• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Top Ten Reasons Why Jesus is Not God

Trailblazer

Veteran Member

I suggest that anyone who wants to know anything about God watch this video. I learned something about what Muslims believe from watching it. What Muslims believe about God is exactly what Baha’is believe about God. I really liked the way they described God on the video, while they were explaining why Jesus cannot be God. Anyone who likes logic owes it to themselves to watch this video.

Any atheists on this forum who want to know the Truth about Jesus and God should watch this video. It is kind of long but it is well worth the time spent.

One difference between Islam and the Baha’i Faith is that Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah was the Return of Christ and the Messiah promised in the Old Testament as well as the Promised One of all the other religions, whereas Muslims believe that Jesus Christ is yet to return to earth. The other difference between Muslims and Baha’is is that Muslims believe that Muhammad was the last and final Prophet that will ever come to earth whereas Baha’is do not believe there will ever be a last or final Prophet.

Baha’is believe that Muhammad was the last Prophet in the Prophetic Cycle of religion, why He was called the Seal of the Prophets. We believe that the Bab and Baha’u’llah ushered in a new religious cycle called the Cycle of Fulfillment, because they “fulfilled” all the prophecies in the Bible and the Quran and all the other religions that preceded them.

Like Baha’is, Muslims believe that Messengers of God have come to earth since the dawn of human history. There are no other religions that teach this. The difference is again is that Muslims believe that Muhammad was the last and final Prophet, just as Jews believe that there will be no more Prophets after the Prophets in their scriptures.

What all the older religions have in common, including Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism, is that they are all waiting for “a Messiah” that was prophesied in their scriptures. Baha’is believe that Messiah has come and gone and his name was Baha’u’llah: Prophecy Fulfilled Webpage
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
48 minutes of the Muslim perspective?

To learn about God, no less?

Sorry, but if I felt the urge to learn about God, that is exactly where I would not go to.
 

lukethethird

unknown member
Top Ten Reasons Why Jesus is Not God
number 1 reason Jesus is not God; Eric Clapton is God.
 
Last edited:

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
God can be born if He wants to be.

Yes God does not have a beginning. In the case of Jesus he did not begin at birth and said so. "Before Abraham was I AM" and the people at hand understood exactly what Jesus meant and tired to stone him to death.

At Jesus birth God in Christ tool on an additional nature, a human nature, along with the divine nature

For this reason a title of Jesus if "the mighty God" El Gibor
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member

I suggest that anyone who wants to know anything about God watch this video. I learned something about what Muslims believe from watching it. What Muslims believe about God is exactly what Baha’is believe about God. I really liked the way they described God on the video, while they were explaining why Jesus cannot be God. Anyone who likes logic owes it to themselves to watch this video.

Any atheists on this forum who want to know the Truth about Jesus and God should watch this video. It is kind of long but it is well worth the time spent.

One difference between Islam and the Baha’i Faith is that Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah was the Return of Christ and the Messiah promised in the Old Testament as well as the Promised One of all the other religions, whereas Muslims believe that Jesus Christ is yet to return to earth. The other difference between Muslims and Baha’is is that Muslims believe that Muhammad was the last and final Prophet that will ever come to earth whereas Baha’is do not believe there will ever be a last or final Prophet.

Baha’is believe that Muhammad was the last Prophet in the Prophetic Cycle of religion, why He was called the Seal of the Prophets. We believe that the Bab and Baha’u’llah ushered in a new religious cycle called the Cycle of Fulfillment, because they “fulfilled” all the prophecies in the Bible and the Quran and all the other religions that preceded them.

Like Baha’is, Muslims believe that Messengers of God have come to earth since the dawn of human history. There are no other religions that teach this. The difference is again is that Muslims believe that Muhammad was the last and final Prophet, just as Jews believe that there will be no more Prophets after the Prophets in their scriptures.

What all the older religions have in common, including Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism, is that they are all waiting for “a Messiah” that was prophesied in their scriptures. Baha’is believe that Messiah has come and gone and his name was Baha’u’llah: Prophecy Fulfilled Webpage

48 minutes of the Muslim perspective?

