Jesus sacrifice, why?

Nimos · May 14, 2019

Audie said:
It is all make believe, and if you do not get the "point"
it is because it is not there.

The preachers, of course, "make virtue of necessity"
with that.
They cannot explain it, any more than the so called
"trinity" can be explained. So what to do?
Make it a holy Mystery, for lo, things of god are
supposed to be mysterious, beyond human understanding.

Seems to be the case. I found a video of someone trying to explain it. And have to say it makes little sense and an awful lot of assumptions and contradictions, how people manage to find logic in these explanations is are mystery, I think.

JJ50 · May 14, 2019

Nimos said:
Jesus sacrifice for human sins is often seen as something amazing. But why is that, if he rose 3 days later perfectly fine? If doesn't really seem like that a huge thing, if you know that its only temporarily and you end up with God.

If you believe in the trinity, how is this even seen as a sacrifice in the first place, as God is eternal?

Can anyone clarify why the sacrifice is seen as something amazing in the first place?

In the highly unlikely event Jesus was resurrected, his so called sacrifice was nothing in comparison with that of those who put their lives on the line for others, with no hope of coming back to life again.

TagliatelliMonster · May 14, 2019

Audie said:
Sacrificed his comfort for the afternoon?

Depends. Is he into SM?

Wandering Monk · May 14, 2019

Nimos said:
But we don't really have free will according to the bible, God will blessed and save those that does his will and punish those that don't. That is not really a good way to encourage free will?

I still don't get what exactly we got out of Jesus sacrifice or what it was suppose to solve?, because nothing seems to really have changed. People still kill each other, do cruel things to kids etc. So it doesn't really seem like sin went away.

It solve a problem God created.

Nimos · May 14, 2019

JJ50 said:
In the highly unlikely event Jesus was resurrected, his so called sacrifice was nothing in comparison with that of those who put their lives on the line for others, with no hope of coming back to life again.

I would agree with that

tosca1 · May 14, 2019

Nimos said:
Jesus sacrifice for human sins is often seen as something amazing. But why is that, if he rose 3 days later perfectly fine? If doesn't really seem like that a huge thing, if you know that its only temporarily and you end up with God.

If you believe in the trinity, how is this even seen as a sacrifice in the first place, as God is eternal?

Can anyone clarify why the sacrifice is seen as something amazing in the first place?

You have to understand that Jesus was a human when He went through all those! He knew what kind of torture and death awaited Him - and He felt every bit of it as any human would.

Why did God have to come as a human and go through all that when He had every power to simply make everything go away? When He could've just wiped off mankind and create a different batch?

He loves us......He couldn't just simply throw everyone out.

1213 · May 14, 2019

Nimos said:
...
Can anyone clarify why the sacrifice is seen as something amazing in the first place?

I think the real sacrifice was that Jesus used his life on earth for us, by teaching us the Gospel.

Nimos · May 14, 2019

Wandering Monk said:
It solve a problem God created.

I don't see how it can be so hard to understand

. According to that guy in the video I linked, it seems to go something like this. We want to be saved and free of sin, because God say so. But since we are not perfect and therefore can't fulfill the law, we will always be sinners. This is a problem, as God is holy and have created the law, therefore he have to judge by it as he can't allow sinners into heaven, since his law is good and just. So to avoid being seen as unholy, his only choice is to fulfill the law himself, through the body of Jesus, who have never sinned and was born under the law, even though the bible clearly state several places that he is above the law. But anyway, because God need a solution he allow himself to be crucified and as he does he take our sins on himself, so we once again is able to get into heaven.. even though we clearly do exactly the same things to each other as we did back then... so there is not really any problems anymore... I think.

God is as large as he is narrow and is all about love.

