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Church Planting

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
India has been pluralistic. Attempt to pass anti conversion bills could never go past parliament. People like us from centre or left of centre were always against an anti conversion bill, fearing potential for mis-use.



But we have been witness to the arrogance of Christian missionaries supported by billions of dollars coming into India.

Since 1990s, people’s perception about these coercive conversion tactics using allurements has turned adverse . People rightfully feel that it is like entering someone’s house as a guest and then instigating dissensions and divisions to gain influence. Furthermore, the presumption that Christianity is superior to Hinduism and can offer any spiritual solace to Hindus is rubbish.

Majority of Hindus are not votaries of Hindutva. But majority abhor Christian proselytism.

Another aspect that bothers me is the false indoctrination about Hinduism that they come in with. Usually when two strangers meet, they discuss in both directions, as both parties are curious as to exactly what the other one is up to. Hinduism has strong ethics, strong family values, abhors violence, takes care of its elders, respects the planet, has incredibly deep philosophical systems, and much more. It's rich. But what's taught about it is the 'rigid' caste system, false Gods, and all that. Often words like 'Gandhi' are misspelled, demonstrating a total lack of knowledge or respect. In Sri Lanka the kids from Catholic schools were taught to spit on the Hindu shrines as they walked to school.

So it's a one way conversation, one side telling all, and the other listening. Sad, really. So much to learn, an opportunity wasted. The few Christians who do listen and ask questions are often amazed.

So the question should be, "Who should be teaching whom?" But of course most Hindus won't bother to share because they fully know the newcomer won't be able to understand. We have to wait a few lifetimes before they're ready for such depth.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Along with Morocco, Syria, United Arab Emirates, Afghanistan, and Uzbekistan.
All sorts of great places to live. Bastions of human rights.
I totally concur with you about that. In some of those places, it's illegal to practice, let alone proselytise. Hindus get arrested for putting up a picture of a Hindu god, Not sure if Christians get arrested for putting up a picture of Christ. Could be.
 

Sirona

Hindu Wannabe
To be fair, I can't even image being in such dire straits that I'd considering conversion in order to receive food or healthcare. But due to my handicap I get regular invitations to the local Christian group for the handicapped just because of my health situation. Their events always involve preaching and I always decline. The others (in a marginalized group, many know each other) possibly think I don't like them but I just don't like being preached to. What should I do, leave the room during the sermon? Church activities are often declared as "merely" socializing. Some people there are so severely handicapped that this group is their only way to socialize at all. Now, is this group a good thing because it enables socializing for people who otherwise couldn't socialize? Or is it a bad thing because it exposes people of other faiths to unwanted preaching?
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Yes. Far more common than you think. Rice Christian - Wikipedia
Hmmmm, giving money for conversion is obviously wrong, and a surface Christian is really not a Christian. Those Christians who do this are totally betraying the Christian concept of a person converting because of conviction, not money.

I am still confused regarding food, clothing etc. Do these churches require people to convert before they can receive these items, or are they dispersed solely on the basis of need ad Conversion results from free choice separate from anything they receive ?

The latter is they way these things are handled in the US, and in my experience. When working with the Salvation Army, I was in charge of a food bank for the poor. We distributed food to whoever asked, with no reference to religion.

The only exception may be soup kitchens in skid row areas of big cities. Here the homeless, winoś and addicts are served hot meals daily for free. In some, while they are eating a sermon is given. Of course, conversion is never required, and most who have nothing consider hot meals for a sermon a good tradeoff.

There have been conversions, and Christianity allowed them to vastly improve their life, but it is never required or forced on them.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
I totally concur with you about that. In some of those places, it's illegal to practice, let alone proselytise. Hindus get arrested for putting up a picture of a Hindu god, Not sure if Christians get arrested for putting up a picture of Christ. Could be.
Christians are being eliminated in those countries, murdered. I know the Bahai, and probably hinduś are being murdered as well.

Christians and Sikhś are the special targets.

Sad, when you think most Middle Eastern countries were Christian, till ol mo invaded.

Physical force coupled with religion, any religion is a hellish combination.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Another aspect that bothers me is the false indoctrination about Hinduism that they come in with. Usually when two strangers meet, they discuss in both directions, as both parties are curious as to exactly what the other one is up to. Hinduism has strong ethics, strong family values, abhors violence, takes care of its elders, respects the planet, has incredibly deep philosophical systems, and much more. It's rich. But what's taught about it is the 'rigid' caste system, false Gods, and all that. Often words like 'Gandhi' are misspelled, demonstrating a total lack of knowledge or respect. In Sri Lanka the kids from Catholic schools were taught to spit on the Hindu shrines as they walked to school.

So it's a one way conversation, one side telling all, and the other listening. Sad, really. So much to learn, an opportunity wasted. The few Christians who do listen and ask questions are often amazed.

So the question should be, "Who should be teaching whom?" But of course most Hindus won't bother to share because they fully know the newcomer won't be able to understand. We have to wait a few lifetimes before they're ready for such depth.

Yes. That is the first thing proselytisers of all shades do first -- paint the other party as impotent. And when the backlash happens then cry foul.

The following articles summarise the issues.

