Would you believe in God if holy texts were different

ideogenous_mover said:

...With one simple testament relevant to all of modernity with principles clear as a mountain stream...

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Funny thing is, the principle is actually very clear in the Bible, “love your neighbor as yourself” in that all the law and prophets is fulfilled. But still, I don’t think most people want to accept that.

ideogenous_mover said:

Could the written material actually play a major role in what is stopping you from believing?

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Far as I can remember, I always found belief in Gods to be akin to belief in Aesop's fables characters.

If that is good enough for you, then sure, it could be interesting to have some form of allegorical belief, as opposed to this exacerbated expectation that we have today, as a fully accepted component of religion.

But I don't think that would make for recognizable forms of the Abrahamics.

There are many ways the material could probably be different. In the bible there is an emphasis on war at times, and the morality can be quite ancient and severe. If alternatively, the bible was a pure doctrine of the best clear cut philosophical morals, with no parsing through metaphor and hard to understand riddle-like wisdom, would that make more of an impression on you.

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Definitely. But that is an even greater departure from what Christianity is understood to be. Peter Singer and Derek Parfit would effectively be the best known "prophets" of our time.

What if it even contained science, perhaps conveyed to prophets, telling us how to produce the best medicines or engineer electrics cars the best way.

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Such a radical departure from reality would probably require actual deities and make theism pretty much automatic. It would also have a very significant cultural impact, in ways that I have trouble trying to imagine. The very conception of morality would have to be quite different from ours.

Or organize cities and government most efficiently, in a manner that was straight to the point.

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The knowledge for such is basically mastered already. The challenges are in the field of implementing it, in attaining the necessary mutual acceptance, motivation and cooperation.

To put it in another way: Civical and political organization are inherently hindered and limited by whatever social and cultural shortcomings happen to exist in any given culture and time. They are the expression of the exact form and level of collective insanity of that culture.

Do you think that some alternate scriptural text could help there? How so?

Instead, it obliges you to dig laboriously through ancient stories from the iron age like an archeologist. And from a long story of twists and turns arcane and hard to understand, you wrest from it what you believe is some relevant ingot of wisdom. But what if everything were crystal clear, with no twists and turns and controversy. With one simple testament relevant to all of modernity with principles clear as a mountain stream, with no need for clashing schools of interpretation and debate.

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I think that you will eventually conclude that the difficulty of interpretation is a necessary component of what we currently recognize as religion. It makes possible for people who actually hold values and goals that are at odds with each other to nevertheless profess to be brothers in faith, mostly avoiding the realization that they should be apart.

In its current, mainstream forms, a major role of religion is precisely that of enabling such prolonged postponement of conflict by proposing other, more distanct and abstract goals and values.

Religion arguably must renounce that role of social engineering of dubious value, but that has its own drawbacks. If nothing else, it is a dramatic change that probably should be made gradually and carefully in order to avoid serious, destructive trauma.

It is not just a matter of getting people used to the shallowness of traditional scripture. Actual functional alternatives must be provided and developed. And for that to be possible, interpretation and debate, far from being a hindrance, are much necessary building tools.

1213 said:

Funny thing is, the principle is actually very clear in the Bible, “love your neighbor as yourself” in that all the law and prophets is fulfilled. But still, I don’t think most people want to accept that.

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It seems to me that for many Christians (and for that matter, many non-Christians as well) that is more of a permanent goal than an actual means to other ends.

I do not doubt that many Christians work sincerely and hard at developing that ability. But it is not a simple matter of flipping a figurative switch.

InChrist said:

According to the scriptures it is clear to everyone...

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Romans 1:20-21

Yet, if one refuses to even acknowledge what is clearly obvious concerning God's existence, then they will be oblivious to understanding any further spiritual truths and realities...

But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 2:10-14

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Those are just assertions and threats, I'm not impressed.

InChrist said:

According to the scriptures it is clear to everyone...

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Your scripture is simply incorrect. It is not clear to everyone that your God exists. Unless you believe that every atheist on earth is lying about their beliefs. Do you think I'm lying? I actually believe in your God but I'm just faking it that I don't?