To learn about God, no less?

Sorry, but if I felt the urge to learn about God, that is exactly where I would not go to.

number 9. There are explicit verses that say Jesus is God. See Romans where is mentioned Israel, "....from whom is the Christ who is God blessed forever, Amen." and also says 'the church is bought by the blood of God' - what could be clearer?
 

Firemorphic

Activist Membrane
Particularly the one described by Islaam, who is flawed to the point of ludicrousness, yes.

Ok, I'll budge. What is the "Who" in the Islamic concept of God?

We're 100% anti-anthropomorphic, rather more towards your end of the spectrum than perhaps herculean superhero sky deities. Our God-concept is almost indiscernible from Hinduism's high-philosophy regarding Brahman (and even Dharmadhatu) when you take prophets out of the equation.
But I've never personally seen any single post from you demonstrating a tangible, learned understanding of Islam. However, I'll budge, perhaps you'll surprise me.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member

I suggest that anyone who wants to know anything about God watch this video. I learned something about what Muslims believe from watching it. What Muslims believe about God is exactly what Baha’is believe about God. I really liked the way they described God on the video, while they were explaining why Jesus cannot be God. Anyone who likes logic owes it to themselves to watch this video.

Any atheists on this forum who want to know the Truth about Jesus and God should watch this video. It is kind of long but it is well worth the time spent.

One difference between Islam and the Baha’i Faith is that Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah was the Return of Christ and the Messiah promised in the Old Testament as well as the Promised One of all the other religions, whereas Muslims believe that Jesus Christ is yet to return to earth. The other difference between Muslims and Baha’is is that Muslims believe that Muhammad was the last and final Prophet that will ever come to earth whereas Baha’is do not believe there will ever be a last or final Prophet.

Baha’is believe that Muhammad was the last Prophet in the Prophetic Cycle of religion, why He was called the Seal of the Prophets. We believe that the Bab and Baha’u’llah ushered in a new religious cycle called the Cycle of Fulfillment, because they “fulfilled” all the prophecies in the Bible and the Quran and all the other religions that preceded them.

Like Baha’is, Muslims believe that Messengers of God have come to earth since the dawn of human history. There are no other religions that teach this. The difference is again is that Muslims believe that Muhammad was the last and final Prophet, just as Jews believe that there will be no more Prophets after the Prophets in their scriptures.

What all the older religions have in common, including Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism, is that they are all waiting for “a Messiah” that was prophesied in their scriptures. Baha’is believe that Messiah has come and gone and his name was Baha’u’llah: Prophecy Fulfilled Webpage

Thank you for the OP and the link it is a useful insight into Islamic theology. Perhaps the OP title would be more accurate to offer as a Muslim apologist view on the nature of Jesus.

The Video starts off stating that Islam is the only other religion apart from Christianity that insists on a belief in Jesus. That is clearly not true as it is a Baha'i persective too.

Its important to realise Baha'is believe in the Divinity of Christ but has a somewhat intermediatary position in that we do not believe Jesus was literally God incarnate as the Christians do but don't deny His Divinity completely as the Muslims too.

Some of the arguments presented by the Muslims in this video are useful.

1/ God has no beginning nor end, therefore can not be considered to have been born as Jesus was.

2/ There are no explicit verses in the Bible that say Jesus was God.

3/ The Divinity of Christ was not taught by Jesus, His Disciples or any of the early Christians.

4/ Jesus ate, slept and prayed, whereas God is self-sufficient.

5/ Jesus claimed that God's knowledge was greater than His own.

6/ Jesus explicity states that He is not God.

7/ The title Son of God is not unique to Christ.

8/ God can not change.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member

I suggest that anyone who wants to know anything about God watch this video. I learned something about what Muslims believe from watching it. What Muslims believe about God is exactly what Baha’is believe about God. I really liked the way they described God on the video, while they were explaining why Jesus cannot be God. Anyone who likes logic owes it to themselves to watch this video.

