Top Ten Reasons Why Jesus is Not God

Pete in Panama said:

Trailblazer said: Jesus never claimed to be God....
Pete in Panama said: ...Sure he did (from page 64 of this book here)...

A. He who has seen Me has seen the Father. (John 14:9)
B. I and My Father are one. (John 10:30)
C. I am He (the Father). (John 13:19)
D. I am in the Father and the Father in Me. (John 14:11)
E. And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me. (John 12:45)Of course you didn't, and at the same time other folks did.

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Those verses are not Jesus claiming to be God. If Jesus was God Jesus would have said "I am God" but Jesus never said that.

None of those verses mean that Jesus was God in the flesh, they mean that God was perfectly reflected in Jesus and that they were one in purpose.

I go by what Baha'u'llah wrote, not by what I want to believe. What Baha'u'llah wrote is very clear. The Essence of God cannot become a man. That means that Jesus was not the Essence of God in the flesh.

“Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49

Jesus was not God incarnated in the flesh. Jesus was God manifested in the flesh:

1 Timothy 3:16
King James Bible
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Reading the entire verse and the verse in context it is clear that the "he" in "I am he" does not refer to the Father. Jesus is not saying he is the Father in that verse.

John 13
18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

whirlingmerc said:

However the threads context was a Muslim video concerning this topic and a Muslim would not believe in Jesus pre-existence in being the word that made the universe the 'let there be' of the Father and a Muslim would not believe the world was made FOR Jesus as the New Testament claims.

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I think that the Muslims do believe in the pre-existence of Jesus, but they do not believe that Jesus made the Universe because they believe that God made the Universe.

Where in the New Testament does it say that the world was made for Jesus?

Trailblazer said:

Those verses are not Jesus claiming to be God. If Jesus was God Jesus would have said "I am God" but Jesus never said that.

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Although, I believe there are places throughout the NT which show Jesus is God. I think the reason Jesus never came right out and said the words, "I am God" is simply because His purpose in coming to the earth was to become flesh, lower Himself into human form, so as to pay for the sins of humanity. Not only that, but the scriptures say ....
who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Philippians 2;6-8

From His position of humanity and humility, I don't believe Jesus had any intention of going around proclaiming that He was God.

Trailblazer said:

I think that the Muslims do believe in the pre-existence of Jesus, but they do not believe that Jesus made the Universe because they believe that God made the Universe.

Where in the New Testament does it say that the world was made for Jesus?

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For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
Colossians 1:16

Trailblazer said:

Baha’is believe that Messiah has come and gone and his name was Baha’u’llah: Prophecy Fulfilled Webpage

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Did Bahá'u'lláh.....

Make the blind see again?
Cure the lepers?
Made the paralytic walk?
Healed hemorrhages?
Cast out demons?
Raised the dead back to life?
Control nature?

He didn't?

Because my Messiah did this things.

Spartan said:

Tsk tsk...

First of all, it would be correct to say that Jesus is deity incarnated in a human body. He is not "man" in the complete species sense of the intended meaning of that scripture.

Fast forward to the Book of Daniel, which was written at a time when the “son of man” phrase had a specific and known meaning. In the context of Daniel 7:13, where one "like a son of man" comes to the Ancient of Days (Almighty God) and is given dominion and sovereign power and universal worship of the sort that God alone possesses, the significance of Jesus' "son of man" usage cannot be overstated. It is functionally equivalent to saying that the one like a son of man is rightful heir and successor to the divine throne. "Son of man" is essentially the same as "Son of God" in this context. And if the person in Daniel 7:13-14 is only someone “like” a son of man, then it certainly implies there must be some differences. Otherwise it would say something like, “A son of man” came before the Ancient of Days.”

In addition, at the time Numbers 23:19 was written, God had not yet become man (Christ), so the statement does not necessarily preclude a future incarnation.

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The Book of Daniel was not written by someone named "Daniel".... Daniel is based on a popular character and a Ugarite poem from the northcoast Canaananites 1300 years earlier.

