The Voice of Reason
Doctor of Thinkology
We agree, Scott. My only point was to show the original intent of the thread, but I do agree that it has now taken a different tack - and one that is worth continuing.SOGFPP said:
TVOR
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Are Catholics Christians?
- Thread starter The Voice of Reason
- Start date
TVOR
Linus
Well-Known Member
Ok good. We are on the right trackSOGFPP said:
I think this is where our views on things differ. I view hunger as a need, not a want. Wanting anything is selfish. Hunger itself is selfish (not that it's a bad thing in itself, but anyway). Our spirit wants to do what is required of us by God, but our flesh, our physical body wants to plese itself (Matthew 26:41 - ...the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak). There is a distinct difference in and constant battle between the spirit and the flesh. I think Romans 7: 22-25 describes it perfectlySOGFPP said:
It reads:
22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin
Another way we differ. I think our differences in opinion on this particular issue are too numerous to come to a mutual conclusion. I believe that the creation story is literal, and that Adam sinned, but his sin has no effect on my spiritual being because I don't see how a person can be born with a sin already inside them.SOGFPP said:3. Was original sin caused by Adam and Eve?
Well.... that's a tough one. I'll try to give you the entire answer:
Yes........... and no.
The Catechism teaches:
390 The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man.
So.... now we are getting into my educated guess..... I think that Genesis and the account that Catholics describe as the story of original sin... "the fall".... happened.... but I can't say for certain that Genesis is a literal tale meant to teach us about the persons Adam and Eve. To be honest.... I (of course) believe it's the infallible word of God, but I don't believe that this story should be read literally. God (in my humble opinion) put it there to show our origin and to explain the unexplainable: why we have a sinful nature and why there is evil in the world.
But if you want my answer (even though I know you wil not agree with it, but that's ok
), I will give it to you. But as for this discussion if you want to continue it, we can. But for now I will leave it at a difference in opinion. My answer:
Our spirit, our spiritual side, our mind, is created to be perfect, sinless, without blemish (in the image of God). Our bodies (the flesh) are imperfect and want to please themselves (temptation). Sin occurs when we allow ourselves to to give in to those temptations and and let our bodily wants overcome our spiritual ones (because God created us with the choice to serve Him or not). That is why I do not believe sin is a condition, but an action.
Well there you have it. My answer. If you have any further question I would love to answer them. But as for this discussion, I have said all i need to say. If you want to discuss it further, let me know.
Scott1
Well-Known Member
That's up to you, my friend.... I agree that neither will "convince" the other, but I am still waiting for at least a reasonable answer.Linus said:
Your reply only confused me more:
So you believe God creates everything, as I believe.... ok, got that.
So.... God creates our spirit in his image....... but our bodies??? Not in His image?
That makes no sense.
This verse states the obvious.... but does not give evidence to why the flesh is weak.
Romans 7 does not describe how God created our bodies imperfectly.
Linus.... all you have to do is tell me why God made our bodies imperfect.
Linus said:
We did not choose to have imperfect bodies.... why should we suffer the torment of pride and selfishness?
Where is the conscious decision here with your views on the body?
Don't look down..... there is paint everywhere!
Scott
Avid Catholics today according to their practices, beliefs, and works are no different now, then the those who Jesus rebuked for their religious and traditional practices handed down by men and there forefathers. As a matter of fact the way of worship and practices in old Testament days is actually the way the Catholics practice today.They direct much of their attention ,devotion and worship to the Priest,Virgin Mary and all the Saints etc. Catholics even went as far as to create and compile their own Catholic version of the bible from books and stories that never were part of the original canonization where selected jewish scholars arranged and compiled the Holy Bible upon the leading of the Holy Spirit.
Although they don't sacrifice animals up for atonement of sins , they still need to go through the priests, but everything about Jesus Christ is contrary to the old way.
That is the whole premise behind the crucifixtion, Hebrews 8 describes the New Covenant being established, abolishing the old or first covenant God made with His people bringing in a new one, BUT some who just don't want to give up the old
Although they don't sacrifice animals up for atonement of sins , they still need to go through the priests, but everything about Jesus Christ is contrary to the old way.
That is the whole premise behind the crucifixtion, Hebrews 8 describes the New Covenant being established, abolishing the old or first covenant God made with His people bringing in a new one, BUT some who just don't want to give up the old
Linus
Well-Known Member
Why not? Do you think God has some human-like body that He is always dwelling in? Certainly when He appeared to Moses and others he probably had some physical form with which he masked himself, but on the whole I don't think I can picture God as looking like anything. He is a spiritual being, and I can't picture Him as having arms and legs and a head and a liver, etc.SOGFPP said:So.... God creates our spirit in his image....... but our bodies??? Not in His image?
That makes no sense.