:hugehug:

JJ50 · May 14, 2019

Nimos said:
I don't see how it can be so hard to understand . According to that guy in the video I linked, it seems to go something like this. We want to be saved and free of sin, because God say so. But since we are not perfect and therefore can't fulfill the law, we will always be sinners. This is a problem, as God is holy and have created the law, therefore he have to judge by it as he can't allow sinners into heaven, since his law is good and just. So to avoid being seen as unholy, his only choice is to fulfill the law himself, through the body of Jesus, who have never sinned and was born under the law, even though the bible clearly state several places that he is above the law. But anyway, because God need a solution he allow himself to be crucified and as he does he take our sins on himself, so we once again is able to get into heaven.. even though we clearly do exactly the same things to each other as we did back then... so there is not really any problems anymore... I think.

God is as large as he is narrow and is all about love.

God is the worst of sinners if the deeds attributed to it are true.

Twilight Hue · May 14, 2019

Nimos said:
Jesus sacrifice for human sins is often seen as something amazing. But why is that, if he rose 3 days later perfectly fine? If doesn't really seem like that a huge thing, if you know that its only temporarily and you end up with God.

If you believe in the trinity, how is this even seen as a sacrifice in the first place, as God is eternal?

Can anyone clarify why the sacrifice is seen as something amazing in the first place?

That's why I don't consider it a sacrifice.

Maybe pain. It's about it though.

74x12 · May 14, 2019

Nimos said:
Jesus sacrifice for human sins is often seen as something amazing. But why is that, if he rose 3 days later perfectly fine? If doesn't really seem like that a huge thing, if you know that its only temporarily and you end up with God.

If you believe in the trinity, how is this even seen as a sacrifice in the first place, as God is eternal?

Can anyone clarify why the sacrifice is seen as something amazing in the first place?

That's a modern understanding of a sacrifice that you have to lose something for it to be a sacrifice. This was an ancient sacrifice. A ritual offering for atonement. Not that Jesus didn't lose anything. It was not easy to be tortured to death. However, that's not my point here.

Deeje · May 14, 2019

Nimos said:
But we don't really have free will according to the bible, God will blessed and save those that does his will and punish those that don't. That is not really a good way to encourage free will?

Understanding what "free will" entails will answer that question.

Free will was never "free" in the sense of doing whatever we like. No one is truly free to do that, otherwise we would not have laws with penalties for breaking them. Free will is exercised within certain parameters and if everyone stays within those parameters, everyone benefits...true? If everyone observes the law and respects the rights of others and their property, then no one needs penalising. No one needs the justice system to deal with them.

If the first humans had done that, we would not be in this predicament. They listened to a rebel and joined him in disobedience....they did not respect God's property and stole what belonged to him, even though he had been nothing but generous to them. So he allowed then to experience first hand, the results of their actions. What have we learned?

What should encourage the appropriate use of free will is the reward of obeying the rules that go with it....peace and security.

I still don't get what exactly we got out of Jesus sacrifice or what it was suppose to solve?, because nothing seems to really have changed. People still kill each other, do cruel things to kids etc. So it doesn't really seem like sin went away.

Remember that God does not operate in earth time....he operates in universal time, which the apostle Peter explained in 2 Peter 3:8. If 'a thousand earth years is like one day' to God, then it's isn't taking long at all to bring this life lesson to its conclusion.

The Israelites had to sacrifice animals on a regular basis in order to have their sins forgiven (Hebrews 9:22)......their blood atoned for their sin temporarily.....but once Jesus had shed his blood on behalf of the human race (plunged into sin by their first parents) animal sacrifices were no longer necessary. If we are repentant, we are assured of God's forgiveness.

When the time is up, (only God knows when that will be) and God has chosen those who have demonstrated their respect for his Sovereignty by willingly obeying him, then all will return to the way it was originally in Eden. He will have his Earth populated by those who do not have a rebellious or independent spirit. (the cause of all human conflict)....and the trials and tribulations of this life will not even be a distant memory. (Isaiah 65:17)

Obeying the Creator is natural for those with the disposition he is looking for. The clay can never dictate to the potter, nor can they tell him how to conduct his own business. This is his Earth and he chooses who lives in it. He gives us the opportunity to qualify for that privilege.

In the "new earth" governed by the "new heavens" we can look forward to the end of all human pain and suffering, brought on by disobedience....and even death will be conquered. (2 Peter 3:13: Revelation 21:2-4)

So does it ever pay to think we know better? God has wonderful things in store for obedient ones. (1 Corinthians 2:9)

This is the Bible's message according to my understanding.

