Are you closed minded?

Bob the Unbeliever · May 12, 2019

Jollybear said:
How you know it gets diluted?.

How could it not? Perfect being? Fallible humans. Impossible for a fallible human to *not* twist the message in unforeseeable ways.

Jollybear said:
Plus, even if it did get diluted, perhaps thats not a terrible thing. When bold coffee gets diluted it becomes medium or soft coffee. Not a big deal..

So we get the wrong message? That's "good"? How? There are in excess of 45,000 different "messages" so far-- based on the number of different brands of 'christian'.

So it most certainly is a terrible thing.

Jollybear said:
Oh HE CAN communicate to anyone. But, also, you assume he communicates only to gullible and stupid people..

That would seem to be the case-- because these are only sort of people claiming to speak for god-- and insisting that they-- and only they--- have the Only Official Message™ .

Jollybear said:
No, thats just your negative perception. Its not lazy or ineffective for God to set up a chain of authority system. Why do you think otherwise?

Fair enough-- it could also be a very evil-- a sadistically malicious god, instead of merely lazy/incompetent.

It's not an assumption -- it is the consequences of your descriptions!

charlie sc · May 13, 2019

Trailblazer said:
I do not WANT a relationship with God but even if I did, I could not be IN a relationship with God because God keeps Himself completely hidden... How does one relate to an invisible God?

Then why do you worship something you don't want a relationship with, get angry at and know it's invisible? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you're here to tell people they're doomed.

Trailblazer said:
There you go again, equating God to a human being. God is not a human being so you cannot draw those parallels about abusive relationships. God cannot be abused because God is not a human being.

Christians seem to think that man was created in god's image. Also, we seem to know how to treat other sentient life forms(humans), therefore, it makes sense to treat other sentient life similarly. Even some pets will know and become afraid when you get angry at them. Therefore, your continual attempt to deflect your anger makes me more concerned how you treat people.

Trailblazer said:
I wish there was no God

Why?

MJFlores · May 13, 2019

charlie sc said:
Are you absolutely certain god exists or not?

With absolute certainty, my God exists and He is the Father and God of my Lord Jesus Christ.
With absolute certainty, their god/goddess/gods/goddesses/lord/lords do not exist
There, those are the two absolute certainties

And that is from the Bible:

1 Corinthians 8:5-7 New International Version (NIV)
For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

But not everyone possesses this knowledge.

Bob the Unbeliever · May 13, 2019

MJFlores said:
With absolute certainty, my God exists and He is the Father and God of my Lord Jesus Christ.
With absolute certainty, their god/goddess/gods/goddesses/lord/lords do not exist
There, those are the two absolute certainties

And that is from the Bible:

1 Corinthians 8:5-7 New International Version (NIV)
For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

But not everyone possesses this knowledge.

Hmmm... it appears your god plays Special Favorites, which is immoral. Oh well.

Milton Platt · May 13, 2019

charlie sc said:
Concerning god, most atheists are agnostic atheists or soft atheists. Therefore, their belief has some form of uncertainty. I, and I think other soft atheists, believe god(s) are possible, but unlikely.

Contrary to this, it seems most theists are absolutely certain god(s) exist. I’ve noticed, some theists will even say it’s possible their god does not exist but immediately deny what they said with some tangent. Therefore, they’re absolutely certain.

I propose that people who are absolutely certain about a topic, especially one as controversial as this, are closed minded. People who are closed minded cannot accept new information to the contrary; they’ll dismiss it without a thought. Even Socrates understood the immense problems with certainty. Even science does not use absolutely certainty.

Are you absolutely certain god exists or not?
VS Do you believe it’s most likely god exist but possible god does not exist or it’s unlikely but possible?

Here, I’ll go first.

I think it’s possible but unlikely god(s) exist. The end.

Let’s see how open minded or closed minded you are.

As a tracker, I'm going to see how many atheists vs theists answer this question. I'll try update this as much as I can and I won't name people to respect their identity

Atheists: 15 - Theists: 11
Uncertain atheists: 12 - Uncertain theists: 4
Absolutely Certain atheists: 3 - Absolutely Certain theists: 7

I'm on the atheist side. I think it is possible, but no more likely than faeries or goblins. In other words, I allow for a possibility but see the likelihood no higher than that the sun will not come up tomorrow. So put a mark for me in whatever column is appropriate.

