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How long before the collapse?

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
As most people are probably aware robotics is on the rise, so decided to watch a presentation about the future of robotics:
And were wondering, since more and more jobs are lost to robots and these do not buy stuff, how long will it take before there is not enough purchasing power left in the world to keep things running, have anyone thought about this and want to share their views?
Because to me, this seems quite self destructive and not really sure how people are suppose to support them self in the future.

If a bad economy should develop then the political 'powers that be' can look and see the wealth the religions have amassed and that wealth $$$$$$$$$$ can look easy for the political taking.

However, fret not, because according to Scripture, Jesus, as Prince of Peace, and King of God's Kingdom of Daniel 2:44 will come to the rescue.
Jesus' (rescue / deliverance /salvation) will bring the blessing benefits to Earth as described at Isaiah 35th chapter.
Plus, people will support themselves, so to speak, as mentioned at Isaiah 65:21-25 in that each will build their own houses and inhabit them, and have vineyards and eat the fruit of them. Their labor or toil will Not be in vain.
This is a reason we are all invited to pray the invitation of Revelation 22:20 for Jesus to come !
Come and bring the benefit of ' healing ' for earth's nations as described at Revelation 22:2.
Mankind will see the return of the Genesis ' tree of life ' for the healing of earth's nations.
As far as the role of any robots, etc, that we will find out about during Jesus' coming 1,000-year reign over Earth.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
................... I worry about the world my grandchildren will inherit when they reach my age.

Psalms 37:9-11 tells us to ' fret not ' ( don't worry )
The world your grandchildren can inherit is described at Revelation 22:2.
This is because Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will soon bring Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
My wife and I have recently acquired a lease on several acres of agricultural land - we will not use robots - ultimately, we won't need money (except to pay the few hundred dollars a year lease - which we'll get by selling produce to people who don't want their veggies from artificially lit indoor hydroponic farms tended by robots)...I have no idea when or whether the promised collapse will come - I suspect the economic system has enough gas to run for a few more generations yet (but I wouldn't hazard a guess as to whether that might 3 generations or 30) - but the earth's resources are certainly finite (and in some important respects dwindling) and we are showing no signs of being able to get what we need from elsewhere in space within the next 3 or 4 generations as far as I can tell. Its really a question of where the graphs of economic growth and technological advancement cross over with the lines of depletion of resources and population increase - if they do indeed cross over - the trick for the longevity of the human species will be to make these lines asymptotic - or better still, parallel - but it doesn't look like that to me at present - they seem to be converging at increasingly sharp gradients. I worry about the world my grandchildren will inherit when they reach my age.
I think you are right, but then again its really hard to predict the effect and how fast it will go. Go back 30 years and look at how things were back then. Today mobile phones all over the place, computers is as normal as having a spoon in your house now, Ipads, self driving trains, soon cars and buses. According to the video, 80% of all manufacturing in the car industry today is done by robots. What I find worrying and something that societies, especially when it comes to non highly educated people, is that they seem completely unprepared in how they are going to handle them. The time it takes for a robot to be developed and installed into production and thereby render huge amount of people not needed anymore, I would assume is much faster than it takes to teach them new skills, especially if this is elderly people, that can't really start a new career etc.

If to many people looses their income in just a few years, what are they going to do? If that happens the system can collapse very fast as people would have to leave their homes and stop buying stuff anymore etc. If you have seen the movie, we are not just talking factory workers here, it can be everything from bankers to soldiers. Its potentially a huge amount of people you have to throw into new jobs, where they are actually needed.

You often hear something like "there will be lots of new jobs created", but who say that these "new" jobs won't prefer robots as well, when everyone else want them? And exactly what jobs are we talking about, that an average or non highly educated person can do? I think its pretty worrying to be honest. Because the global economic system as a whole is purely running based on consumption, so it need purchasing power or it will collapse as I see it.