Nimos · May 14, 2019

74x12 said:
That's a modern understanding of a sacrifice that you have to lose something for it to be a sacrifice. This was an ancient sacrifice. A ritual offering for atonement. Not that Jesus didn't lose anything. It was not easy to be tortured to death. However, that's not my point here.

I follow you on that, but Jesus or God did atone for something God refused to remove in a more pleasant way or maybe he couldn't do it, not really sure. But regardless of that, humans definitely couldn't remove the sins, because we are not perfect, so not a lot we could actually do about it anyway. For whatever reason God apparently wouldn't just remove the sins in a civil manner, since he is holy and perfect or something. So he chose to send himself or his son to do it. To me it seems more like God is in some kind of conflict with himself or Jesus rather than us. It makes very little sense, the whole sacrifice atonement event, when you think about it, I think?

Deeje · May 14, 2019

TagliatelliMonster said:
1. how does killing a scapegoat "redeem" any kind of guilt of anyone else?

It was a symbolism, reinforcing the principles behind the law. Israel understood the principle. It served as a constant reminder of their need for a saviour.....with a permanent and everlasting sacrifice.

2. he didn't give his life, since he resurected 3 days later and became (or rather: returned to) being the immortal dictator of the universe

What would an atheist know or appreciate about any of it?

Jesus was formerly a spirit being whose life was transferred to the body of a human whose perfect life was laid down to redeem the human race, sold into slavery by their first parents.

As a 100% human being, he willingly laid down that human life, and after being tortured and murdered in the cruelest way, his God brought him back to life as a reward for carrying out a very difficult and selfless mission. He didn't need to do that, but he loved us enough to suffer on our behalf. If you don't want that benefit applied to you, then rest assured it won't. You actually have to qualify for it.

3. a payment to whom? himself? to save us from himself?

Why would anyone even try to explain any of it to someone who cannot comprehend spiritual things? It would be like trying to explain color to someone born blind.

When justice demands something....who receives the payment?

Literally nothing in this story makes any sense.

And for the godless, it never will.....perhaps you should stop trying?

74x12 · May 14, 2019

Nimos said:
I follow you on that, but Jesus or God did atone for something God refused to remove in a more pleasant way or maybe he couldn't do it, not really sure. But regardless of that, humans definitely couldn't remove the sins, because we are not perfect, so not a lot we could actually do about it anyway. For whatever reason God apparently wouldn't just remove the sins in a civil manner, since he is holy and perfect or something. So he chose to send himself or his son to do it. To me it seems more like God is in some kind of conflict with himself or Jesus rather than us. It makes very little sense, the whole sacrifice atonement event, when you think about it, I think?

Check my post out I made here.

It's about how God is love but also a consuming Fire.

Nimos · May 14, 2019

Deeje said:
Understanding what "free will" entails will answer that question.

Free will was never "free" in the sense of doing whatever we like. No one is truly free to do that, otherwise we would not have laws with penalties for breaking them. Free will is exercised within certain parameters and if everyone stays within those parameters, everyone benefits...true? If everyone observes the law and respects the rights of others and their property, then no one needs penalising. No one needs the justice system to deal with them.

If the first humans had done that, we would not be in this predicament. They listened to a rebel and joined him in disobedience....they did not respect God's property and stole what belonged to him, even though he had been nothing but generous to them. So he allowed then to experience first hand, the results of their actions. What have we learned?

What should encourage the appropriate use of free will is the reward of obeying the rules that go with it....peace and security.

But then humans weren't created with free will, because being free also mean that you are able to participate in choosing which laws are good or bad, and what punishment should apply, as that is a way of expressing your free will, right? But God had already decided before hand what could and couldn't be done and what punishment applied.

So if that is what you mean, then I agree. But then the bible uses the word free will in a very confusing manner that makes little sense, I think

Deeje said:
The Israelites had to sacrifice animals on a regular basis in order to have their sins forgiven (Hebrews 9:22)......their blood atoned for their sin temporarily.....but once Jesus had shed his blood on behalf of the human race (plunged into sin by their first parents) animal sacrifices were no longer necessary. If we are repentant, we are assured of God's forgiveness.

