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Inquiring minds want to know... trollers don't
Who said anything about lambing? The shepherds tended their flocks out of doors throughout the warmer part of the year. Only in winter did they keep them under cover. Jesus was not born in winter. It has been calculated to be around October.
Someone needs to read scripture instead of adding their own spin to everything.I think you demonstrate who needs to do their homework.
That would (also) rule out 'Bethlehem in Galilee' in favor of Bethelem near the city of Jerusalem.
Well, in that version of the story, yes. In history and in Mark, and arguably John, no.
I don't find any mention of 'Bethlehem' on your link. Have I missed something?
There are many things that do not involve our worship that are left to our own judgment. The key element here is "worship".
The two main celebrations held in Christendom are both firmly rooted in pagan worship. We have strong Biblical admonition NOT to try to fuse true worship with false worship.
2 Corinthians 6:14-18.....ESV
"Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you, and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty.”
Does this leave room for grafting Christianity over paganism? What is the admonition? "Get out" "separate from them"....only then will God accept us as his "sons and daughters".
When Israel tried blending their worship with that of Baal, God punished them. Elijah's famous confrontation with the Baal prophets demonstrated this. God did not let it continue and put to death those who promoted it.
There is no "Christian" way to celebrate what is in every way, a pagan festival, simply rebranded. Jews did not celebrate birthdays back in ancient times because of its pagan association with astrology. (something God considered detestable) Birth dates were used to cast horoscopes. Can you find me any birthdates or birthday celebrations in the Bible where the person was not pagan, and it did not involve the loss of someone's life?
If Jesus did not celebrate his own birthday for that reason, then why would he approve of such a celebration today? All the customs of Christmas are borrowed from the saturnalia....the gift giving....the gluttonous feasting....and alcohol fuelled merry-making....they changed nothing but the name and grafted in other elements associated with Northern Hemisphere pagan Winter traditions.
Regardless of what you call it, it was never a "Christian" celebration until an apostate church system embraced it and changed the name. Northern Hemisphere winter customs are ridiculous in a Southern Hemisphere climate. Sleighbells and snow in the middle of an Aussie summer just don't mesh.
This is pure justification surely? Christ was not born in December because it is the cold, rainy, sometimes snowy winter time in the Middle East. The shepherds were outdoors tending their flocks when Jesus was born, but in winter, they kept their flocks under cover. The date comes from the saturnalia too. Mithra was the god....very little changed.
Regardless of the customs, the whole world (mostly unchristian) celebrates Christmas as primarily a greed-fest with expensive gifts often given grudgingly for the wrong reason.....the debt is often burdensome. It's an excuse to overindulge in food and alcohol, just as the original was. It is very much a secular holiday in many nations....seen as just a commercial holiday....a very lucrative one. Does that make you cringe? I used to celebrate it.....grew up with it, but as soon as I realised what it really was, I was disgusted and avoided having anything to do with it. But it's amazing what people will justify in order to keep doing what they love.
All very noble pursuits, but can't you do that at any time of year? Should Christians need a date to give them a reason to honour Christ or to help the less fortunate? At Christmastime, those who have no family or who are poor or disadvantaged by mental or physical illness are forced to endure what is to them, often the loneliest and most miserable time of the year. Police will tell you that alcohol fuelled domestic violence is rampant at Christmastime. Poor kids look at how generous santa is to the rich kids and wonder why he was so mean to them? You gloss over what is experienced by the masses at that time of year.
Now I am a bit bemused by this. This implies that our kids are somehow disadvantaged by not receiving Christmas presents...?
When my own kids were at school, they were the envy of other kids because they never had to wait for birthdays or Christmas to get presents. If our children saw something that sparked their interest, if it was affordable and appropriate, they received it as a gift of love, without having to wait for a date to receive it.
When asked "what did you get that for?" by other children, they would be puzzled because we need no excuses to give our children presents....we give them gifts when we want to, all year round. Often when kids see a toy or gadget that is popular, they see Christmas or their birthday as forever away, and often by then the toy has lost its attraction.
We had one young boy tell us that if it wasn't for Christmas or birthdays, he wouldn't get anything. How sad is that?
We often have children's parties for no particular reason, and the host child is the one who gives gifts to all the other kids. There is no spoilt brat throwing tantrums because it's their special day. So please don't give me the deprived children nonsense.......OK?
If our kids get presents from well meaning relatives at Christmas, they know what it's all about.
One day to honour God? Where will I find that? Where will I find Paul advocating a Sabbath observance for Christians, many of whom were former pagans? Sabbath was for Jews only, as was circumcision, not included in the "necessary" or "essential" "requirements" for Christians. (Acts 15:28-29)
There were no festivals or holidays to be observed by Christians, unlike those precisely prescribed for Israel.......there was just ONE observance that Jesus said to hold each year....the observance of the memorial of his death. It replaced the Passover for Jewish Christians and was held annually on the same date. There is no question about this date because it is clearly stated in scripture.
Christendom adopted Easter to graft over this annual observance and completely corrupted it. All the customs of Easter (even its name) are pagan to its bootstraps. From the dawn service, to the hot cross buns, to the rabbits and eggs all tied into a fertility festival honouring a pagan goddess of Spring. Her name was pronounced "Easter".
Do some homework Shmogie....please! I know you mean well, but you are dead wrong about these things. You cannot Christianise paganism....you only paganise the Christianity...