But even worse, that avoids the point I was making before. Believing your God exists is not sufficient for us to know what his expectations or teachings are. This is why Christians are hopelessly divided amongst each other as to what your God actually thinks about anything. If you were an all powerful being who loved everyone and wanted everyone to know the truth about what you think, would you stand for that? Wouldn't you come down here, right now, and clarify things?

ideogenous_mover said:

Could the written material actually play a major role in what is stopping you from believing?

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I won't know the answer to that until someone tells me what real thing 'God' is intended to denote.

ideogenous_mover said:

There are many ways the material could probably be different. In the bible there is an emphasis on war at times, and the morality can be quite ancient and severe. If alternatively, the bible was a pure doctrine of the best clear cut philosophical morals, with no parsing through metaphor and hard to understand riddle-like wisdom, would that make more of an impression on you.

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As a moral statement about modern morality, rather than the Bronze Age morality of the Tanakh, possibly. As it stands, never. (What on earth could justify the sacrifice of one's child to oneself? It's psychotic.)

ideogenous_mover said:

What if it even contained science, perhaps conveyed to prophets, telling us how to produce the best medicines or engineer electrics cars the best way. Or organize cities and government most efficiently, in a manner that was straight to the point.

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Even if I agreed, at least substantially, with the morality, it wouldn't be evidence of the reality of supernatural beings. Powerful beings, maybe, but God would remain an incoherent concept.

ideogenous_mover said:

And from a long story of twists and turns [...] you wrest from it what you believe is some relevant ingot of wisdom.

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That wouldn't distinguish it from much that I read.

ideogenous_mover said:

But what if everything were crystal clear, with no twists and turns and controversy. With one simple testament relevant to all of modernity with principles clear as a mountain stream, with no need for clashing schools of interpretation and debate.

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Were there such an unknown, new, relevant and powerful way of seeing, it's possible but not certain that I'd know it if I saw it; but it still wouldn't be evidence of the supernatural, only of some smart entity.

ideogenous_mover said:

And that's a problem, the fact that spiritual truth is opaque. Maybe that would have been a better thread title: Why is spiritual truth always opaque? It's opaque and arcane no matter which path you go on, looking 360 degrees around yourself to whatever wisdom you want to master. The foibles of the prophet, hero, creation story, or taboo law are everywhere revealed in short anecdotal sayings or verses from which you must pry the meaning, using the lever of years-steeped enlightenment to let the light in. I want real magic... to command flocks of birds with a word, to walk on water, to defeat mortality.

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True magic is the ability to find peace amidst war, clarity in confusion, love for those who hate. Because the world continuously proves that we are doomed to die, dont understand and dont deserve to be happy.

Magic is what gives us the courage to be fair and good when the world isnt.

ideogenous_mover said:

Could the written material actually play a major role in what is stopping you from believing? There are many ways the material could probably be different. In the bible there is an emphasis on war at times, and the morality can be quite ancient and severe. If alternatively, the bible was a pure doctrine of the best clear cut philosophical morals, with no parsing through metaphor and hard to understand riddle-like wisdom, would that make more of an impression on you. What if it even contained science, perhaps conveyed to prophets, telling us how to produce the best medicines or engineer electrics cars the best way. Or organize cities and government most efficiently, in a manner that was straight to the point. Instead, it obliges you to dig laboriously through ancient stories from the iron age like an archeologist. And from a long story of twists and turns arcane and hard to understand, you wrest from it what you believe is some relevant ingot of wisdom. But what if everything were crystal clear, with no twists and turns and controversy. With one simple testament relevant to all of modernity with principles clear as a mountain stream, with no need for clashing schools of interpretation and debate.

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Lets make it simpler-

It does not read like something written by
the greatest possible author.

The story is not believable.