But still it makes no sense, because wouldn't you agree that no human could remove the sins? Jesus son of God (Which I agree with JW, seems most likely to be his son and not the trinity), were still "send" to earth by God to fix something he knew humans couldn't do. And since he knew that, there would be no reason to send Jesus and let him go through all the suffering and resurrection. When you read the bible a lot of people are convince and see all the miracles that Jesus and the apostle do, like curing blindness, walk on water etc. and start to follow him. So why not let him stay on earth and show people that he can do all these things, im pretty sure that would convince most people, rather than letting him get crucified. Imagine if Jesus after his resurrection instead of disappearing had walked straight into the palace of Pontius Pilate and said "Do you believe me now?" Im rather sure that would have convinced pretty much everyone. But instead humans and Christians have to go through years of torture and them torturing others to end up with people completely confused about who God, Jesus is. And whether its even true or not. Jesus could have walked around today keep doing miracles and there would be no doubt. The solution that God chose were probably the worse one, if you ask me. Especially if you count the amount of death that follow in this confusion.

Deeje said:
When the time is up, (only God knows when that will be) and God has chosen those who have demonstrated their respect for his Sovereignty by willingly obeying him, then all will return to the way it was originally in Eden. He will have his Earth populated by those who do not have a rebellious or independent spirit. (the cause of all human conflict)....and the trials and tribulations of this life will not even be a distant memory. (Isaiah 65:17)

Continuing from the last part, you now have a promise of something amazing at the end of the tunnel of eternal life and an Earth where lions play with small children, if only you throw all common sense away and put your faith and hope in God. Which again makes no sense, people that do not believe in Christianity, doesn't do it simply because they don't want to or because they don't like the idea of being able to live forever in total happiness and harmony. But because the way God have chosen to reveal or not to reveal himself to us, is plain and simply stupid and done in an unreasonable way to expect anyone to buy into it. And again asking people to ignore all the stuff he have done throughout the bible of things that we consider immoral, is asking a lot I think, without as much as offering an explanation. I honestly think that would be the least he could do.

And I don't really understand it, as a believer what do you think when you read some of the things God do, like ordering the killing of everyone in a city, so not even the animals are to be kept alive? Do people that believe just ignore it? or do you just find an excuse, that these people had it coming, children etc. could just behave, I really don't get it?

Nimos · May 14, 2019

74x12 said:
Check my post out I made here.

It's about how God is love but also a consuming Fire.

I see what you are saying, you paint a more accurate picture of God according to the bible, I think.

But if I understand you correct, this is a vengeful and "unstable" God, that is really not caring about anything, but himself and those that submit to his will. Which I agree with, but im pretty sure that it is not what you mean?

.

74x12 said:
On one hand God desires to forgive; but must satisfy the consuming Fire which demands justice. So what to do? God is trapped because He has to destroy us against His own will! --His will is to show us mercy-- But love has a way. God came in the likeness of a human being to die for our sins. So we may be forgiven. Jesus blood is proof of the true love of God.

Don't you constrain him, so he is no longer loving or all powerful, but rather quite incompetent as he have been trapped by himself as he has to destroy us against his own will? And his way of dealing with this issue and showing us his love, is to sacrifice a human being?

I mean how on earth is that proof of true love? Why not just remove the sin, simply by being the bigger man and say "I forgive you"?

Deeje · May 15, 2019

Nimos said:
But then humans weren't created with free will, because being free also mean that you are able to participate in choosing which laws are good or bad, and what punishment should apply, as that is a way of expressing your free will, right?

Who told you that? Free will is nothing like that. It was never that kind of freedom. As our rightful Sovereign, God is the one who sets the boundaries for our existence. We are free to operate within those parameters. We can make a thousand decisions every day based on our free will, but it can never go outside of God's sovereign will.

