on a day that, in your view, corrupt Christianity in the person of Constantine said you must worship on, to accommodate the pagans

You say it has nothing to do with your worship, and I agree.

Yet you turn around and say that a pine tree in my house on Dec. is pagan worship on my part, because the corrupt Church declared the winter solstice as the day Christ was born, a pagan holiday.. But I don think about any pagan gods on that day, I certainly don´t worship any pagan God.

So, why can I use the same reasoning as you ? You worship on a day the corrupt church said you must and it is just fine

I keep a holiday that the corrupt church set aside, and I do nothing even remotely intended as pagan worship, yet I am guilty of it.

Your organization blows off what you do, yet accuses me of worshiping a pagan god.

Weird
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Your need to educate me is actually a bit amusing since you seem to think I am somehow lacking in this elementary knowledge.

Sun worship is still very much in evidence in Roman Catholicism to this day to those who know what they are looking at.

But as those who have completely separated from Christendom and all of its erroneous doctrines, tell us please what day of the week is not desiccated to a false god? We do not have "Sunday" worship because it is a holy day...it is a convenient day for many people. Many of us meet on different days....OK? Your accusations are groundless.



You ignored the point about why you would want to imitate those pagan practices in the first place and fuse them with your Christianity? Did God approve of his people ever doing that?
2 Corinthians 6:14-18 defeats your own argument. You are mixing paganism with your Christianity....mixing light with darkness......Christ with the devil (Belial)......why do you even want to?


That is nonsense. We do no such thing.



And because they worshipped their God with a pagan practice, (picked up in Egypt) he had them put to death! Hello.....



How is it remotely the same?

We have no control over what the days of the week or months of the year are called. There is not one that is not connected to a false god. You have a choice to cut down that evergreen tree and put it up in your house, knowing full well that it and the Yule log are completely pagan in origin and were used in false worship. Can you control that?
Isn't that deliberately contravening a Biblical directive to separate yourself from those spiritually "unclean" things? It's your choice to continue doing it in full knowledge of what it meant to the pagans who did it to worship false gods......something that God witnessed firsthand. You can't plead ignorance.



Why were certain foods "unclean" to Israel? These were health motivated laws because certain diseases were connected to those "unclean" creatures. But the law applied only to Israel. Gentiles were not under obligation to keep the law or its dietary requirements....except for the consumption of blood. (Acts 15:28-29)



Did I say that? I said that by incorporating those blatantly pagan elements into a celebration that was not ever commanded by Christ, and clearly borrowed or adopted from spiritually "unclean" sources, it its a direct contravening of a Biblical command to keep separate from those things. How can it not be?



Any compromise on our worship makes God angry, as his response to Israel's excursions into false worship clearly demonstrate. At one point he wanted to "exterminate" them.



Are you going to incorporate it into your worship? That is the main concern, isn't it?

If it symbolises worship that God condemns, then personally, I would not want it in my home. Your choice would be up to you.



If being "faithful in what is least" means avoiding anything that would offend the God I worship, then yes I would rather do that than assume that pagan practices don't bother him. When he said to Israel that he is a "jealous God" who demands exclusive devotion, and punished his people when they disobeyed him, then I will take him at his word.



Is it nonsense to God though? He is the only one whose opinion counts here.



He sure does.



You are entitled to do whatever your conscience dictates, or can justify. We will all see sooner or later who it is that Jesus' words in Matthew 7:21-23 applies to....won't we? :(

Easter and Christmas are wonderful family holidays whether you have a religious tradition or not. What's with this stuff about Egypt and sun gods? You think that's what Christians are celebrating?
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
all false religions...
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but you have no objective test which will determine whether any religion is 'false' or not, simply your opinion, no?

Let alone which of them 'make up the Harlot of Revelation 17 & 18', no?
We long for the day! No more "Yule log", "Christmas tree", or "Easter bunny"!
You old grinch you!

As you know, no one knows whether there was actually an historical Jesus, and if there was, the date of his birth. Roman Christians adopted Dec 25 at some point in the 4th century, where it was the festival of Sol Invictus, 'the unconquered Sun', who then begins his triumphal return, marching to Midsummer.