Milton Platt · May 13, 2019

SalixIncendium said:
I am certain of what I've experienced. Nothing more.

If experiences are subjective, how can you be certain of them?

SalixIncendium · May 13, 2019

Milton Platt said:
If experiences are subjective, how can you be certain of them?

Because they’re not.

Experience is empirical, not subjective.

MJFlores · May 13, 2019

Bob the Unbeliever said:
Hmmm... it appears your god plays Special Favorites, which is immoral. Oh well.

View attachment 29013

Please elucidate.

It is partially true that God chooses His people
and people simply could not choose God.
If you call chosen ones, special favorites.
And when is that immoral?

Trailblazer · May 13, 2019

charlie sc said:
Then why do you worship something you don't want a relationship with, get angry at and know it's invisible? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you're here to tell people they're doomed.

Who said I worship God? I said I believe in God, but that is not the same thing.
I should worship God, but that is another matter altogether. I do try.
I am certainly not here to tell people they are doomed.

charlie sc said:
Christians seem to think that man was created in god's image. Also, we seem to know how to treat other sentient life forms(humans), therefore, it makes sense to treat other sentient life similarly. Even some pets will know and become afraid when you get angry at them. Therefore, your continual attempt to deflect your anger makes me more concerned how you treat people.

Why would you think I get angry at people just because I get angry at God?
I can get angry at God without hurting Him, but I would hurt people if I got angry at them so I try not to do that.

charlie sc said:
Why?

Because in many ways, it would make my life easier if there was no God.
I could then live for myself instead of having to worry about what God wants me to do all the time.

Bob the Unbeliever · May 13, 2019

MJFlores said:
Please elucidate.

It is partially true that God chooses His people
and people simply could not choose God.
If you call chosen ones, special favorites.
And when is that immoral?

It is always immoral to elevate some small subset of people above all the rest.

If you don't understand why? Well.... that's not a testament to your religion, is it?

MJFlores · May 14, 2019

Bob the Unbeliever said:
It is always immoral to elevate some small subset of people above all the rest.

If you don't understand why? Well.... that's not a testament to your religion, is it?

Why is that immoral?

not conforming to accepted standards of morality.
Definition of IMMORAL

Immorality is the violation of moral laws, norms or standards. Immorality is normally applied to people or actions, or in a broader sense, it can be applied to groups or corporate bodies, and works of art.

A religion becomes immoral if it violates moral laws [(in some systems of ethics) an absolute principle defining the criteria of right action (whether conceived as a divine ordinance or a truth of reason).- hence the bible]

Having favorites isn't immoral.
I have four [4] dogs, even from them I have a favorite
It surely does not make me immoral.
Maybe you should use another term to effectively carry your message across.

charlie sc · May 14, 2019

Trailblazer said:
I should worship God

Why should you worship a god that's horrible?

Trailblazer said:
I can get angry at God without hurting Him

I don't think this god person is real, so I don't think it matters either way.

Trailblazer said:
I could then live for myself instead of having to worry about what God wants me to do all the time.

Why don't you just live your life the way you want to? I do and other atheists do. We don't worry about what any of the millions of supposedly existent gods want. And if a bad god did exist, I wouldn't worship it nor would I join a religion that worships this god.

shunyadragon · May 14, 2019

syo said:
Logic says this.

Selfish logic can say anything mindlessly.

shunyadragon · May 14, 2019

syo said:
He had other universe.

It is best to assume that if God exists God is beyond all universes, and fallible human efforts to define God from an ancient cultural perspective. .

shunyadragon · May 14, 2019

charlie sc said:
Why should you worship a god that's horrible?

That depends on the nature of God and not the archaic tribal view of God of ancient religions like Judaism and Christinaity,

I don't think this god person is real, so I don't think it matters either way.

The Baha'i Faith does not propose a 'god person' exists that is an ancient view of God from the human perspective.

Why don't you just live your life the way you want to?

This is a rather egocentric way of approaching life, which is what many people do deciding their religion based on which shoes fit.

I do and other atheists do.

Which is your right to do so.

We don't worry about what any of the millions of supposedly existent gods want. And if a bad god did exist, I wouldn't worship it nor would I join a religion that worships this god.

