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Question About Matthew 2:9

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Consider:

Matthew 2:1-11 (RSV)
1Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, saying, 2 “Where is he who has been born king of the Jews? For we have seen his star in the East, and have come to worship him.” 3 When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him; 4 and assembling all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born. 5 They told him, “In Bethlehem of Judea; for so it is written by the prophet:

6
‘And you, O Bethlehem, in the land of Judah,
are by no means least among the rulers of Judah;
for from you shall come a ruler
who will govern my people Israel.’”

7 Then Herod summoned the wise men secretly and ascertained from them what time the star appeared; 8 and he sent them to Bethlehem, saying, “Go and search diligently for the child, and when you have found him bring me word, that I too may come and worship him.” 9 When they had heard the king they went their way; and lo, the star which they had seen in the East went before them, till it came to rest over the place where the child was. 10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy; 11 and going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh.

Question: In as much as Herod's temple in Jerusalem is only about 5 miles from Bethlehem

a) Exactly how could a star, which would be at least 4.22 light-years* from Earth be seen to move five miles

b) and then stop?




* the closest star to earth, Proxima Centauri.

.


It was either a miracle or a UFO.

Are there any indications in scripture elsewhere (anyone?) that explains the mechanics of the star? Is this simply the author of Matthew's naive description of a miracle?

Maybe we could say that the wise men followed the star but followed it along caravan routes until they got to Jerusalem...then they were able to follow the road south from there to their final destination. A supernova that presumably or miraculously happened to be in just the right place.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Tell me where the Bible says to drive a car or get vaccinated.

There are many things that do not involve our worship that are left to our own judgment. The key element here is "worship".
The two main celebrations held in Christendom are both firmly rooted in pagan worship. We have strong Biblical admonition NOT to try to fuse true worship with false worship.

2 Corinthians 6:14-18.....ESV
"Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you, and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty.

Does this leave room for grafting Christianity over paganism? What is the admonition? "Get out" "separate from them"....only then will God accept us as his "sons and daughters".

When Israel tried blending their worship with that of Baal, God punished them. Elijah's famous confrontation with the Baal prophets demonstrated this. God did not let it continue and put to death those who promoted it.

There is absolutely no reason why Christmas cannot be celebrated, if done in a Christian manner.

There is no "Christian" way to celebrate what is in every way, a pagan festival, simply rebranded. Jews did not celebrate birthdays back in ancient times because of its pagan association with astrology. (something God considered detestable) Birth dates were used to cast horoscopes. Can you find me any birthdates or birthday celebrations in the Bible where the person was not pagan, and it did not involve the loss of someone's life?

If Jesus did not celebrate his own birthday for that reason, then why would he approve of such a celebration today? All the customs of Christmas are borrowed from the saturnalia....the gift giving....the gluttonous feasting....and alcohol fuelled merry-making....they changed nothing but the name and grafted in other elements associated with Northern Hemisphere pagan Winter traditions.

Regardless of what you call it, it was never a "Christian" celebration until an apostate church system embraced it and changed the name. Northern Hemisphere winter customs are ridiculous in a Southern Hemisphere climate. Sleighbells and snow in the middle of an Aussie summer just don't mesh.

My kids knew exactly why the holiday was kept. They knew that Santa Claus was a representation of a man, a bishop, who excelled at gift giving to the poor. They knew that a candy cane was a shaped as a crook that bishops in those times carried.

This is pure justification surely? Christ was not born in December because it is the cold, rainy, sometimes snowy winter time in the Middle East. The shepherds were outdoors tending their flocks when Jesus was born, but in winter, they kept their flocks under cover. The date comes from the saturnalia too. Mithra was the god....very little changed.

Regardless of the customs, the whole world (mostly unchristian) celebrates Christmas as primarily a greed-fest with expensive gifts often given grudgingly for the wrong reason.....the debt is often burdensome. It's an excuse to overindulge in food and alcohol, just as the original was. It is very much a secular holiday in many nations....seen as just a commercial holiday....a very lucrative one. Does that make you cringe? I used to celebrate it.....grew up with it, but as soon as I realised what it really was, I was disgusted and avoided having anything to do with it. But it's amazing what people will justify in order to keep doing what they love.

We concentrated first on the birth of Christ, his ministry, death and resurrection. We concentrated on giving and helping those less fortunate.