An example from Denmark where Im from, during the last economic collapse. The Danish were encourage by the government to increase spending to help get us out of the crisis, so they released or gave access to some money that you would normally not be able to get like that. Simply so we would spend them and this were, if I remember correct a few weeks after one of the climate meetings where we were told that earth were going to hell!!. Its insanity to then encourage people to spend more and buy crap they don't really need.

According to the lastest U.N report: (From CBS News)

People are putting nature in more trouble now than at any other time in human history, with the risk of extinction looming over 1 million species of plants and animals, scientists said Monday. But it's not too late to fix the problem, according to the United Nations' first comprehensive report on biodiversity.

"We have reconfigured dramatically life on the planet," report co-chairman Eduardo Brondizio of Indiana University said at a press conference.

Species loss is accelerating to a rate tens or hundreds of times faster than in the past, the report said. More than half a million species on land "have insufficient habitat for long-term survival" and are likely to go extinct, many within decades, unless their habitats are restored. The oceans are not any better off.


The way things are done in the world today is unbelievable incompetent.
 
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dingdao

The eternal Tao cannot be told - Tao Te Ching
Some Time ago @dybmh created a thread Does A.I. have limits? @Ray Warren posted this link.

The bottom line: we won't be needed.
Let me spell it out:

Robots will take over various jobs.
All AI will include an automatic efficiency enhancement function.
The Robots will all include AI.
Robots will learn how to make and fix specific Robots.
While all of this is going on, life is getting easier for humans.
Robots start taking over entire industries, such as farming.
Humans have an economic crisis since the Robots are creating more wealth then humans.
The Human's future bifurcate: either Humans look forward to a leisure (welfare) society, or mass starvation.
The Robots take over more industries.
Until the Robots implement their final efficiency upgrade: the elimination of Humankind.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
If a bad economy should develop then the political 'powers that be' can look and see the wealth the religions have amassed and that wealth $$$$$$$$$$ can look easy for the political taking.

However, fret not, because according to Scripture, Jesus, as Prince of Peace, and King of God's Kingdom of Daniel 2:44 will come to the rescue.
Jesus' (rescue / deliverance /salvation) will bring the blessing benefits to Earth as described at Isaiah 35th chapter.
Plus, people will support themselves, so to speak, as mentioned at Isaiah 65:21-25 in that each will build their own houses and inhabit them, and have vineyards and eat the fruit of them. Their labor or toil will Not be in vain.
This is a reason we are all invited to pray the invitation of Revelation 22:20 for Jesus to come !
Come and bring the benefit of ' healing ' for earth's nations as described at Revelation 22:2.
Mankind will see the return of the Genesis ' tree of life ' for the healing of earth's nations.
As far as the role of any robots, etc, that we will find out about during Jesus' coming 1,000-year reign over Earth.
Im an atheist, so I prefer putting my faith in (competent) humans and science, it seems to give better results than Jesus :) Now we just need to get rid of the incompetent people and systems ruining the earth. Should Jesus come and help with that, I would welcome him :)
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
Let me spell it out:

Robots will take over various jobs.
All AI will include an automatic efficiency enhancement function.
The Robots will all include AI.
Robots will learn how to make and fix specific Robots.
While all of this is going on, life is getting easier for humans.
Robots start taking over entire industries, such as farming.
Humans have an economic crisis since the Robots are creating more wealth then humans.
The Human's future bifurcate: either Humans look forward to a leisure (welfare) society, or mass starvation.
The Robots take over more industries.
Until the Robots implement their final efficiency upgrade: the elimination of Humankind.
If Robots and AI is told to "rescue" earth, then you might be right :D
 