If you dont see what I mean, read the book of mormon,
for a more extreme example.

ideogenous_mover said:

Could the written material actually play a major role in what is stopping you from believing? There are many ways the material could probably be different. In the bible there is an emphasis on war at times, and the morality can be quite ancient and severe. If alternatively, the bible was a pure doctrine of the best clear cut philosophical morals, with no parsing through metaphor and hard to understand riddle-like wisdom, would that make more of an impression on you. What if it even contained science, perhaps conveyed to prophets, telling us how to produce the best medicines or engineer electrics cars the best way. Or organize cities and government most efficiently, in a manner that was straight to the point. Instead, it obliges you to dig laboriously through ancient stories from the iron age like an archeologist. And from a long story of twists and turns arcane and hard to understand, you wrest from it what you believe is some relevant ingot of wisdom. But what if everything were crystal clear, with no twists and turns and controversy. With one simple testament relevant to all of modernity with principles clear as a mountain stream, with no need for clashing schools of interpretation and debate.

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Yes, the written material plays a major role in my beliefs and my faith.
It would be a farce if my belief and my faith has no foundation or
based on someone else's dream or from a shaman


You see, people make their own religions because they have a lot of motivation behind it.
Motivation like being rich or controlling a group of people
We call these religions as false religions and one false religion would lead into another
Sometimes with devastating results


So it is best to have this relationship with God on writing otherwise people would be drinking Kool-Aid laced with cyanide or something.

Sacred Texts in World Religions
Some sacred texts form the cornerstone of a religion, instilling law, character and spirituality in its people; some are narratives of historical figures in the faith. A text might be viewed as the unchanging “Word of God;” other texts are revised and expanded by later generations. Texts can be literal, or metaphorical, or both. This guide shows you how to find online versions, commentary and historical context of scriptures for Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam and Judaism.
Sacred Texts in World Religions

There are basically five [5] sacred text of the five [5] main religions:

1. The Sutras
2. The Bible
3. The Vedas
4. The Quran and Hadith
5. The Tanach, Mishnah, Talmud and Midrash

So how do we streamline our choice?
We simply do not have the time in the world to study these five sacred text.
Further, each book conflicts with the teaching of another book - and these things doesn't mix well.
For me, it is important to know who are the people involved in writing these sacred text.
If we couldn't then it is like taking a bootlegged medicine



An unlabeled spurious sacred texts are like fake drugs that instead of making you better
it will make you worse.

So who wrote these sacred texts?
Are the lives of these people exemplary in nature?
It is hard to believe in a written text written by a man who is:
a fraud or murderer or pedophile or things like that
it would be like having faith on a work which the author, himself does not believe.

ideogenous_mover said:

Could the written material actually play a major role in what is stopping you from believing? There are many ways the material could probably be different. In the bible there is an emphasis on war at times, and the morality can be quite ancient and severe. If alternatively, the bible was a pure doctrine of the best clear cut philosophical morals, with no parsing through metaphor and hard to understand riddle-like wisdom, would that make more of an impression on you. What if it even contained science, perhaps conveyed to prophets, telling us how to produce the best medicines or engineer electrics cars the best way. Or organize cities and government most efficiently, in a manner that was straight to the point. Instead, it obliges you to dig laboriously through ancient stories from the iron age like an archeologist. And from a long story of twists and turns arcane and hard to understand, you wrest from it what you believe is some relevant ingot of wisdom. But what if everything were crystal clear, with no twists and turns and controversy. With one simple testament relevant to all of modernity with principles clear as a mountain stream, with no need for clashing schools of interpretation and debate.

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You are concentrating on the Old Testament, creation and the history of the Jews.

You need not read any of it if it confuses you.

Everything is perfectly crystal clear and simple in the NT. Everything you need to know. You can learn the way to God and salvation in 45 minutes of reading.

The fundamentals never change, but being humans we scramble and scrap over things that are very important to us, but to God ?

If cities and governments were organized along the lines of the New Testament, genuinely, not superficially, we wouldn´t have to live in what, at times, seems like a malign circus.

shmogie said:

You are concentrating on the Old Testament, creation and the history of the Jews.

You need not read any of it if it confuses you.