The modern Christmas gets its form from Charles Dickens and Coca Cola, nativity scenes with angels and mages, plus pagan Christmas trees, Stars of Bethlehem, mystic holly and mistletoe, but its importance is celebrating decency and civility, universal and inclusive goodwill, generosity, feasting, present-giving and kindness. It's the closest thing the world has to a Day of Man, and if there's a god, [he] surely can have no argument with that!
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Justification will mask every valid scriptural point raised to you.
Out of my whole post, you have avoided all of them....your choice.....a very disappointing response.

I believe that you will recall this conversation one day......pride prevents many people from accepting the fact that their cherished customs are not cherished by God....he was there and saw the originals.....and his opinion is the only one that matters. I do not have to condemn those who choose to adopt pagan celebrations.....they condemn themselves by what they choose to keep doing in full knowledge of where it came from. Who is the author of all false religion? How can one mix Christ with the devil?

You have avoided all mention of 2 Corinthians 6:14-18......it is God's word that condemns those celebrations. You can go on denying it but it changes nothing.

This is not about winning or losing an argument.....it's so much more important than that. :(

Judaism evolved from the Babylonian religion and the Canaanite pantheon at Ras Shamra.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The modern Christmas gets its form from Charles Dickens and Coca Cola, nativity scenes with angels and mages, plus pagan Christmas trees, Stars of Bethlehem, mystic holly and mistletoe, but its importance is celebrating decency and civility, universal and inclusive goodwill, generosity, feasting, present-giving and kindness. It's the closest thing the world has to a Day of Man, and if there's a god, [he] surely can have no argument with that!

Where did you get the idea that Christmas is such a wonderful event? Apparently a lot of men feel this way because they don't have to do much....most of the hard work is done by the Missus. Right?

I have been in supermarket lines with women looking haggard because of all the Christmas shopping and the amount food and drinks they have to buy, and they will say to me..."have you finished your Christmas shopping yet?" and I say with a smile that I don't celebrate Christmas and I don't miss it one bit when I see all these worn out people trying to keep up with a tradition that has become nothing but an expensive burden for many. All the things that people love about Christmas can be enjoyed at any time of year, and many will say to me "I wish I didn't have to do all this"..... so I feel for all these weary women who have so much to do to keep up with a celebration that many have not even finished paying off from last year.

All of the elements that Christmas brings are based on pagan myths that have nothing whatever to do with Christianity. Becoming a slave to a commercial tradition is a choice. It has no religious significance for a large proportion of the earth's population....for these it is a commercial event.

Celebrating decency and civility occurs where? Ask the police what they think of Christmas when domestic alcohol fueled violence goes off the scale. Ask the homeless or elderly who have no family how they feel about it?

"universal and inclusive goodwill, generosity, feasting, present-giving and kindness"? Is that what you see? And you think that people displaying these qualities one day in the year is sufficient? :facepalm:

I assure you that, according to his word, God has a great deal of argument with it.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Easter and Christmas are wonderful family holidays whether you have a religious tradition or not. What's with this stuff about Egypt and sun gods?

Sun worship is clearly evident in Roman Catholicism. There is a Babylonian sun-wheel in St Peter's Square with an Egyptian obelisk in the middle of it. The obelisk was transported from Egypt and erected on site....it is a symbol of the sun god Ra. What are these things doing in "Christianity"?

images
images


The sun makes its appearance in many places in Catholic worship...

images
images
images


The halo too is a throwback to sun worship.

images
images



You think that's what Christians are celebrating?

What they are celebrating is not Christian and never was. There are no birthdays celebrated by God's people in the Bible. No birth dates are recorded....which means that Jesus did not celebrate his own birthday.


Judaism evolved from the Babylonian religion and the Canaanite pantheon at Ras Shamra.

Rubbish. The Jews were overtaken by false worship because they disobeyed God's instruction to remove the deviant Canaanites completely from the land. Their worship was corrupted by them and God punished them for it.
He also corrected their worship and set them back on track, but it never lasted.....The Jews were a "stiff-necked" and "wayward" people.....and by the time of Christ's appearance as Messiah...incorrigible.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
You worship on a day the corrupt church said you must and it is just fine

No, we worship on a day that happens to be convenient for most, as most people are not working. That's all.

We also use the Bible canon as it was arranged by the church (minus the apocrypha). Should we not? It's still God's Word, the ancient manuscripts being untarnished by pagan superstitions and teachings.

We remove all pagan sources affecting our worship.

