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Issues with Islam that need to be addressed

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Muslims all over the world have repeatedly denounced the terrorists.. That's a fact.

Did it help?

Btw, there are also muslims all over the word that have repeatedly expressed their support of or sympathy with the islamist terrorists.

Ignoring them (or only focussing on the others), won't make them go away.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Did it help?

Btw, there are also muslims all over the word that have repeatedly expressed their support of or sympathy with the islamist terrorists.

Ignoring them (or only focussing on the others), won't make them go away.

They have thwarted many terrorist attacks and provided the US and UK with intelligence.

They have put terrorists to death and have lots of them in prison.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
((Update on my thoughts about this: There might be a lot more danger from the worst kinds of Islam, and a lot more support and encouragement for it from Muslims, than what we’re being told in media stories. I’m not sure there is. I’m not sure there isn’t. I have no objection to people saying that the worst kind of Islam is approved by 30%, 50% 90% or whatever % of Muslims they think it is. I don’t even have any objection to people promoting some kind of discrimination against Muslims as a way of reducing the danger from the worst kinds of Islam. Not that I would approve of that, just that I don’t object to people promoting that. What I object to is trying to incriminate all Muslims, just for being Muslims. Besides the unfairness of it, and the damage to people’s lives, it discredits and marginalizes warnings about the danger from the worst kinds of Islam, and it might be helping to train recruits for those kinds of Islam. Likewise, responding to anti-Muslim propaganda with apologetics, slogans like “Islam is a religion of peace,” and cries of “racism!” does nothing to discourage or discredit the propaganda. I think it actually encourages it and gives it more of a platform to stand on, and helps perpetuate and even intensify animosities across the divides.))
 

sooda

Veteran Member
((Update on my thoughts about this: There might be a lot more danger from the worst kinds of Islam, and a lot more support and encouragement for it from Muslims, than what we’re being told in media stories. I’m not sure there is. I’m not sure there isn’t. I have no objection to people saying that the worst kind of Islam is approved by 30%, 50% 90% or whatever % of Muslims they think it is. I don’t even have any objection to people promoting some kind of discrimination against Muslims as a way of reducing the danger from the worst kinds of Islam. Not that I would approve of that, just that I don’t object to people promoting that. What I object to is trying to incriminate all Muslims, just for being Muslims. Besides the unfairness of it, and the damage to people’s lives, it discredits and marginalizes warnings about the danger from the worst kinds of Islam, and it might be helping to train recruits for those kinds of Islam. Likewise, responding to anti-Muslim propaganda with apologetics, slogans like “Islam is a religion of peace,” and cries of “racism!” does nothing to discourage or discredit the propaganda. I think it actually encourages it and gives it more of a platform to stand on, and helps perpetuate and even intensify animosities across the divides.))

  • Hitler successfully demonized the Jews. When he penned them up in the Warsaw ghetto he claimed they were terrorists and criminals.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Many people discover rather quickly who they can talk to and who they can't talk to about sensitive issues. So it's really hard to tell what your average Muslim (or anyone else really) is actually thinking. Even harder if you can't speak the language. Behind closed doors some folks may be having a conversation about sending money somewhere to support a war, but as soon as a non-supporter walks into the room, there is a hushed silence.

So often the best we can do is guess.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
AntiMuslim hate sites have helped with recruitment and radicalism.

I always chuckle at that excuse.

Because let's turn the tables here for a bit and go all Godwin on this: white supremacist nazi's.

Let's say that among non-white-caucasian cultures, they put out plenty of propaganda and set up a real hate campaign against white folks and equate them with nazi's.


Be honest now. Would that help in any way for YOU to turn nazi and join them?
Is there anything someone can do or say to make you find nazism appealing?

Here's my hypothesis about that: the only way that it WOULD, is if the seeds of nazism are already present in your overall psych. I don't see a normal person without any racist tendencies or superiority complexes becoming a nazi because of unwarranted generalizations of other people.

And having said that, your idea would also only pretty much hold up for minority muslims in foreign countries, where they can actually be targetted directly by such propaganda. I don't think muslims in afghanistan, iraq, kuwait, saudi arabia, pakistan, lebanon, syria, iran, or whatever other islamic nation have to worry much about "anti-muslim propaganda", nore do I suspect them to be confronted with it either. In fact, in a lot of these countries, anti-muslim propaganda will be illegal and brutally punished!

Yet, they have no shortage of islamist terrorists. As a matter of fact: that IS where they come from. THEY are the ones who are recruiting muslims in non-islamic countries, not the other way round.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
  • Hitler successfully demonized the Jews. When he penned them up in the Warsaw ghetto he claimed they were terrorists and criminals.


That's horrible.

And irrelevant.

I don't remember anyone suggesting muslims should indicriminatly rounded up and exterminated.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
I always chuckle at that excuse.

Because let's turn the tables here for a bit and go all Godwin on this: white supremacist nazi's.