The whole reason for the existence of "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" was because God assigned himself as the arbiter of those decisions. When humans broke away from their Creator, thinking that they could make their own decisions about what is good and what is evil...they failed. Many people can't tell the difference.
In a world ruled by the devil, that is no surprise. (1 John 5:19; 1 John 2:15-17)

But God had already decided before hand what could and couldn't be done and what punishment applied.

He made one rule and expected his children to obey him. He decided what the punishment was for breaking his law because of how serious the consequences would be. Don't humans do that too? Isn't the penalty something to consider before one commits a crime? If you don't break the law, you have nothing to fear.

So if that is what you mean, then I agree. But then the bible uses the word free will in a very confusing manner that makes little sense, I think

It doesn't make sense unless you put it into a context that you do understand.....like the laws of the land for example. Why do we get into trouble for breaking the road rules, like speeding or running a stop light? Not rocket science, is it? Those laws exist for the protection of other drivers, as well as ourselves. If we are free willed and decide that we can drive at whatever speed we like, or that we will ignore the traffic lights....do we want to live in a place where those freedoms exist without stiff punishment?

Free will can never be absolutely free because we are confronted with the consequences of our decisions. If we were exceeding the speed limit on a particularly dangerous curve, ignoring the posted speed sign, and killed someone or even a car full of people.....would you expect a penalty to be applied for your careless disregard for the safety of others? Every human conflict is the result of someone abusing their free will, both domestically and internationally.

No one is granted absolute freedom because we do not have the wisdom or the maturity to 'drive' it correctly.....which is proven every day in the political arena, and in the family setting.

When you read the bible a lot of people are convince and see all the miracles that Jesus and the apostle do, like curing blindness, walk on water etc. and start to follow him. So why not let him stay on earth and show people that he can do all these things, im pretty sure that would convince most people, rather than letting him get crucified.

Why do you think Jesus performed miracles? Did you know that every one of them was a foregleam of things to come under the rulership of his Kingdom? ...Healing the sick...raising the dead...ending people's pain and suffering.(Revelation 21:2-4)

In the beginning of his ministry, God gave Jesus the ability through his spirit to perform supernatural feats but they were not to last much longer than the end of the first century. Do you know why they stopped?

Paul explains....

1 Corinthians 13:11-13
"When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child. . . . .Now, however, these three remain: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love."

The traits of a spiritual 'child' need to see something in order to be convinced. The miracles that Jesus performed attracted a lot of attention....some of it good, some not so good....but Paul inferred that the traits of a child had to give way to the maturity of a grown man. The gifts that were given to provide evidence of God's backing were to cease because the Christians had to grow up....that means that the three remaining qualities of a mature Christian are "faith, hope and love"....not miracles. These three now attract the right-hearted ones who want to serve God in the Christian ministry. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)

Imagine if Jesus after his resurrection instead of disappearing had walked straight into the palace of Pontius Pilate and said "Do you believe me now?" Im rather sure that would have convinced pretty much everyone. But instead humans and Christians have to go through years of torture and them torturing others to end up with people completely confused about who God, Jesus is. And whether its even true or not. Jesus could have walked around today keep doing miracles and there would be no doubt. The solution that God chose were probably the worse one, if you ask me. Especially if you count the amount of death that follow in this confusion.

If that was the case, then people would not need faith...just tricks to tickle their fancy. (Hebrews 11:6) The Pharisees asked Jesus to perform tricks for them and he refused.

On one of the occasions when Jesus fed the multitudes, the crowd found him the next day and he asked them if they had come just for the free food? Jesus and his Father need a deeper reason for us to show them loyalty, no matter what the devil throws at us to make us want to give up, they want to see what we are made of. Like Job, we need strong faith to endure trials.

Continuing from the last part, you now have a promise of something amazing at the end of the tunnel of eternal life and an Earth where lions play with small children, if only you throw all common sense away and put your faith and hope in God. Which again makes no sense, people that do not believe in Christianity, doesn't do it simply because they don't want to or because they don't like the idea of being able to live forever in total happiness and harmony. But because the way God have chosen to reveal or not to reveal himself to us, is plain and simply stupid and done in an unreasonable way to expect anyone to buy into it. And again asking people to ignore all the stuff he have done throughout the bible of things that we consider immoral, is asking a lot I think, without as much as offering an explanation. I honestly think that would be the least he could do.