All very noble pursuits, but can't you do that at any time of year? Should Christians need a date to give them a reason to honour Christ or to help the less fortunate? At Christmastime, those who have no family or who are poor or disadvantaged by mental or physical illness are forced to endure what is to them, often the loneliest and most miserable time of the year. Police will tell you that alcohol fuelled domestic violence is rampant at Christmastime. Poor kids look at how generous santa is to the rich kids and wonder why he was so mean to them? You gloss over what is experienced by the masses at that time of year.

We even sneaked gifts to the kids of a JW in our extended family.

Now I am a bit bemused by this. This implies that our kids are somehow disadvantaged by not receiving Christmas presents...?

When my own kids were at school, they were the envy of other kids because they never had to wait for birthdays or Christmas to get presents. If our children saw something that sparked their interest, if it was affordable and appropriate, they received it as a gift of love, without having to wait for a date to receive it.
When asked "what did you get that for?" by other children, they would be puzzled because we need no excuses to give our children presents....we give them gifts when we want to, all year round. Often when kids see a toy or gadget that is popular, they see Christmas or their birthday as forever away, and often by then the toy has lost its attraction.
We had one young boy tell us that if it wasn't for Christmas or birthdays, he wouldn't get anything. How sad is that?

We often have children's parties for no particular reason, and the host child is the one who gives gifts to all the other kids. There is no spoilt brat throwing tantrums because it's their special day. So please don't give me the deprived children nonsense.......OK?

If our kids get presents from well meaning relatives at Christmas, they know what it's all about.

Paul talks about the freedom of the Gospel, and folk keeping one day to honor God, or keeping every day. He wasn´t just talking about the sabbath, he was also talking festivals and holidays, provided their foundation is Christian.

One day to honour God? Where will I find that? Where will I find Paul advocating a Sabbath observance for Christians, many of whom were former pagans? Sabbath was for Jews only, as was circumcision, not included in the "necessary" or "essential" "requirements" for Christians. (Acts 15:28-29)

There were no festivals or holidays to be observed by Christians, unlike those precisely prescribed for Israel.......there was just ONE observance that Jesus said to hold each year....the observance of the memorial of his death. It replaced the Passover for Jewish Christians and was held annually on the same date. There is no question about this date because it is clearly stated in scripture.

Christendom adopted Easter to graft over this annual observance and completely corrupted it. All the customs of Easter (even its name) are pagan to its bootstraps. From the dawn service, to the hot cross buns, to the rabbits and eggs all tied into a fertility festival honouring a pagan goddess of Spring. Her name was pronounced "Easter".

Do some homework Shmogie....please! I know you mean well, but you are dead wrong about these things. You cannot Christianise paganism....you only paganise the Christianity... :(
 
Last edited:

sooda

Veteran Member
The magi were Babylonian astrologers who said that they has seen "his star" in the East and followed it to Jerusalem where it led them. Only after Herod had been alerted did the star move again and lead the magi to Bethlehem where it stopped directly above the house where Jesus was living with his parents. They were never at the stable.

No ordinary star this....and definitely not sent by God. The visit of the magi to King Herod set in motion the events that led to the murder of all the infants two years of age and under in Bethlehem.



Angel or demon? It was a light that they mistook for a star.



Not my understanding at all I'm afraid. The birth of Christ was revealed to Jewish shepherds who traveled to Bethlehem to see the newborn King......so why would God alert worshippers of foreign deities. whose practices were detestable to him, to such an important event? (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) By the time the magi arrived, Jesus was about 2 years old and living in a house. The reason we know this is because of the expensive gifts they brought....gold, frankincense and myrrh. If the magi had arrived at the stable, then Mary and Joseph would not have presented just two small turtledoves as their offering at the temple.....the offering of the poor.

I believe that the magi were dupes used by the devil in an attempt to do away with Jesus before he even had a chance to grow up. Herod would not allow any successors to his throne except this own sons. The fact that God sent the astrologers home via another route shows that they had no evil intent. They had come to honor a new king, (as was their custom) not to worship Jesus as a god.

East is the wrong direction. Look at map.

Where does it say Jesus was living in a house then the Magi arrived?
 

sooda

Veteran Member
There are many things that do not involve our worship that are left to our own judgment. The key element here is "worship".
The two main celebrations held in Christendom are both firmly rooted in pagan worship. We have strong Biblical admonition NOT to try to fuse true worship with false worship.