Let's say that among non-white-caucasian cultures, they put out plenty of propaganda and set up a real hate campaign against white folks and equate them with nazi's.


Be honest now. Would that help in any way for YOU to turn nazi and join them?
Is there anything someone can do or say to make you find nazism appealing?

Here's my hypothesis about that: the only way that it WOULD, is if the seeds of nazism are already present in your overall psych. I don't see a normal person without any racist tendencies or superiority complexes becoming a nazi because of unwarranted generalizations of other people.

And having said that, your idea would also only pretty much hold up for minority muslims in foreign countries, where they can actually be targetted directly by such propaganda. I don't think muslims in afghanistan, iraq, kuwait, saudi arabia, pakistan, lebanon, syria, iran, or whatever other islamic nation have to worry much about "anti-muslim propaganda", nore do I suspect them to be confronted with it either. In fact, in a lot of these countries, anti-muslim propaganda will be illegal and brutally punished!

Yet, they have no shortage of islamist terrorists. As a matter of fact: that IS where they come from. THEY are the ones who are recruiting muslims in non-islamic countries, not the other way round.

The US set up and trained Iran's terrible SAVAK.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Palestinian Arabs have been demonized for the past 100 years.. What do you think the reaction is to such tactics?

Right, because when Israel occupies Palestine and treats palestinians badly, you just HAVE to form an Islamic State and throw people down from rooftops while sending suicide squads to Paris.

Another bad excuse and another dodge of the actual issue.
As if radical islam is going to disappear by itself if the Israeli / Palestinian conflict gets resolved...
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
Let's say that among non-white-caucasian cultures, they put out plenty of propaganda and set up a real hate campaign against white folks and equate them with nazi's.

Be honest now. Would that help in any way for YOU to turn nazi and join them?
Is there anything someone can do or say to make you find nazism appealing?

Here's my hypothesis about that: the only way that it WOULD, is if the seeds of nazism are already present in your overall psych. I don't see a normal person without any racist tendencies or superiority complexes becoming a nazi because of unwarranted generalizations of other people.

And having said that, your idea would also only pretty much hold up for minority muslims in foreign countries, where they can actually be targetted directly by such propaganda.
((I know that wasn't addressed to me, but I'll respond to it anyway. Muslims in Europe and North America, and especially the ones who don't fit anyone's stereotypes of Muslims, are exactly the ones that I'm thinking of, whose radicalization might be facilitated by anti-Muslim propaganda. By anti-Muslim propaganda I mean trying to incriminate all Muslims, just for calling themselves Muslims, for example by saying or insinuating that anyone who does not see God telling them in the Quran to do all the worst things that people do in the name of Islam, is not really a Muslim; or persistently belittling everything that any Muslims say or do about the problem. That's the kind of talk that I'm saying might be helping to water the seeds of inclination towards violence in the hearts of potential recruits for the worst kinds of Islam.

My biggest objections to trying to incriminate all Muslims just for calling themselves Muslims is because of its hate-inducing effects towards all Muslims and the cruelty and violence arising from that, but people who don't care about that might care about the possible danger to themselves from possibly helping to radicalize people who live near them, if they truly are concerned about the danger from Islam, outside of forum roleplaying games. Besides that it's irrational because it clearly does more to discredit and marginalize warnings about Islam than to help awaken people to the dangers.))
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
((I know that wasn't addressed to me, but I'll respond to it anyway. Muslims in Europe and North America, and especially the ones who don't fit anyone's stereotypes of Muslims, are exactly the ones that I'm thinking of, whose radicalization might be facilitated by anti-Muslim propaganda. By anti-Muslim propaganda I mean trying to incriminate all Muslims, just for calling themselves Muslims, for example by saying or insinuating that anyone who does not see God telling them in the Quran to do all the worst things that people do in the name of Islam, is not really a Muslim; or persistently belittling everything that any Muslims say or do about the problem. That's the kind of talk that I'm saying might be helping to water the seeds of inclination towards violence in the hearts of potential recruits for the worst kinds of Islam.

My biggest objections to trying to incriminate all Muslims just for calling themselves Muslims is because of its hate-inducing effects towards all Muslims and the cruelty and violence arising from that, but people who don't care about that might care about the possible danger to themselves from possibly helping to radicalize people who live near them, if they truly are concerned about the danger from Islam, outside of forum roleplaying games. Besides that it's irrational because it clearly does more to discredit and marginalize warnings about Islam than to help awaken people to the dangers.))

I'm against stereotyping / generalizing in that sense, in all its forms.

I'm also against avoiding discussing the elephant in the room out of fear that it might hurt someone's feelings or sensitivities.

Also, while I certainly condemn hate-campaigns etc...
I consider it a really bad and shamefull "excuse" to explain away radicalisation.

As I said, if the seeds aren't there.... then nothing will grow - no matter how much water you pour on it.
 
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