Any atheists on this forum who want to know the Truth about Jesus and God should watch this video. It is kind of long but it is well worth the time spent.

One difference between Islam and the Baha’i Faith is that Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah was the Return of Christ and the Messiah promised in the Old Testament as well as the Promised One of all the other religions, whereas Muslims believe that Jesus Christ is yet to return to earth. The other difference between Muslims and Baha’is is that Muslims believe that Muhammad was the last and final Prophet that will ever come to earth whereas Baha’is do not believe there will ever be a last or final Prophet.

Baha’is believe that Muhammad was the last Prophet in the Prophetic Cycle of religion, why He was called the Seal of the Prophets. We believe that the Bab and Baha’u’llah ushered in a new religious cycle called the Cycle of Fulfillment, because they “fulfilled” all the prophecies in the Bible and the Quran and all the other religions that preceded them.

Like Baha’is, Muslims believe that Messengers of God have come to earth since the dawn of human history. There are no other religions that teach this. The difference is again is that Muslims believe that Muhammad was the last and final Prophet, just as Jews believe that there will be no more Prophets after the Prophets in their scriptures.

What all the older religions have in common, including Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism, is that they are all waiting for “a Messiah” that was prophesied in their scriptures. Baha’is believe that Messiah has come and gone and his name was Baha’u’llah: Prophecy Fulfilled Webpage

The Jesus in the New Testament said he will suffer for sins, die and be raised from the dead. The Jesus in the Koran is not at all like that.

The description of Jesus in the Koran has some things in common with and some things that contradict the descriptions of Jesus in the New Testament and so this is 'another Jesus' and 'another Gospel' One might believe in 'another Jesus' but its not the real one.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
God can be born if He wants to be.
No, God cannot be what God has never been because then God would be defying His attribute of unchanging that God clearly said He was in the OT. That was covered in the video.

Besides that, since God has no beginning and no end, God cannot be born. God is the Almighty Creator who has fashioned the universe; God is the un-created cause of all existence, everything else is the Creation.
Yes God does not have a beginning. In the case of Jesus he did not begin at birth and said so. "Before Abraham was I AM" and the people at hand understood exactly what Jesus meant and tired to stone him to death.
That was covered in the video. You really should watch the whole video.

It is true that the soul of Jesus was pre-existent in the spiritual world, but Jesus came into existence at some point; God said "be" and Jesus was. That is why Jesus is the Word of God.

You should read this article: The Pre-Existence of Jesus Christ
At Jesus birth God in Christ tool on an additional nature, a human nature, along with the divine nature.
God cannot take on a human nature because then God would no longer be God. God cannot be BOTH a human and God.
For this reason a title of Jesus if "the mighty God" El Gibor
People can CALL Jesus the mighty God if they want to, but will never turn Jesus into God.
Jesus never claimed to be God, not even once in the Bible. Why wouldn't Jesus say He was God if He was God? The at video also covers that.

Jesus said He was from God and that God sent Him, differentiating Himself from God:

John 17:3 And eternal life means to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, whom you sent.

John 7:28 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not. 29 But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
No, God cannot be what God has never been because then God would be defying His attribute of unchanging that God clearly said He was in the OT. That was covered in the video.

Besides that, since God has no beginning and no end, God cannot be born. God is the Almighty Creator who has fashioned the universe; God is the un-created cause of all existence, everything else is the Creation.

That was covered in the video. You really should watch the whole video.

It is true that the soul of Jesus was pre-existent in the spiritual world, but Jesus came into existence at some point; God said "be" and Jesus was. That is why Jesus is the Word of God.

You should read this article: The Pre-Existence of Jesus Christ

God cannot take on a human nature because then God would no longer be God. God cannot be BOTH a human and God.

People can CALL Jesus the mighty God if they want to, but will never turn Jesus into God.
Jesus never claimed to be God, not even once in the Bible. Why wouldn't Jesus say He was God if He was God? The at video also covers that.

Jesus said He was from God and that God sent Him, differentiating Himself from God:

John 17:3 And eternal life means to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, whom you sent.