InChrist said:

For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
Colossians 1:16

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So your version of God creates and then destroys his perfect creation.

sooda said:

So your version of God creates and then destroys his perfect creation.

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Doesn't destroy the perfect, just what has become imperfect and tainted by sin.

sooda said:

The Book of Daniel was not written by someone named "Daniel".... Daniel is based on a popular character and a Ugarite poem from the northcoast Canaananites 1300 years earlier.

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That's your theory. I doubt there is credible evidence to support that.

MJFlores said:

Did Bahá'u'lláh.....

Make the blind see again?
Cure the lepers?
Made the paralytic walk?
Healed hemorrhages?
Cast out demons?
Raised the dead back to life?
Control nature?

He didn't?

Because my Messiah did this things.

View attachment 29036

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Jesus didn't do those things either because it's mythological, not literal history.

Saint Frankenstein said:

Jesus didn't do those things either because it's mythological, not literal history.

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Prove it.

Spartan said:

Prove it.

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You can't prove a negative. It's on you to prove he did those things. No one seemed to care enough to write about him while he was alive, so that's evidence enough that it didn't happen. Rotting corpses don't come back to life, sorry.

Saint Frankenstein said:

You can't prove a negative. It's on you to prove he did those things. No one seemed to care enough to write about him while he was alive, so that's evidence enough that it didn't happen. Rotting corpses don't come back to life, sorry.

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First of all, YOU made a claim, i.e.: "Jesus didn't do those things either because it's mythological, not literal history."

It's up to you to back up your claim. Otherwise you can throw anything you want against the wall to see what sticks without having the personal responsibility to back it up.

Second, your claim that a resurrection doesn't happen, then two things about that: 1. It's happened many times, apart from Jesus. An English preacher by the name of Smith Wigglesworth raised several people from the dead. Other people confirmed it. 2. Science has never proven that God and the supernatural do not and cannot exist. So your claim is not based in science.

Spartan said:

First of all, YOU made a claim, i.e.: "Jesus didn't do those things either because it's mythological, not literal history."

It's up to you to back up your claim. Otherwise you can throw anything you want against the wall to see what sticks without having the personal responsibility to back it up.

Second, your claim that a resurrection doesn't happen, then two things about that: 1. It's happened many times, apart from Jesus. An English preacher by the name of Smith Wigglesworth raised several people from the dead. Other people confirmed it. 2. Science has never proven that God and the supernatural do not and cannot exist. So your claim is not based in science.

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It's Christianity that made the claim first, I'm merely dismissing it as I am not convinced and no evidence has been presented. It's up to you to provide evidence that the miracles of Jesus happened. I used to be a very devout right-wing Catholic, mind you. Catholicism is rife with miracles. But I no longer believe in any of that because it doesn't make logical sense. There is no evidence for any of it happening. Mind you, I'm not an atheist and I even believe in more gods than you do.

I've never heard of this Wigglesworth person. But regardless, no one has ever brought a decomposing corpse back to life. If they did, it would be the biggest story in all of history and the laws of reality would have to be revised.

Saint Frankenstein said:

It's Christianity that made the claim first, I'm merely dismissing it as I am not convinced and no evidence has been presented. It's up to you to provide evidence that the miracles of Jesus happened. I used to be a very devout right-wing Catholic, mind you. Catholicism is rife with miracles. But I no longer believe in any of that because it doesn't make logical sense. There is no evidence for any of it happening. Mind you, I'm not an atheist and I even believe in more gods than you do.

I've never heard of this Wigglesworth person. But regardless, no one has ever brought a decomposing corpse back to life. If they did, it would be the biggest story in all of history and the laws of reality would have to be revised.

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You should do your homework on Wigglesworth. There's a number of books about him. Long ago one of his elders who served with him spoke at our church and confirmed his miracles.

And if you make a claim you should back it up.