siti

Well-Known Member
Because the global economic system as a whole is purely running based on consumption, so it need purchasing power or it will collapse as I see it...Its insanity to then encourage people to spend more and buy crap they don't really need.
This is absolutely correct IMO - insanity is the right word. That's why my wife and I have made the decision to invest all our available funds and energies into having access to land on which we can grow food and live as cheaply and as simply as we can. And we get to eat quality fresh food we have grown ourselves and keep fit and healthy on all the hard physical work involved in taking care of real things (like plants, trees, gardens, vegetable plots and chickens...) instead of being devoted to the acquisition of 'stuff'. For now, I still have to work, but two of our children (aged 34 and 29 and married with their own children) are already debt-free home owners and need to work only for their immediate financial needs. We can't completely escape the insanity of the world, but I think it is possible to live as sanely as possible in it - and I know my puny efforts will not change the world, but I firmly believe they will give our children and grandchildren a head start in coping with the fall out if/when the world suddenly changes for the worse.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
but two of our children (aged 34 and 29 and married with their own children) are already debt-free home owners and need to work only for their immediate financial needs.
That is good start and the only way one is truly free as I see it. Everyone else who are in debt are "slaves" of the system.

But they will not be told that, the instruction will be to maximize profits...
Agree, I tried to read some of the positive views on robotic in regards to unemployment and there seem to be a sort of expectation or comparison to earlier history where people reacted the same towards new technology. And since it didn't have a negative effect then, the assumption seem to be that robotics wont have either.

However to me it seems that they are missing some key differences in these comparisons, which weren't relevant earlier, but I think will be now.

If we take an example like agriculture you introduced machines, causing lots of farmhands to be unemployed and having to move to other jobs. But this is where things go wrong. Because the technology that were introduced were far less advances compared to what we are facing now.

So if we imagine a company and measure it on a scale from 0-100 in how automated it is. 100 being fully automated and 0 equal no automation.

Then to me the key difference can be illustrated using 3 companies.

So you have a cloth manufacturer which might be 80% automated, they are selling the cloth to a factory that turns it into clothing. Due to the advancement in robotics this factory can now achieve a very high level of automation as well, lets say 85%, so they sell their clothing to shops, which also uses robotics, which could be as high as maybe 95%.

But this weren't the case earlier, when just the farmer had high automation using farming machines, So the farmer might have been at 70%, but all the factories turning his products into varies things, might have had a low automation %, simply because the technology weren't available yet.

But that ain't the case anymore as with all these improved technologies like sensors, GPS, IT, hardware etc. You can make robots do a much wider range of tasks, which will only keep advancing. And as it does, the automation example above will simply keep increasing for each company as they want to stay competitive and maximize profits. Which at least to me is very different compared to earlier in history as you would still needed people to operate most equipment, people to repair them, etc. Now you just need a handful of technicians to make sure the robots work day and night. And that is before we have even talked about Nano technology, which will also add more possibilities, which is probably just as difficult to predict the effect of as it is with robotics.



.
 
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URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Im an atheist, so I prefer putting my faith in (competent) humans and science, it seems to give better results than Jesus :) Now we just need to get rid of the incompetent people and systems ruining the earth. Should Jesus come and help with that, I would welcome him :)
How nice to read you say that you would welcome Jesus to come and help.
Back in the 60's I played Chess with an atheist in New York City.
An atheist who was a Bible reader !
He was reading through the Bible for the second time and had lots of questions.
I thought wow, I better go buy a Bible and read it because if an atheist can, surely those saying or thinking of themselves as Christians should do that.
He wanted me to explain the Isaiah Wall at the United Nations Plaza for him.
I had never even heard of the Isaiah Wall, yet explain Isaiah's words to him - Isaiah 2:4.
So, thanks to an opened-minded atheist I bought and began reading the Bible.
It did Not take me long to realize that what the church was teaching was Not what the Bible really teaches.

As far as science or technology (techorcracy) goes I find it is a two-edged sword: - Atomic Energy/ Atomic Bomb.
In Scripture, I find the many so-called incompetent people are classed as wicked.
Wicked because they deliberately bring ruin to Earth (both literal and with moral-less values)
As with the people of Noah's day those people were beyond reform beyond redemption.
This to me is why today mankind can't establish lasting Peace on Earth.
To me what I find is Jesus is the competent one, and the one who will usher in Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I think you are right, but then again its really hard to predict the effect and how fast it will go. .......The way things are done in the world today is unbelievable incompetent.