2 Corinthians 6:14-18.....ESV
"Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you, and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty.

Does this leave room for grafting Christianity over paganism? What is the admonition? "Get out" "separate from them"....only then will God accept us as his "sons and daughters".

When Israel tried blending their worship with that of Baal, God punished them. Elijah's famous confrontation with the Baal prophets demonstrated this. God did not let it continue and put to death those who promoted it.



There is no "Christian" way to celebrate what is in every way, a pagan festival, simply rebranded. Jews did not celebrate birthdays back in ancient times because of its pagan association with astrology. (something God considered detestable) Birth dates were used to cast horoscopes. Can you find me any birthdates or birthday celebrations in the Bible where the person was not pagan, and it did not involve the loss of someone's life?

If Jesus did not celebrate his own birthday for that reason, then why would he approve of such a celebration today? All the customs of Christmas are borrowed from the saturnalia....the gift giving....the gluttonous feasting....and alcohol fuelled merry-making....they changed nothing but the name and grafted in other elements associated with Northern Hemisphere pagan Winter traditions.

Regardless of what you call it, it was never a "Christian" celebration until an apostate church system embraced it and changed the name. Northern Hemisphere winter customs are ridiculous in a Southern Hemisphere climate. Sleighbells and snow in the middle of an Aussie summer just don't mesh.



This is pure justification surely? Christ was not born in December because it is the cold, rainy, sometimes snowy winter time in the Middle East. The shepherds were outdoors tending their flocks when Jesus was born, but in winter, they kept their flocks under cover. The date comes from the saturnalia too. Mithra was the god....very little changed.

Regardless of the customs, the whole world (mostly unchristian) celebrates Christmas as primarily a greed-fest with expensive gifts often given grudgingly for the wrong reason.....the debt is often burdensome. It's an excuse to overindulge in food and alcohol, just as the original was. It is very much a secular holiday in many nations....seen as just a commercial holiday....a very lucrative one. Does that make you cringe? I used to celebrate it.....grew up with it, but as soon as I realised what it really was, I was disgusted and avoided having anything to do with it. But it's amazing what people will justify in order to keep doing what they love.



All very noble pursuits, but can't you do that at any time of year? Should Christians need a date to give them a reason to honour Christ or to help the less fortunate? At Christmastime, those who have no family or who are poor or disadvantaged by mental or physical illness are forced to endure what is to them, often the loneliest and most miserable time of the year. Police will tell you that alcohol fuelled domestic violence is rampant at Christmastime. Poor kids look at how generous santa is to the rich kids and wonder why he was so mean to them? You gloss over what is experienced by the masses at that time of year.



Now I am a bit bemused by this. This implies that our kids are somehow disadvantaged by not receiving Christmas presents...?

When my own kids were at school, they were the envy of other kids because they never had to wait for birthdays or Christmas to get presents. If our children saw something that sparked their interest, if it was affordable and appropriate, they received it as a gift of love, without having to wait for a date to receive it.
When asked "what did you get that for?" by other children, they would be puzzled because we need no excuses to give our children presents....we give them gifts when we want to, all year round. Often when kids see a toy or gadget that is popular, they see Christmas or their birthday as forever away, and often by then the toy has lost its attraction.
We had one young boy tell us that if it wasn't for Christmas or birthdays, he wouldn't get anything. How sad is that?

We often have children's parties for no particular reason, and the host child is the one who gives gifts to all the other kids. There is no spoilt brat throwing tantrums because it's their special day. So please don't give me the deprived children nonsense.......OK?

If our kids get presents from well meaning relatives at Christmas, they know what it's all about.



One day to honour God? Where will I find that? Where will I find Paul advocating a Sabbath observance for Christians, many of whom were former pagans? Sabbath was for Jews only, as was circumcision, not included in the "necessary" or "essential" "requirements" for Christians. (Acts 15:28-29)

There were no festivals or holidays to be observed by Christians, unlike those precisely prescribed for Israel.......there was just ONE observance that Jesus said to hold each year....the observance of the memorial of his death. It replaced the Passover for Jewish Christians and was held annually on the same date. There is no question about this date because it is clearly stated in scripture.

Christendom adopted Easter to graft over this annual observance and completely corrupted it. All the customs of Easter (even its name) are pagan to its bootstraps. From the dawn service, to the hot cross buns, to the rabbits and eggs all tied into a fertility festival honouring a pagan goddess of Spring. Her name was pronounced "Easter".