Firemorphic said:

Ok, I'll budge. What is the "Who" in the Islamic concept of God?

We're 100% anti-anthropomorphic, rather more towards your end of the spectrum than perhaps herculean superhero sky deities. Our God-concept is almost indiscernible from Hinduism's high-philosophy regarding Brahman (and even Dharmadhatu) when you take prophets out of the equation.
But I've never personally seen any single post from you demonstrating a tangible, learned understanding of Islam. However, I'll budge, perhaps you'll surprise me.

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That isn't Biblical. And Jesus is in the Bible, associated with the Bible. Your deity concept is thusly different from the Biblical god.

We would call that a 'different god', regardless of your obfuscation and arguments, claiming it is the same god.

I suggest that anyone who wants to know anything about God watch this video. I learned something about what Muslims believe from watching it. What Muslims believe about God is exactly what Baha’is believe about God. I really liked the way they described God on the video, while they were explaining why Jesus cannot be God. Anyone who likes logic owes it to themselves to watch this video.

Any atheists on this forum who want to know the Truth about Jesus and God should watch this video. It is kind of long but it is well worth the time spent.

One difference between Islam and the Baha’i Faith is that Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah was the Return of Christ and the Messiah promised in the Old Testament as well as the Promised One of all the other religions, whereas Muslims believe that Jesus Christ is yet to return to earth. The other difference between Muslims and Baha’is is that Muslims believe that Muhammad was the last and final Prophet that will ever come to earth whereas Baha’is do not believe there will ever be a last or final Prophet.

Baha’is believe that Muhammad was the last Prophet in the Prophetic Cycle of religion, why He was called the Seal of the Prophets. We believe that the Bab and Baha’u’llah ushered in a new religious cycle called the Cycle of Fulfillment, because they “fulfilled” all the prophecies in the Bible and the Quran and all the other religions that preceded them.

Like Baha’is, Muslims believe that Messengers of God have come to earth since the dawn of human history. There are no other religions that teach this. The difference is again is that Muslims believe that Muhammad was the last and final Prophet, just as Jews believe that there will be no more Prophets after the Prophets in their scriptures.

What all the older religions have in common, including Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism, is that they are all waiting for “a Messiah” that was prophesied in their scriptures. Baha’is believe that Messiah has come and gone and his name was Baha’u’llah: Prophecy Fulfilled Webpage[/QUOTE]

What you mean is, your idea of deity, or your idea of 'god'.
Basically, you worship a deity that isn't part of the traditional Christian perspective, nor in the Christian Scriptures. Irrelevant argument, since it's a different religion, and even clearly a different god.

InChrist said:

Doesn't destroy the perfect, just what has become imperfect and tainted by sin.

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So God needed blood sacrifice? The ancient Romans and Greeks also make blood sacrifices to their gods.

hecatomb

Spartan said:

You should do your homework on Wigglesworth. There's a number of books about him. Long ago one of his elders who served with him spoke at our church and confirmed his miracles.

And if you make a claim you should back it up.

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Smith Wigglesworth - A Book Review of Pentecostal Heresy
www.bereanresearchinstitute.com/03_Doctrines/D.0005_Smith_Wigglesworth_A_Book_Review...
Smith Wigglesworth - A Life Ablaze With The Power Of God, by William Hacking, published by Harrison House, Inc, P.O. Box 35035 Tulsa, Oklahoma, 74153, copyright 1972 (by W. Hacking), 1981, and 1995 by Harrison House.

TRINITY LIFE CHURCH LEICESTER – SMITH WIGGLESWORTH FALSE ...
https://bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com/2014/10/trinity-life-church-leicester-great-end...
Oct 23, 2014 · TRINITY LIFE CHURCH LEICESTER – SMITH WIGGLESWORTH FALSE REVIVAL.

His daughter Alice, who assisted at his meetings, was never healed of deafness.

His wife Polly was not healed of the sickness that took her life as a young woman in 1913, and his son died two years later from the sickness that took him away in childhood.