Everything is perfectly crystal clear and simple in the NT. Everything you need to know. You can learn the way to God and salvation in 45 minutes of reading.

The fundamentals never change, but being humans we scramble and scrap over things that are very important to us, but to God ?

If cities and governments were organized along the lines of the New Testament, genuinely, not superficially, we wouldn´t have to live in what, at times, seems like a malign circus.

Click to expand...

I never did figure how people can know what to pick
and choose from the bible.

As a guide for how to live a good and decent life, of
course, the NT is way way better than the O.

It might be possible for governments to be organized
along NT (NOT OT!) lines... maybe.

But I think the prob goes way deeper than govt
organization..

You take a wolf and breed it into a toy poodle,
but it will still pee on fire hydrants. And try
to tear its toy kangaroo to pieces, shaking it
and growling.

It is pretty amazing now adaptable wolves and
people turn out to be, but, our basic nature,
the creature we, sorry, evolved to be, is not
perfectly suited the way we live now

Audie said:

I never did figure how people can know what to pick
and choose from the bible.

As a guide for how to live a good and decent life, of
course, the NT is way way better than the O.

It might be possible for governments to be organized
along NT (NOT OT!) lines... maybe.

But I think the prob goes way deeper than govt
organization..

You take a wolf and breed it into a toy poodle,
but it will still pee on fire hydrants. And try
to tear its toy kangaroo to pieces, shaking it
and growling.

It is pretty amazing now adaptable wolves and
people turn out to be, but, our basic nature,
the creature we, sorry, evolved to be, is not
perfectly suited the way we live now

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You and I can certainly agree that humanity is far from itś original role.

You believe this role was from evolution, I creation.

The world is screwed up, people are screwing it up.

It certainly could, and should be a whole lot better.

shmogie said:

You and I can certainly agree that humanity is far from itś original role.

You believe this role was from evolution, I creation.

The world is screwed up, people are screwing it up.

It certainly could, and should be a whole lot better.

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I like to believe that some day people will figure out
how to live, and that the people of today will be
as stone throwing cave men by comparison.

MJFlores said:

There are basically five [5] sacred text of the five [5] main religions:

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"We came in search of the secret of immortality, to be like gods, and here we are mortals - more human than ever. If we have not obtained immortality, at least we have obtained reality. We began in a fairy tale and we came to life. But is this life reality? No, it is a thing. Zoom back camera!" - Alejandro Jodorowsky

ideogenous_mover said:

Could the written material actually play a major role in what is stopping you from believing? There are many ways the material could probably be different. In the bible there is an emphasis on war at times, and the morality can be quite ancient and severe. If alternatively, the bible was a pure doctrine of the best clear cut philosophical morals, with no parsing through metaphor and hard to understand riddle-like wisdom, would that make more of an impression on you. What if it even contained science, perhaps conveyed to prophets, telling us how to produce the best medicines or engineer electrics cars the best way. Or organize cities and government most efficiently, in a manner that was straight to the point. Instead, it obliges you to dig laboriously through ancient stories from the iron age like an archeologist. And from a long story of twists and turns arcane and hard to understand, you wrest from it what you believe is some relevant ingot of wisdom. But what if everything were crystal clear, with no twists and turns and controversy. With one simple testament relevant to all of modernity with principles clear as a mountain stream, with no need for clashing schools of interpretation and debate.

Click to expand...

I do not see any such texts as a reason to believe in the supernatural.

ideogenous_mover said:

"We came in search of the secret of immortality, to be like gods, and here we are mortals - more human than ever. If we have not obtained immortality, at least we have obtained reality. We began in a fairy tale and we came to life. But is this life reality? No, it is a thing. Zoom back camera!" - Alejandro Jodorowsky

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I don't get it.

Left Coast said:

Your scripture is simply incorrect. It is not clear to everyone that your God exists. Unless you believe that every atheist on earth is lying about their beliefs. Do you think I'm lying? I actually believe in your God but I'm just faking it that I don't?