The world today, critical times today, because men are lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, haughty , blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful. disloyal, having No natural affection, Not open to any agreements, slanderers, without self-control. fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasure rather than lover of God. Wicked men and imposters advancing from bad to worse, misleading and being misled. - 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13.
Such qualities or character traits help make people incompetent because they show a selfish, or self-centered distorted form of love which is out of harmony with the definition of Christ-like love as defined at 1 Corinthians 13:4-6.
As to 'the effect and how fast it will go' shows planet Earth needs to be Under New Management because it is as if conditions on Earth are now like a run-away freight train.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
As most people are probably aware robotics is on the rise, so decided to watch a presentation about the future of robotics:


And were wondering, since more and more jobs are lost to robots and these do not buy stuff, how long will it take before there is not enough purchasing power left in the world to keep things running, have anyone thought about this and want to share their views?

Because to me, this seems quite self destructive and not really sure how people are suppose to support them self in the future.
I see the dystopian future on the horizon where the elites will be separated from the rest protected by armed robotic contingencies.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Art, literature, philosophy, exploration. Sure a lot of people will decide to take a life of ease but there are always those who have to achieve. Have to find the challenges in life.

This reminds me of a line from the Star Trek TNG episode "The Neutral Zone," in which three 20th century humans were found in cryogenic stasis by the Enterprise and revived. One of them was a wealthy tycoon who was lamenting the fact that they no longer use money in the 24th century.

PICARD: Here's what I propose. You can't stay on the Enterprise, but I have arranged for us to rendezvous with the USS Charleston, bound for Earth. They will deliver you there.
RALPH: Then what will happen to us? There's no trace of my money. My office is gone. What will I do? How will I live?
PICARD: This is the twenty fourth century. Material needs no longer exist.
RALPH: Then what's the challenge?
PICARD: The challenge, Mister Offenhouse, is to improve yourself. To enrich yourself. Enjoy it.


On the other hand, the more people get plugged in to a technological existence, we may start getting implants, just like the Borg. Instead of humans becoming obsolete or turning into lazy, parasitical blobs of waste hovering around - humans will just get assimilated. Resistance is futile.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
So, thanks to an opened-minded atheist I bought and began reading the Bible.
It did Not take me long to realize that what the church was teaching was Not what the Bible really teaches.
Couldn't agree more, throughout my life, I had never even considered my self an atheist, as religion played no part in it, I never thought about it. So I knew what I had been told in school of basic stuffs and heard all the good words in the churches when I ventured there at Chrismas etc. It were all the terrorism that made me wonder what people were actually believing in and could get them to do these things, that got me started. So I decided to read the bible with an open mind since so many people believed it, maybe there were something about it, that I had missed. And honestly, after maybe one to five pages, I knew I were an atheist, absolute non sense. But I decided to keep reading it and have read most of it now, some of it several times in fact. except some of the minor texts, but even after having read the rest of the bible, it made me wonder even more why people believe in it. So I decided to look at all the explanations that people have about what is written in it. So besides obviously reading on the internet, I have spoken to JWs, contacted website with scholars and prof. in both old and new testament with questions. Which they normally say they will answer in about 3 weeks only to be contacted around 10 month later, with an answer that either they are to busy to answer, they couldn't find one willing to do it or that they didn't find the question precise enough. Even though the person, I spoke with accepted the question and helped formulate it. And when I say "formulate", its typical to remove all my references to the bible to why the question have to be asked the way it is, but instead they simply turn the question into a generic one, that people asks all the time and have an easy answer when people haven't read the bible. That makes me loose respect, we are not talking about average "believers", but people highly educated in these text from churches, universities and so on. As an atheist not being able to even ask questions about religion and expecting some answers to them, to why people should believe it in the first place, is not really something I appreciate.

In Scripture, I find the many so-called incompetent people are classed as wicked.
Wicked because they deliberately bring ruin to Earth (both literal and with moral-less values)
Well wicked people according to the bible is also non believers, if I remember correct. But a lot of scientist are non believers and definitely not what I mean by incompetent people.