Your defense of sunday worship is interesting, but you apparently do not know the history of why it became the Christian worship day.You can assume that if you wish.
You can also assume that. Of course I disagree.
I guess one has to wonder why "Christians" need to borrow pagan holidays and customs in the first place? Are there not 365 days in a year? Can they not come up with their own celebrations and customs? Why graft "Christianity" over paganism at all?
If you really know the history of the church then you know the answer to that.
In view of 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 IMO, you have completely missed the point. Anything that is spiritually "unclean" is unacceptable to God....so unless we "separate" from those offensive things, God will not accept us as his "sons and daughters"......could Paul have made it any clearer?
Was the worship of the golden calf acceptable to God because the Israelites called it "a festival to Jehovah"? How did he respond?
Why did Elijah make the Israelites choose which god they worshipped when they tried to fuse true worship with Baal worship?
What has corrupting power over one's faith is pretending that false worship can be mixed with true worship without offending God. He won't prevent people from making those decisions, but he will hold them accountable I believe. It's not like we don't have Biblical precedents.
And that right there is the basis of the problem. It doesn't matter if humans care....it matters if God cares. Is it just the big things that count with God?
Luke 16:10...
"The person faithful in what is least is faithful also in much, and the person unrighteous in what is least is unrighteous also in much."
Again, does it matter to God? Is it being faithful in what is least in view of 2 Corinthians 6:14-18??
The whole celebration was never "Christian" to begin with, so why would any Christian want to engage in it? December 25th with all its customs was originally celebrated in honor of a false god. To then use that exact same date and customs and pretend that Christ and his Father would approve of it just by changing the name, is a little self-deluding IMO.
Again, the instrument used to put Jesus to death is not important unless people want to make an idol of it. The Command of God to his people was NOT to make an image of anything to be used in connection with their worship. If the origins of the cross as an ancient (and disgusting) religious symbol was not so sordid, it might not be so bad, but we see the cross in ancient art as a symbol of sex and phallic worship.....so the devil has a great many "Christians" deceived as far as I can see.
Cherishing an image of something used to kill your best friend is actually bizarre. What if Jesus had been hung on a gallows or run through with a spear.....what then?
The instrument used (as described in the Bible) is a "stauros" which means an upright stake. There is no cross in the Bible.
Art has its place, but how are these "art"? How is the "Christmas tree" connected to Christ? How are birthday celebrations that mimic ancient spiritistic practices connected to Christianity? Why birthday candles? Why birthday "wishes"? If the Jews didn't celebrate birthdays (nor did they ever record birth dates) because it was a pagan practice tied in to false worship, why would a Christian even want to imitate them?
Many of our congregations meet on Saturday and some even meet on week nights if they share a Kingdom Hall. The weekend is usually a good time when a lot of people don't have to work. We have no 'special' day...it's just what fits in with the majority of the congregations. Where did you get the idea that we only meet on Sundays?
Because there is no Sabbath observance for Christians, should we imagine that we can't meet on any day of the week that isn't dedicated to a false god?
We would have to move to another planet. We didn't invent the names used in the current calendar, nor do we worship those gods.....that calendar was a product of Pope Gregory.......such a good Christian.....
What???? Christendom holds it services on Sunday because it is a holy day to them...no? As a former SDA you already know that the Jewish Sabbath was our Saturday. Does the fact that it is a day named after Saturn mean that it taints the Sabbath for Jews living in western nations?
"A delicious form of martyrdom"....really? Or is it just an attempt to be "faithful in what is least" so that we don't "strain at gnats and gulp down camels"?
Oh please...I have been on both sides of this fence and I made my investigations very thoroughly. The way God responded to Israel's many excursions into false worship leaves me in no doubt. Even the seemingly small things can be a test of our resolve to remain free of 'spiritually unclean' things. We are told to separate ourselves from them....not to jump into bed with them. How contaminated does something have to be before it makes you sick? Many of the things that can be life threatening to humans are microscopic.....you don't even know when they have entered your body.
What makes something "unclean" to God may not seem like much at all to someone who can justify what God condemns....but we have to love the truth, not the lies. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)
That cuddly kitten may prove to carrying a deadly disease called denial.....one bite is all it takes.
So, I assume, you believe Satan has messed with a whole lot of the Bible in order to mislead the believer. Pretty much renders any exegesis of the book completely untrustworthy doesn't it?
No, you misunderstand (you're more astute than that)....he's influenced peoples' interpretation of it! I mean, professed Christians are told it's ok to kill their brothers if they live in an opposing country. That makes them wrong, not Scripture!
But that's what exegesis is: critical explanations or interpretations of a text. And in light of your claim
Yes...even if it was a correct understanding! Did you read my edit, about killing?
@Skwim , iow, a person searching for accurate understanding of the Scriptures, would have to look at those teachers' actions. If they teach doctrinethat maybe even sounds right, the love they have for others, especially brothers, should be examined. -John 13:34-35.
And you're saying that the Bible says this, and with no qualification? If so please cite the chapter and verse. If it isn't in the Bible then who is telling Christians such a thing?
If I understand you correctly, I gave one: John 13:34..."I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you..." (To what extent did Jesus love? He "gave his life for others". His followers should be willing to do the same....it's a "commandment".)
Ever since Constantine the Great, many leaders of Christendom have encouraged their followers to support their respective States in times of war. They would rather have the State's approval than God's. But Christians should feel as did the Apostles, at Acts of the Apostles 5:29.