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To start with, I don't think it's a matter of initially believing in "my God" or any particular God. So no, I am not going to say you are lying. The passage I posted states that creation testifies that there is a Creator, something or someone, responsible for the natural world and life we see. It also points out that anyone who doesn't acknowledges this obvious reality is making a willful choice to ignore the hallmarks of this Creator in the creation that surrounds us every day. In other words, we first acknowledge or reject the Creator. Rejection leads to a refusal to give thanks to the Creator for providing all we need. When a person does not acknowledge the creator and provider , we cannot arrive at a right understanding of how the universe works. Our thinking about everything is futile which leads to wrong conclusions and, eventually, to a darkened mind and heart. Everything one ends up believing then is based on wrong assumptions about the universe and one's place in it and people end up worshiping created things, instead of the Creator.

Left Coast said:

But even worse, that avoids the point I was making before. Believing your God exists is not sufficient for us to know what his expectations or teachings are. This is why Christians are hopelessly divided amongst each other as to what your God actually thinks about anything. If you were an all powerful being who loved everyone and wanted everyone to know the truth about what you think, would you stand for that? Wouldn't you come down here, right now, and clarify things?

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Actually Christians are very much in agreement on the essentials of the faith and according to the testimony of the scriptures, God did come down here, in the Person of Jesus Christ. He demonstrated real love and provided for reconciliation between sinful humans and a Holy God. Jesus also spoke the truth plainly and clarified exactly what God thinks about everything.

Really, how obscure or difficult is it to comprehend words, such as: "Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Do not defraud,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’ ”?
or
And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment. And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’?

Altfish said:

Those are just assertions and threats, I'm not impressed.

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I didn't see any threats in the verses I posted. I wasn't trying to impress you and I doubt God has any need to impress. The scriptures simply state reality for anyone who wants to know.

LuisDantas said:

The knowledge for such is basically mastered already. The challenges are in the field of implementing it, in attaining the necessary mutual acceptance, motivation and cooperation.

To put it in another way: Civical and political organization are inherently hindered and limited by whatever social and cultural shortcomings happen to exist in any given culture and time. They are the expression of the exact form and level of collective insanity of that culture.

Do you think that some alternate scriptural text could help there? How so?

Click to expand...

The knowledge for such runs from mankind like a wild stallion. It is perhaps caught sight of on the outskirts, but who can coax it into its harness. I think what you are seeing in this expression, seems to be reflection. That all of the people reflect their madness into their teleology. But we know that insanity is no way to run a village, a country, or an earth. Thereof, perhaps everyone should try looking inward. Only there can they find their horse, only there can they coax it into the harness with the apple of knowledge.

LuisDantas said:

I think that you will eventually conclude that the difficulty of interpretation is a necessary component of what we currently recognize as religion. It makes possible for people who actually hold values and goals that are at odds with each other to nevertheless profess to be brothers in faith, mostly avoiding the realization that they should be apart.

In its current, mainstream forms, a major role of religion is precisely that of enabling such prolonged postponement of conflict by proposing other, more distanct and abstract goals and values.

Religion arguably must renounce that role of social engineering of dubious value, but that has its own drawbacks. If nothing else, it is a dramatic change that probably should be made gradually and carefully in order to avoid serious, destructive trauma.

It is not just a matter of getting people used to the shallowness of traditional scripture. Actual functional alternatives must be provided and developed. And for that to be possible, interpretation and debate, far from being a hindrance, are much necessary building tools.

Click to expand...

I suppose in our current time frame, we must debate. Our age is not one of answers.

blü 2 said:

Even if I agreed, at least substantially, with the morality, it wouldn't be evidence of the reality of supernatural beings. Powerful beings, maybe, but God would remain an incoherent concept.

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Imagine this. Imagine if a being from the heavens were to come, very powerful in every way, and very knowledgeable. Imagine the being helped us. That it conveyed all the knowledge we asked, and every day healed the sick. If it then one day asked everyone to worship it, to build a temple for it, would you worship it? Think of how much it helped us.