God is a rewarder. He does not expect us to go through all that the devil has done in this world with no reward for our efforts. It's not called a "cramped and narrow road" for nothing....and Jesus said that "few" will be traveling that road, with the majority preferring the easy road, which leads to death. (Matthew 7:13-14) We choose our own path, for our own reasons.

Again, Hebrews 11:6...
"Moreover, without faith it is impossible to please God well, for whoever approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him."

What God is offering, is not going to appeal to everyone....the devil will see to it that he is painted in the worse possible way. God owes them nothing you see, because they already have his most precious gift....life. It is we who need him...he does not need us at all. He tells us what his requirements are for everlasting life in paradise and it is up to us to prove ourselves worthy of the opportunity he offers to all....he does not need to prove anything to anyone.

And I don't really understand it, as a believer what do you think when you read some of the things God do, like ordering the killing of everyone in a city, so not even the animals are to be kept alive? Do people that believe just ignore it? or do you just find an excuse, that these people had it coming, children etc. could just behave, I really don't get it?

I trust that God knows more about everything than I do. His vantage point means that he sees all and knows even what people are thinking. His justice is perfect and he is the arbiter of life and death. No one has died at his hand who didn't deserve to.

The other thing to consider is that God also has the power to restore lives that have been lost. In the resurrection, he promises to resurrect 'both the righteous and the unrighteous' on the basis of the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ. (John 5:28-29; Acts 24:15)

It is better to stop judging God from our limited human perspective and just trust that the Creator knows what he's doing and wants to grant everlasting life to all......but not everyone wants what he is offering on his terms. They want life, but on their own terms.....that is not what is offered.

2 Peter 3:9...
"Jehovah is not slow concerning his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance."

So it is not God's desire that anyone perish, but unless they accept his terms they will not be offered anything else.

TagliatelliMonster · May 15, 2019

Deeje said:
It was a symbolism, reinforcing the principles behind the law. Israel understood the principle. It served as a constant reminder of their need for a saviour.....with a permanent and everlasting sacrifice.

How does killing a scapegoat for the wrongdoings of others, accomplish any of this?

What would an atheist know or appreciate about any of it?

Things either make sense or they don't. Me believing the story to be fiction or non-fiction is irrelevant to its internal concistency and sensibility.

Jesus was formerly a spirit being whose life was transferred to the body of a human whose perfect life was laid down to redeem the human race, sold into slavery by their first parents.

You made that claim already. I'm asking questions about it.

As a 100% human being,

Can a 100% human being resurect the dead and turn water into wine?
That doesn't seem correct. Clearly, this "100%" thing can't be correct.

he willingly laid down that human life, and after being tortured and murdered in the cruelest way

Just "cruel" will be fine. It's by far not the cruelest.

But okay, so he laid down that human life. So? Couldn't he do it a trillion times over and not even sweat?
He's god, right? Doesn't seem like much of a loss or a bother to an all powerfull all knowing immortal being...

, his God brought him back to life as a reward

His God? Jesus isn't God?
I think quite some people would consider that blasphemous.

for carrying out a very difficult and selfless mission

If you are an immortal, all knowing, all powerfull being.... how then could anything be "very difficult".
Especially something like this, where he didn't even have to really do anything, except just undergo whatever those guys were doing to him for a short period of time?

He didn't need to do that, but he loved us enough to suffer on our behalf.

Still no explanation on how that makes any sense

If you don't want that benefit applied to you, then rest assured it won't. You actually have to qualify for it.

I think the entire idea is completely unethical, immoral, unjust and simply non-sensical.

Why would anyone even try to explain any of it to someone who cannot comprehend spiritual things? It would be like trying to explain color to someone born blind.

Nice defense of your faith.
Aren't you supposed to always be prepared to give a reason for the faith that you have? ;-)

When justice demands something....who receives the payment?

Sometimes, depending on the type of crime, victims get some recompense which has to be paid by the guilty.