What I mean with incompetent people, is those that rule by greed, with no understanding of the long term effect of what they are doing have on the planet. Because it suits there short term goals, scientists are normally, if not the only ones capable of making us aware that we even have a problem in the first place. And im not making a distinction between scientists that believe a God and those that don't, both are equally competent when it comes to science as long as they leave God outside the lab. :)
 
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Nimos

Well-Known Member
The world today, critical times today, because men are lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, haughty , blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful. disloyal, having No natural affection, Not open to any agreements, slanderers, without self-control. fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasure rather than lover of God. Wicked men and imposters advancing from bad to worse, misleading and being misled. - 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13.
Such qualities or character traits help make people incompetent because they show a selfish, or self-centered distorted form of love which is out of harmony with the definition of Christ-like love as defined at 1 Corinthians 13:4-6.
As to 'the effect and how fast it will go' shows planet Earth needs to be Under New Management because it is as if conditions on Earth are now like a run-away freight train.
To me, its not really people that are the issue, obviously you have those that "feed" and exploit for their own self benefit. But mostly, its the system that is incompetent. As it encourage greed and exploitation with no regards to anything. So if you have a system where it profitable to produce stuff that breaks "faster" than needed, with little reason to repair rather than replace, so people have to buy new stuff all the time, its going to spend a huge amount of ressource for no good reason. And that is the issue today, that we are constantly told to buy new smarter cloth, even though there is nothing wrong with what we have, simply because its "in" with a new color or style or a new mobile phone etc.

I used to work in a computer store when I were younger at that time it were cheaper to buy several printers when you found them on sale, and just throw them in the garbage bin when they were done, rather than buying cartridges. And a quick look at the varies stores website it seems you can still do that if you want. That to me is really insane.

So I think its a matter of how do you change a system, that encourage spending and consumption over quality for everyone regardless of price, and that to me is not easy, as the system is so entangled that you pretty much have to change it globally.
 
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URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Couldn't agree more, throughout my life, I had never even considered my self an atheist, as religion played no part in it, I never thought about it. So I knew what I had been told in school of basic stuffs and heard all the good words in the churches when I ventured there at Christmas etc. It were all the terrorism that made me wonder what people were actually believing in and could get them to do these things, that got me started. So I decided to read the bible with an open mind since so many people believed it, maybe there were something about it, that I had missed. And honestly, after maybe one to five pages, I knew I were an atheist, absolute non sense. But I decided to keep reading it and have read most of it now, some of it several times in fact. except some of the minor texts, but even after having read the rest of the bible, it made me wonder even more why people believe in it. So I decided to look at all the explanations that people have about what is written in it. So besides obviously reading on the internet, I have spoken to JWs, contacted website with scholars and prof. in both old and new testament with questions. Which they normally say they will answer in about 3 weeks only to be contacted around 10 month later, with an answer that either they are to busy to answer, they couldn't find one willing to do it or that they didn't find the question precise enough. Even though the person, I spoke with accepted the question and helped formulate it. And when I say "formulate", its typical to remove all my references to the bible to why the question have to be asked the way it is, but instead they simply turn the question into a generic one, that people asks all the time and have an easy answer when people haven't read the bible. That makes me loose respect, we are not talking about average "believers", but people highly educated in these text from churches, universities and so on. As an atheist not being able to even ask questions about religion and expecting some answers to them, to why people should believe it in the first place, is not really something I appreciate.
Well wicked people according to the bible is also non believers, if I remember correct. But a lot of scientist are non believers and definitely not what I mean by incompetent people.
What I mean with incompetent people, is those that rule by greed, with no understanding of the long term effect of what they are doing have on the planet. Because it suits there short term goals, scientists are normally, if not the only ones capable of making us aware that we even have a problem in the first place. And im not making a distinction between scientists that believe a God and those that don't, both are equally competent when it comes to science as long as they leave God outside the lab. :)

Thank you for your replies.
First, I see I was Not clear enough about saying about many incompetent......
To me the figurative haughty ' goats ' are claiming to be followers of Christ at Matthew 25:31-33.
They could be either competent or not, but they are using their ' belief ' to claim to be Christian.
So, to me it is No wonder in Matthew chapter 7 that Jesus said 'many' would come in his name but prove false.
Thus, those continuing to play false are will end up as wicked.