Do some homework Shmogie....please! I know you mean well, but you are dead wrong about these things. You cannot Churistianise paganism....you only paganise the Christianity... :(

Lambing in Palestine is January and February when the weather is cool and rainy and pasture is more plentiful.. That's when the lambs are born and when the shephards would have been in the fields.

Do some homework please.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
East is the wrong direction. Look at map.

The magi saw "his star" when they were in the East. They followed the star as it led them West towards Jerusalem. Babylon is East of Jerusalem. Look at a map.

Where does it say Jesus was living in a house then the Magi arrived?

"When they heard the king, they went; and look, the star they had seen in the east went ahead of them until it stood over the place where the child was. When they saw the star, they were filled with joy. They entered the house and saw the child with Mary his mother. Falling to their knees, they honored him. Then they opened their treasure chests and presented him with gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh." (Matthew 2:9-11 CEB)
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Lambing in Palestine is January and February when the weather is cool and rainy and pasture is more plentiful.. That's when the lambs are born and when the shephards would have been in the fields.

Do some homework please.

Who said anything about lambing? The shepherds tended their flocks out of doors throughout the warmer part of the year. Only in winter did they keep them under cover. Jesus was not born in winter. It has been calculated to be around October.

Someone needs to read scripture instead of adding their own spin to everything. :facepalm: I think you demonstrate who needs to do their homework.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There are TWO Bethlehems. One is about 90 miles north of Jerusalem.. which is a long haul on a donkey when you're in you third trimester.
How old is the more distant Bethlehem? I can find archaeological references to the Templars but not to biblical times.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
Question: In as much as Herod's temple in Jerusalem is only about 5 miles from Bethlehem

34517_f1b632b62cac67a11662dfab6e0506fa.png


a) Exactly how could a star, which would be at least 4.22 light-years* from Earth be seen to move five miles

b) and then stop?

People have tried to explain it at wikipedia.
Star of Bethlehem - Wikipedia

It is a star specially made by God for his Son Jesus Christ.
It only appeared once and for that occasion only.
It is also used to signal the fulfillment of the prophecies mentioned
in the Old Testament

Numbers 24:17 New International Version (NIV)
“I see him, but not now;
I behold him, but not near.
A star will come out of Jacob;
a scepter will rise out of Israel.
He will crush the foreheads of Moab,
the skulls of all the people of Sheth.

upload_2019-5-13_11-37-19.jpeg
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
God could also bend the light without changing the motion of either
What two "eithers" are you talking about?

,
Good question.
I wonder if this is the answer?

I'm not an astronomer so I'm listening to it right now. So far, pretty interesting.
Sorry, but as interesting as it may be I don't have an hour to invest in it.


Those magi were astrologers. Astrology was involved with the so-called *star* leding them to Jesus' enemy Herod.
Jesus was born in Bethlehem, but I find that does Not mean they moved and took up residence in Bethlehem.
In other words, the location of the *star* is Not mentioned as to where the ' house ' was located.
By the time the magi located Jesus he was Not a babe in a manger but a child in a house - Matthew 2:11
So, Jesus as a two-year old child did Not have to be in Bethlehem, just that Jesus was born in Bethlehem.
Nah. The Bible doesn't say or imply any such thing.

Matthew 2:8-10 (NIV)
8 He sent them to Bethlehem and said, “Go and search carefully for the child. As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him.”
9 After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen when it rose went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. 10 When they saw the star, they were overjoyed.
In any case, my interest isn't in when or where they found Jesus, but:

a) Exactly how could a star, which would be at least 4.22 light-years* from Earth be seen to move five miles?

b) and then stop?​



It was either a miracle or a UFO.
Ah, the old Magical Miracle ruse. Not buying it.


People have tried to explain it at wikipedia.
Star of Bethlehem - Wikipedia
It is a star specially made by God for his Son Jesus Christ.
It only appeared once and for that occasion only.
Fine. Then just tell me

a) Exactly how could a star, which would be at least 4.22 light-years* from Earth be seen to move five miles?

b) and then stop?​

.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
Fine. Then just tell me

a) Exactly how could a star, which would be at least 4.22 light-years* from Earth be seen to move five miles?

b) and then stop?

It is a star that nobody documented what it really was
So who measured that as 4.22 light years from Earth?