No justice system that I know off, or that I would call just, offers to punish a scapegoat in order to be able to forgive the guilty. That's insane. If you want to forgive the guilty, then just forgive the guilty. Punishing scapegoats instead is one of the most immoral things one can do.

And for the godless, it never will.....perhaps you should stop trying?

So when you expect people to convert to your religion, you expect them to start believing a story that doesn't make sense to them?

Because as you say, "for the godless, it never will...."

It's because I see through this nonsense that I am an atheist.

Nimos · May 15, 2019

Deeje said:
Who told you that? Free will is nothing like that. It was never that kind of freedom. As our rightful Sovereign, God is the one who sets the boundaries for our existence. We are free to operate within those parameters. We can make a thousand decisions every day based on our free will, but it can never go outside of God's sovereign will.

The whole reason for the existence of "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" was because God assigned himself as the arbiter of those decisions. When humans broke away from their Creator, thinking that they could make their own decisions about what is good and what is evil...they failed. Many people can't tell the difference.
In a world ruled by the devil, that is no surprise. (1 John 5:19; 1 John 2:15-17)

He made one rule and expected his children to obey him. He decided what the punishment was for breaking his law because of how serious the consequences would be. Don't humans do that too? Isn't the penalty something to consider before one commits a crime? If you don't break the law, you have nothing to fear.

It doesn't make sense unless you put it into a context that you do understand.....like the laws of the land for example. Why do we get into trouble for breaking the road rules, like speeding or running a stop light? Not rocket science, is it? Those laws exist for the protection of other drivers, as well as ourselves. If we are free willed and decide that we can drive at whatever speed we like, or that we will ignore the traffic lights....do we want to live in a place where those freedoms exist without stiff punishment?

Free will can never be absolutely free because we are confronted with the consequences of our decisions. If we were exceeding the speed limit on a particularly dangerous curve, ignoring the posted speed sign, and killed someone or even a car full of people.....would you expect a penalty to be applied for your careless disregard for the safety of others? Every human conflict is the result of someone abusing their free will, both domestically and internationally.

No one is granted absolute freedom because we do not have the wisdom or the maturity to 'drive' it correctly.....which is proven every day in the political arena, and in the family setting.

But he didn't just make one law, he started out with one law, which then turned into loads. That either you do as God wants or you die, the bible is filled with laws and rules that end up in people dying, whenever God think they do something wrong.

Besides it makes little sense to compare human laws with those of a God, as if these are to be equally understood. Most human laws are made to secure equal rights for humans and to make secure societies. In some cases these are misused to suppress people. But if we ignore the misused laws and look only at the other ones, these are arguable made because there is a reason behind them being so, having people driving like maniacs, is not only an issue for themselves and anyone else in the car, but also for everyone else on the road. Therefore it make sense trying to prevent it, by making laws that punish those that do. The reason we have to make a law like that, is because we are forced to follow the physical laws, that make sure that the higher the speed of two objects that collide with each other the more severe the damage is. If we assume that this weren't the case and nothing would happen if someone slammed into something with 200 km/h, we wouldn't have such law as it wouldn't matter.

So humans make laws because we live in a world, that follows natural laws that can end up causing damage to others. But if God exist he is above these laws as it is claimed that he made everything, therefore he could have made things in whatever way he wanted them to be. Also he did not have to place the tree of knowledge in the Garden. So its not really a matter of free will or not, but why God chose to add laws that made no sense in the first place, or said in another way, why did he plant the tree in the garden?. So I don't think its an excuse or even reasonable to compare humans laws with those of a God that can decide and change anything whenever he chooses to, even the physical laws.

Deeje said:
Why do you think Jesus performed miracles? Did you know that every one of them was a foregleam of things to come under the rulership of his Kingdom? ...Healing the sick...raising the dead...ending people's pain and suffering.(Revelation 21:2-4)

In the beginning of his ministry, God gave Jesus the ability through his spirit to perform supernatural feats but they were not to last much longer than the end of the first century. Do you know why they stopped?

Paul explains....