IF God exists God wold not be a good nor bad God. I would not worship weather God was a bad nor good God from the human perspective.

charlie sc · May 14, 2019

shunyadragon said:
he Baha'i Faith does not propose a 'god person' exists that is an ancient view of God from the human perspective.

Enlighten me then; how is your god different?

shunyadragon said:
This is a rather egocentric way of approaching life, which is what many people do deciding their religion based on which shoes fit.

Except some religions propose some form of eternal torture, damnation, sin, shame, on and on.

I don't think atheism is the most egocentric approach to life, because there are some philosophies and theories showing the most selfish way to live is actually mostly altruistically. The best life one could have is where their society flourishes just as much as they do. A good society has rippling effects.

shunyadragon said:
Which is your right to do so.

Oh gee, thanks. And you have the right to worship as many gods as you want to worship.

shunyadragon said:
IF God exists God wold not be a good nor bad God. I would not worship weather God was a bad nor good God from the human perspective.

What? We can use our own judgements to determine what is good vs bad. One of our ways to do this is empathy.

From a human perspective? Are you not human? You'd rather worship god from another perspective?

Bob the Unbeliever · May 14, 2019

MJFlores said:
Why is that immoral?.

Elevating a subset of people, into a Special Status, to the detriment of everyone else?

Is the very definition of immorality. The fact you don't get that? Shows your version of a god is a Psychopath.

MJFlores · May 14, 2019

Bob the Unbeliever said:
Elevating a subset of people, into a Special Status, to the detriment of everyone else?

Is the very definition of immorality. The fact you don't get that? Shows your version of a god is a Psychopath.

If everyone else do not obey, then elevation of obedient set of people is logical.

You, yourself wouldn't like to be surrounded with the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers. Or people who indulge themselves with sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like.

I believe, my God is just.
What people do are things immoral.
And being Bob the Unbeliever,
you can't accuse someone whom you do not believe to be immoral psychopath.

shunyadragon · May 14, 2019

charlie sc said:
Enlighten me then; how is your god different?

No need for enlightenment. As I clearly stated specifically the Baha'i Faith does not believe in an anthropomorphic person God.

Except some religions propose some form of eternal torture, damnation, sin, shame, on and on.

Simply, the Baha'i Faith does not.

I don't think atheism is the most egocentric approach to life, because there are some philosophies and theories showing the most selfish way to live is actually mostly altruistically. The best life one could have is where their society flourishes just as much as they do. A good society has rippling effects.

Nobody thinks their view is the egocentric perspective.

Oh gee, thanks. And you have the right to worship as many gods as you want to worship.

True.

What? We can use our own judgements to determine what is good vs bad. One of our ways to do this is empathy.

That does not reflect my post nor your initial post I responded to. You referred to 'bad God(s) probably referring to Biblical Gods. I simply stated the Baha'i view of God cannot be defined as good nor bad from the human perspective. God is simply God.

From a human perspective? Are you not human? You'd rather worship god from another perspective?

The Baha'i Faith does not define God in a narrow cultural perspective as the ancient religions do, and acknowledges the diversity from the human perspective. The Baha'i Faith only considers that our physical existence and the evolving nature of humanity reflect the attributes of God. In reality all views including the belief in no God(s) is from the human perspective.

charlie sc · May 14, 2019

shunyadragon said:
No need for enlightenment. As I clearly stated specifically the Baha'i Faith does not believe in an anthropomorphic person God.

Simply, the Baha'i Faith does not.

Nobody thinks their view is the egocentric perspective.

True.

Great, minimalist and neutral responses. I'll take that as you're conceding in your own way.

shunyadragon said:
I simply stated the Baha'i view of God cannot be defined as good nor bad from the human perspective. God is simply God.

shunyadragon said:
The Baha'i Faith does not define God in a narrow cultural perspective as the ancient religions do, and acknowledges the diversity from the human perspective. The Baha'i Faith only considers that our physical existence and the evolving nature of humanity reflect the attributes of God. In reality all views including the belief in no God(s) is from the human perspective.

The two quotes above contradict each other. You seem confused. You want to define god yet don't want to define god. I can only pray this is not contagious. I have the feeling you won't even attempt to define your god trying not to look foolish to me, as I suspect you know on some level this is foolish, haha

Btw, my reply was Trailblazer as she seems to think god is not love, does not want a relationship with god, gets angry at god and she doesn't seem to like god, but has to worship it.

Are you closed minded?

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