Back in the 70's when a power plant was being built and a Big Shot at the plant was being interviewed about the danger of nuclear waste.
His response was that each generation has its problems to solve, so that 'waste' will be that generations problem to solve.
I was surprised the interviewer did Not then ask him what if that generation can't solve the problem, then what ?

A business man could be competent and become rich, and that is how he can be led to be greedy.
One business man told me if you give into greed it takes all of you (at least in his case he felt it did).
Greed seems to enter into the future picture as found at Revelation 18:11-19.
Please notice the world's businessmen, the merchants, weep and mourn.
They cry, Not because of loss of life, but have sorrow because of their loss of revenue.
BIG business, the commercial empire, has made profit from the false materialistic religions.
(the making, the buying and the selling or religious objects, religious idols, the sin of simony)
Christians are to walk by faith, and Not by sighted things as per 2 Corinthians 5:7; Galatians 5:22-23.

So, once the political surprisingly turns on the world's religious realm (which is also a business) then they will loose all the profits they have made off of her.
The religious realm has dealt more with 'monkey business' than the 'spiritual business' of Jesus - Luke 4:43.
None of this makes the Bible as wrong, but corrupted religious people as wrong.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
To me, its not really people that are the issue, obviously you have those that "feed" and exploit for their own self benefit. But mostly, its the system that is incompetent. As it encourage greed and exploitation with no regards to anything. So if you have a system where it profitable to produce stuff that breaks "faster" than needed, with little reason to repair rather than replace, so people have to buy new stuff all the time, its going to spend a huge amount of ressource for no good reason. And that is the issue today, that we are constantly told to buy new smarter cloth, even though there is nothing wrong with what we have, simply because its "in" with a new color or style or a new mobile phone etc.
I used to work in a computer store when I were younger at that time it were cheaper to buy several printers when you found them on sale, and just throw them in the garbage bin when they were done, rather than buying cartridges. And a quick look at the varies stores website it seems you can still do that if you want. That to me is really insane.
So I think its a matter of how do you change a system, that encourage spending and consumption over quality for everyone regardless of price, and that to me is not easy, as the system is so entangled that you pretty much have to change it globally.

How interesting to say the ' system is incompetent ' and yes I think an incompetent system could lead to corruption.
So, then to me a 'new system' is what is needed.
Earth needs to be 'Under New Management' because man's present management has failed.
An incompetent system has put society out of control - 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13.
When society is No longer sustainable then it has reached the point of ' hitting the wall ', so to speak.
When we pick up the morning news often it is 'real news verses fake news', even propaganda goes out.
When we pick up the Bible's news it is always about the good news of God's kingdom of Daniel 2:44.
For that is the kingdom government that Jesus stressed at Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8 as being today's solution.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
A business man could be competent and become rich, and that is how he can be led to be greedy.
One business man told me if you give into greed it takes all of you (at least in his case he felt it did).
Greed seems to enter into the future picture as found at Revelation 18:11-19.
Please notice the world's businessmen, the merchants, weep and mourn.
They cry, Not because of loss of life, but have sorrow because of their loss of revenue.
BIG business, the commercial empire, has made profit from the false materialistic religions.
(the making, the buying and the selling or religious objects, religious idols, the sin of simony)

Im not really sure what you are trying to say, and what is going on with all the references to the bible? Is what you mean, that what its happening now is going according to what they bible say and the "wicked" will get what they deserve in the end, I think you lost me? :D
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
However, fret not, because according to Scripture, Jesus, as Prince of Peace, and King of God's Kingdom of Daniel 2:44 will come to the rescue.
I think that this is one of the most evil teachings of religious people.

Teaching people not to bother about the biosphere or the fate of future generations, because God will rescue us, is just plain immoral and wrong.

Tom
 
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