1 Corinthians 13:11-13
"When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child. . . . .Now, however, these three remain: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love."

The traits of a spiritual 'child' need to see something in order to be convinced. The miracles that Jesus performed attracted a lot of attention....some of it good, some not so good....but Paul inferred that the traits of a child had to give way to the maturity of a grown man. The gifts that were given to provide evidence of God's backing were to cease because the Christians had to grow up....that means that the three remaining qualities of a mature Christian are "faith, hope and love"....not miracles. These three now attract the right-hearted ones who want to serve God in the Christian ministry. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)

That a child need or demand more than blind faith, hope and love is definitely a good thing. They are trying to understand the world they live in and in order to do that, they need or ought to understand what they have to deal with. Whether that is a God or a physical thing, expecting anyone to just blindly accept something based on faith is to encourage ignorance. So Paul is clearly mistaken, when it comes to common sense and rational thinking, if you ask me.
Why not just have faith and hope in everything, why spend a lot of energy trying to cure diseases or understanding the universe, why not simply have faith and hope in God, that the reason people get sick and die is for the greater good since God made it that way?

Deeje said:
If that was the case, then people would not need faith...just tricks to tickle their fancy. (Hebrews 11:6) The Pharisees asked Jesus to perform tricks for them and he refused.

On one of the occasions when Jesus fed the multitudes, the crowd found him the next day and he asked them if they had come just for the free food? Jesus and his Father need a deeper reason for us to show them loyalty, no matter what the devil throws at us to make us want to give up, they want to see what we are made of. Like Job, we need strong faith to endure trials.

It wouldn't change anything in terms of faith, besides maybe make it even stronger as it would help people have faith in God's plan as it is written in the bible. Miracles is not the opposite of faith or a mean to remove faith, in fact there are lots of people that believe in miracles that claim that this is God or whatever that turned them into believers. So if what you are saying is correct, these people ought to be atheist right?

Deeje said:
I trust that God knows more about everything than I do. His vantage point means that he sees all and knows even what people are thinking. His justice is perfect and he is the arbiter of life and death. No one has died at his hand who didn't deserve to.

The other thing to consider is that God also has the power to restore lives that have been lost. In the resurrection, he promises to resurrect 'both the righteous and the unrighteous' on the basis of the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ. (John 5:28-29; Acts 24:15)

It is better to stop judging God from our limited human perspective and just trust that the Creator knows what he's doing and wants to grant everlasting life to all......but not everyone wants what he is offering on his terms. They want life, but on their own terms.....that is not what is offered.

2 Peter 3:9...
"Jehovah is not slow concerning his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance."

So it is not God's desire that anyone perish, but unless they accept his terms they will not be offered anything else.

So if I understand you correct, its a mixture of all the things I mentioned. From a moral stand point, these actions are ignored and the people had it coming because they didn't behave. And this you justify, with a verse that God will resurrect even the unrighteous.

You don't see any conflicts here? Clearly based on the bible God want certain people dead, he clearly state several places that certain people that do not do his will, will be destroyed. So what might make most sense if we are to make these contradictions fit with each other, is that God resurrect them so he can punish them forever. Otherwise you would have to explain how God can want someone to be destroyed to then resurrect them and throw them into heaven afterwards. And explain why Jesus were definitely lying when he said, that only those that do his fathers will, will get into heaven.

From a moral point of view, it should also be possible for you to judge God actions, knowing he is a God that can do anything, that if he doesn't like certain people that he could simply kill them instantly, like he does several places in the bible. For instant those that go into his tent and look at the Ark, I think, is destroyed, if I recall correct. That girl that turns and look at the city and is instantly killed. There is no logical reason for God having the Jews kill so many people in the way he ordered them to, especially if he is going to resurrect them and show them love afterwards anyway. It doesn't really fit very well together.

So again, when you talk about faith, hope and love. You very last sentence argue the exact opposite, I think.

Deeje said:
So it is not God's desire that anyone perish, but unless they accept his terms they will not be offered anything else.

This has nothing to do with faith, hope or love. but rather submit, obedience and fear.

Jesus sacrifice, why?

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