It is a star that only appeared during the birth of Christ
That is why we don't see that star around anymore.

It was a special star - just for that occasion only.
We don't see it but the Magi saw it.

upload_2019-5-13_12-33-46.jpeg


It was a lucky star
A sort of firework to herald the birth of the Lord Jesus Christ.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
It is a star that nobody documented what it really was
So who measured that as 4.22 light years from Earth?

It is a star that only appeared during the birth of Christ
That is why we don't see that star around anymore.

It was a special star - just for that occasion only.
We don't see it but the Magi saw it.

View attachment 29000

It was a lucky star
A sort of firework to herald the birth of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Again, why didn't God just tell them?
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
It is a star that nobody documented what it really was
So who measured that as 4.22 light years from Earth?
The reference was noted in the OP, where the asterisk in "4.22 light-years* . . . ." explains that this is the distance of the closest star to earth; Proxima Centauri. Meaning that if the "star" was not Proxima Centauri it would have to be even farther away, The point being that it is impossible for such a star, Proxima Centauri included, to be seen to move five miles from over one spot on Earth to over another. In short, the whole thing is ludicrous.

It is a star that only appeared during the birth of Christ
That is why we don't see that star around anymore.

It was a special star - just for that occasion only.
We don't see it but the Magi saw it.

It was a lucky star
A sort of firework to herald the birth of the Lord Jesus Christ.
And, of course, your evidence for all this can be found ___________________your source_______________________ .


.
 
Last edited:

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The reference was noted in the OP, where the asterisk in "4.22 light-years* . . . ." explains that this is the distance of the closest star to earth; Proxima Centauri. Meaning that if the "star" was not Proxima Centauri it would have to be even farther away, The point being that it is impossible for such a star, Proxima Centauri included, to seen to move five miles from over one spot on Earth to over another. In short, the whole thing is ludicrous.


And, of course, your evidence for all this can be found ___________________your source_______________________ .


.
Even a much much closer object such as any planet would have the exact same problem. Which forces one to ask "Why didn't God just tell them where to go?" . Extra unneeded detail is a sign of a falsehood.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
The reference was noted in the OP, where the asterisk in "4.22 light-years* . . . ." explains that this is the distance of the closest star to earth; Proxima Centauri. Meaning that if the "star" was not Proxima Centauri it would have to be even farther away, The point being that it is impossible for such a star, Proxima Centauri included, to seen to move five miles from over one spot on Earth to over another. In short, the whole thing is ludicrous.

Proxima Centauri - who said it was that star of Bethlehem?
That isn't the star of Bethlehem.
Otherwise it wouldn't be called Proxima Centauri.

Was the star fixed in our night sky?
No it is not
It was mentioned in the Bible.
What for?
Like fireworks.


To call on the shepherds tending their flocks in the field.
To call the Magi from the far away country

Where is the star of Bethlehem now?
Gone. Finished. Done - it served its purpose.

And, of course, your evidence for all this can be found ___________________your source_______________________ .

Was the star of Bethlehem meant to be a fixed heavenly body?
No.

upload_2019-5-13_16-50-57.jpeg


It appeared and disappeared.
No one was able to study it.
It was a special star and you would be lucky if you saw it


Starlight, star bright.....
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Proxima Centauri - who said it was that star of Bethlehem?
That isn't the star of Bethlehem.
Otherwise it wouldn't be called Proxima Centauri.

Was the star fixed in our night sky?
No it is not
It was mentioned in the Bible.
What for?
Like fireworks.


To call on the shepherds tending their flocks in the field.
To call the Magi from the far away country

Where is the star of Bethlehem now?
Gone. Finished. Done - it served its purpose.



Was the star of Bethlehem meant to be a fixed heavenly body?
No.

View attachment 29005

It appeared and disappeared.
No one was able to study it.
It was a special star and you would be lucky if you saw it


Starlight, star bright.....
So your answer is pointless magic.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
People, people. As I've pointed out so many times before, the scholars who assembled the English translations of the Bible used those words they felt best expressed the intended meaning of their source material. If they thought the source material intended its readers, whomever they may have been, to believe the "star" was a comet,...
.

I don’t think you understood the point. Many things can be called a star, not just those that modern science calls “stars”. Star is correct word in the Bible, but the meaning of the word star can be for example a comet, or “shooting star”. All bright lights in the sky could have been called stars, even if they were not stars in modern scientific definition.
 
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