I hope one day, you'll see the need, also.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"universal and inclusive goodwill, generosity, feasting, present-giving and kindness"? Is that what you see?
Maybe you're not trying hard enough.
And you think that people displaying these qualities one day in the year is sufficient? :facepalm:
That's hardly an excuse to forego a celebration about universal goodwill and human life.
I assure you that, according to his word, God has a great deal of argument with it.
I assure you that if I were omnipotent, the poor would still be with us but they wouldn't be poor, the fools would still be with us but they wouldn't be fools, you get the drift.

What's God's excuse?
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but you have no objective test which will determine whether any religion is 'false' or not, simply your opinion, no?

Let alone which of them 'make up the Harlot of Revelation 17 & 18', no?
You old grinch you!

As you know, no one knows whether there was actually an historical Jesus, and if there was, the date of his birth. Roman Christians adopted Dec 25 at some point in the 4th century, where it was the festival of Sol Invictus, 'the unconquered Sun', who then begins his triumphal return, marching to Midsummer.

The modern Christmas gets its form from Charles Dickens and Coca Cola, nativity scenes with angels and mages, plus pagan Christmas trees, Stars of Bethlehem, mystic holly and mistletoe, but its importance is celebrating decency and civility, universal and inclusive goodwill, generosity, feasting, present-giving and kindness. It's the closest thing the world has to a Day of Man, and if there's a god, [he] surely can have no argument with that!

"Please correct me if I'm wrong, but you have no objective test which will determine whether any religion is 'false' or not, simply your opinion, no?

Let alone which of them 'make up the Harlot of Revelation 17 & 18', no?"

Haven't you read any of my posts on this topic, in this very thread? My pov is well-known. At least, I thought it was.

Read 1 John 3:10-15, and tell me that's not a test.

Any religious institution that values their national affiliation over their spiritual brothers (simply because they live in another country) and are willing to kill them...those institutions are not reflecting Christ....rather, the Devil. -- John 8:44

Those who genuinely have God's spirit and blessing, will work very hard at displaying the fruitages of that spirit, the greatest of which is love. -- Galatians 5:22-23; 1 Corinthians 13:13.

They certainly wouldn't kill their brothers, or even their enemies. -- Matthew 5:44

That's the measuring stick. -- John 13:34-35.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Read 1 John 3:10-15, and tell me that's not a test.
Thanks for that.

1 John 3:10
By this it may be seen who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not do right is not of God, nor he who does not love his brother.
Hmm. In my case, trying to treat my fellow humans with decency and respect (and common sense) will have to do. It's simply untrue that I 'love' everyone in the sense of feeling that particular emotion towards them.

Does 'do right' mean anything more that that?
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Consider:

Matthew 2:1-11 (RSV)
1Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, saying, 2 “Where is he who has been born king of the Jews? For we have seen his star in the East, and have come to worship him.” 3 When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him; 4 and assembling all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born. 5 They told him, “In Bethlehem of Judea; for so it is written by the prophet:

6
‘And you, O Bethlehem, in the land of Judah,
are by no means least among the rulers of Judah;
for from you shall come a ruler
who will govern my people Israel.’”

7 Then Herod summoned the wise men secretly and ascertained from them what time the star appeared; 8 and he sent them to Bethlehem, saying, “Go and search diligently for the child, and when you have found him bring me word, that I too may come and worship him.” 9 When they had heard the king they went their way; and lo, the star which they had seen in the East went before them, till it came to rest over the place where the child was. 10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy; 11 and going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh.

Question: In as much as Herod's temple in Jerusalem is only about 5 miles from Bethlehem

a) Exactly how could a star, which would be at least 4.22 light-years* from Earth be seen to move five miles

b) and then stop?




* the closest star to earth, Proxima Centauri.

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I'm still wondering how they used a star to pinpoint a specific geographical location.

I suppose I should stop wondering about it because it's completely impossible.

What I should be wondering about is how grown people even come about in believing this complete nonsense.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I'm still wondering how they used a star to pinpoint a specific geographical location.

I suppose I should stop wondering about it because it's completely impossible.

What I should be wondering about is how grown people even come about in believing this complete nonsense.
Absolutely. The tale is simply dumb beyond belief. But when you're committed to believe whatever is put before you reason takes a back seat to need. In a sense it's sad.

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