I never said it did. I meant that it describes the relationship between our physical and spiritual perfectly. It demonstrates, perfectly the constant struggle between our flesh and our spirit. That's all.SOGFPP said:
God made our bodies imperfect only in the sense that we are able to sin. Why? So we can have a choice. If we could not sin (if we could not choose to follow God) then we would be perfect. We would be sinless. This, as we have already established, is far from the case. We would be like robots or something that just blindly follow and carry out oue programming. Why would God want praise from robots or puppets that he controls without consent? I think God created us to be imperfect so that we would overcome the imperfections and submit to Him because He knows what is best.SOGFPP said:
Ask God. He created us. Why should we suffer through the sin and evil and hate that is in the world? We have this constant struggle between the flesh and the spirit, and the whole point of life is to overcome these fleshly desires (selfishness) and surender to the spiritual (Godly things).SOGFPP said:
Could you explain this a little more please?SOGFPP said:
chuck010342
Active Member
I love threads that I can answer in a single word: NO
Scott1
Well-Known Member
Alright..... I think we're about done with this topic.... for now....
Let's sum things up.
You (as a member of the Church of Christ, a Protestant denomination of Christianity) believe that in regards to sin:
Some Christian faiths believe that God intentionally created humanity with a sinful body, and that humanity is destined to constantly struggle between the desires of the flesh (selfishness/sin) and the spritual self (Godly things).
Catholics, on the other hand, believe that a loving, merciful God would never create something intentionally imperfect and inclined to sin and that the origin of our sinful nature was in the sin of our first human parents Adam and Eve. This original sin resulted in the fall of humanity and resulted in our inclination towards sin.
Next? I suggest we chat about our salvation. Suggestions? How about I start?
How are we saved?
Why do we need to be saved?
Scott
Let's sum things up.
You (as a member of the Church of Christ, a Protestant denomination of Christianity) believe that in regards to sin:
- God created our spirit/soul to be perfect
- God created our bodies to be imperfect (i.e. sinful)
- God intentionally created us this way so that we could strive to overcome the imperfections and submit to Him/His will.
- The sins of Adam and/or Eve have nothing to do with our sinful nature.
Some Christian faiths believe that God intentionally created humanity with a sinful body, and that humanity is destined to constantly struggle between the desires of the flesh (selfishness/sin) and the spritual self (Godly things).
Catholics, on the other hand, believe that a loving, merciful God would never create something intentionally imperfect and inclined to sin and that the origin of our sinful nature was in the sin of our first human parents Adam and Eve. This original sin resulted in the fall of humanity and resulted in our inclination towards sin.
Next? I suggest we chat about our salvation. Suggestions? How about I start?
How are we saved?
Why do we need to be saved?
Scott
Definatley with the big "C"'s on this one.
We are saved by the grace of God, no amount of good work can save.
We need to be saved because of our sins, God is a just God and the wages of sin is death.
Care to give reasons?
Linus
Well-Known Member
SOGFPP said:
We are saved ultimately through the grace of God. But I believe that that baptism (along with living faithfully) is the only way to attain that.SOGFPP said:
Because we sin. We cannot be with God if we have sin in our lives.SOGFPP said:
chuck010342
Active Member
The RCC has failed the fruit test
SOGFPP You seem intelligent, If you are Catholic ,then you know where the Catholic scriptures oringinated, and that they were not part of the original canonization.But these particulars won't help you on judgement day.The bible, prayer, practices or denominations never did and never will justify anyone before a Holy God, my quote is not doctrine just from knowledge of where the holy bible came from.SOGFPP said:Oh well...... for every one educated person like Linus....... there's the opposite!
So, roli....
Jewish scholars arranged and compiled the New Testament?
Peace be with you,
Scott
What you choose to follow and adhere to is your choice.
Do you recall Matin Luther 15 century and the role he played as a reformist in the church, all he did was interpreted the scriptures literally in Romans, that did not bring him popularity nor Jesus when He proclaimed He was the word, The just shall live by faith . Faith, not facts.
A christian is one who follows ,obeys, and imitates Jesus Christ, explicitly, forsaken their own life (wants ,desires pleasures,lusts, thoughts etc.) every day and is made right with God, only by God's grace thru faith this is not by your own merit or good deeds, logic or out manovering someone intellectually, not even your public proclaimation of your faith or church.
The righteousness God REQUIRES is in Jesus Christ and Him alone, not thru confirmation, baptism ,adherences to rules and traditions, high officials in the church, saints of the past and especially abstaining from bad things, and indulgences of the flesh,including adultry, fornication, coveteousness, anger, hatered, theft, lies etc. etc.
chuck010342
Active Member
Jewscout does it, TVOR does it why can't I? Besides my post does have a point. The RCC faild my fruit test if you want to know more about it I suggest you read my other posts but if you want me to shut up I'll do it.SOGFPP said:
The Voice of Reason
Doctor of Thinkology
You shouldn't pattern yourself after me - I get warnings quite often for some of my posts. You can still idolize me, and look upon me as a role model, but it probably won't be healthy for your frubal totals.chuck010342 said:
TVOR
What do the Catholics think of the Nimrod obelisk in St Peter's square? And also the Dagon fish hat the Pope wears?
http://truth.5u.com/paganism.htm
http://truth.5u.com/paganism.htm