John 7:28 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not. 29 But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.

God may be unchanging but can still be dynamic.

In the end Jesus being God and the Father being God is part of the reason the Trinity is true.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
number 9. There are explicit verses that say Jesus is God. See Romans where is mentioned Israel, "....from whom is the Christ who is God blessed forever, Amen." and also says 'the church is bought by the blood of God' - what could be clearer?
It does not matter what Paul said about Jesus. The POINT is that Jesus never claimed to be God, not once.
There is no reason why Jesus would not have made it clear that He was God, if He was God, because God is not the author of confusion.
Clearly, Paul and the Church had an agenda, and they misrepresented who Jesus was.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
It does not matter what Paul said about Jesus. The POINT is that Jesus never claimed to be God, not once.
There is no reason why Jesus would not have made it clear that He was God, if He was God, because God is not the author of confusion.
Clearly, Paul and the Church had an agenda, and they misrepresented who Jesus was.

Paul? actually Peter referred to Paul's writings as scripture.... so ... you mean Paul and all the apostles?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Thank you for the OP and the link it is a useful insight into Islamic theology. Perhaps the OP title would be more accurate to offer as a Muslim apologist view on the nature of Jesus.
No, everything the Muslim said is exactly what Baha'u'llah said about God.
The Video starts off stating that Islam is the only other religion apart from Christianity that insists on a belief in Jesus. That is clearly not true as it is a Baha'i perspective too.
Yes, I noticed that. That is the only thing he said that was wrong.
Its important to realise Baha'is believe in the Divinity of Christ but has a somewhat intermediatary position in that we do not believe Jesus was literally God incarnate as the Christians do but don't deny His Divinity completely as the Muslims too.
No, Baha'is do not believe in the Divinity of Christ. We believe that Jesus was a Messenger of God and a Manifestation of God, but not God incarnate. It is said in the Writings that Manifestations of God are made from the substance of God, but that is not the same thing as saying that they were God.
Some of the arguments presented by the Muslims in this video are useful.
3/ The Divinity of Christ was not taught by Jesus, His Disciples or any of the early Christians.
That is because Jesus was not God. Jesus never claimed to be God. Jesus was a Mediator between God and man, a Manifestation of God and a Messenger of God. So the video was not wrong when it said that Jesus was one of the greatest Messengers of God who ever existed..
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Ok, I'll budge. What is the "Who" in the Islamic concept of God?

We're 100% anti-anthropomorphic, rather more towards your end of the spectrum than perhaps herculean superhero sky deities.

My end of the spectrum?

Out of curiosity, how would you describe that place where you believe me to be? For that matter, which spectrum would that be?

Islaam's theistic conceptions could not be much further from mine if I asked them to be custom-made for that purpose.

Well, not without being animistic, I suppose.

Our God-concept is almost indiscernible from Hinduism's high-philosophy regarding Brahman (and even Dharmadhatu) when you take prophets out of the equation.

I don't think so. In any case, that is a very significant difference by any measure.

But I've never personally seen any single post from you demonstrating a tangible, learned understanding of Islam. However, I'll budge, perhaps you'll surprise me.

Probably not. But you sure surprised me here.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
God may be unchanging but can still be dynamic.
Dynamic means characterized by constant change, activity, or progress, so God cannot be unchanging and dynamic because those are contradictory.
In the end Jesus being God and the Father being God is part of the reason the Trinity is true.
With all due respect, I believe that the Trinity is a man-made doctrine of the Church.
The Trinity is mentioned nowhere in the Bible. The video pointed that out.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I like the God described by Islam.
Why do you think this God is flawed?
For one thing, he does not have a good grasp of either human nature nor of theology. Nor of religion, for that matter...

Perhaps ironically, it has particularly strong marks of being entirely human-made.

Of more interest to me personally, it is also quite divorced from the main constructive roles that a deity could have: it does not understand transcendence, and it is only barely useful for inspiration, and even then with the most destructive side-effects known in human history.
 
Top