Missionaries in India: Conversion or Coercion? | HuffPost
Conversion: With targets & incentives, new breed of evangelical groups are like start-ups

The main problem is imposition of a wrong spirituality through inducements and allurements. The basis of all these is that 'Satanic Hindus' need to be educated, to be converted. Below, I reproduce two sample texts from pamphlets of Christian missionaries.

Did you know that the Sonar people of Maharashtra, India, are the primary crafters of gold and silver Hindu idols? These idols are the most powerful stronghold that Satan has upon the Hindu worshipers in India and around the world. When the Sonar people embrace the gospel of Jesus Christ, the subsequent change in their livelihood could have a huge ripple effect in the world of Hinduism. As one international Christian worker said, "When we reach the Sonar with the gospel, we will see the collapse of Hinduism." Pray that the gospel would flow through and permeate the Sonar culture like molten silver fills a mold.'

or

Anyone who is familiar with India knows that India has always been a challenge to the Gospel. Hinduism that teaches, "Just as all rivers lead to the ocean, all religions lead to God", dominates the thinking of the masses. Many Hindus revere Jesus as another god. Yet their eyes are blinded to the uniqueness of Christ.'{/quote]
This in my opinion is actually the 'satanism'.

The master plan is the Joshua Project and support from the conservative USA.

Joshua Project

Christian mission - Wikipedia

While there is a general agreement among most major aid organizations not to mix aid with proselyting, others see disasters as a useful opportunity to spread the word. One such an occurrence was the tsunami that devastated parts of Asia on December 26, 2004.[46]
"This (disaster) is one of the greatest opportunities God has given us to share his love with people," said K.P. Yohannan, president of the Texas-based Gospel for Asia. In an interview, Yohannan said his 14,500 "native missionaries" in India, Sri Lanka and the Andaman Islands are giving survivors Bibles and booklets about "how to find hope in this time through the word of God." In Krabi, Thailand, a Southern Baptist church had been "praying for a way to make inroads" with a particular ethnic group of fishermen, according to Southern Baptist relief coordinator Pat Julian. Then came the tsunami, "a phenomenal opportunity" to provide ministry and care, Julian told the Baptist Press news service.... Not all evangelicals agree with these tactics. "It's not appropriate in a crisis like this to take advantage of people who are hurting and suffering", said the Rev. Franklin Graham, head of Samaritan's Purse and son of evangelist Billy Graham."[47]
The Christian Science Monitor echoes these concerns... "'I think evangelists do this out of the best intentions, but there is a responsibility to try to understand other faith groups and their culture,'says Vince Isner, director of FaithfulAmerica.org, a program of the National Council of Churches USA."[48]

The Bush administration has made it easier for U.S. faith-based groups and missionary societies to tie aid and church together.

For decades, US policy has sought to avoid intermingling government programs and religious proselytizing. The aim is both to abide by the Constitution's prohibition against a state religion and to ensure that aid recipients don't forgo assistance because they don't share the religion of the provider.... But many of those restrictions were removed by Bush in a little-noticed series of executive orders – a policy change that cleared the way for religious groups to obtain hundreds of millions of dollars in additional government funding. It also helped change the message American aid workers bring to many corners of the world, from emphasizing religious neutrality to touting the healing powers of the Christian God.[49]

These conservative efforts are not spiritualism. Often times the goal is politicsl-militarism as is shown by the following document.

The Pentagon’s Unholy Alliance with Missionaries
 
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shmogie

Well-Known Member
This is the exact example of arrogance that we mentioned.

I can see that inducements will enter your own house and you will know.
Arrogance ? because I make reasonable deductions ? You never answer questions you never bother to offer counter facts or counter reasoning,

you just use pejorative language and and never explain yourself.

I don´t think you can offer a counter argument, other than you don´t like people leaving your religion for another, or receiving aid that your religion doesn´t offer.

There are other religions where the freedom of choice for the individual is denied, Islam being the worst offender.

However, I never though I would hear a Hindu representing his religion in this way.

My own daughter Left a Christian home, and over a few years became an atheist, I don´t know or care if some kind of inducement was involved. She had the right to choose and made her choice, she is totally free to do that, and though I think she made a terrible choice, I totally respect her right of free will.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Vedas teach "The Truth is one. Sages call it by different names'.

But the Christian and Muslim credo is something like "We only know. We only have the access to the truth". The imposition that starts from this belief is destructive. The Christian credo, which, imo, is not what Jesus taught, is a major catalyst for problems around the world.

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye;
and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.


Why do missionary Christians think that they know God better? When all that they preach go against common sense and science?
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Evangelism is actually business.

https://philanthropy.iupui.edu/files/file/sarah_hammond_final_dissertation_april2010.pdf

Groups such as the Christian Business Men’s Committee International (CBMCI), the Business Men’s Evangelistic Clubs (BMEC), and the Gideons believed that businessmen were God’s instruments to Christianize the world. As salesmen, they saw themselves a cadre of expert manipulators.15 If they could convince the masses to buy their products, then they must try to bend them to God’s will. According to the BMEC’s Vernon W. Patterson, an early patron of Billy Graham, “In business, [the layman] is accustomed to promote the sale and distribution of merchandise or commodities of all kinds...[W]hy should not such systematic planning be extended to carry the gospel to the ends of the earth?”16 Following nineteenth-century precedent, the CBMCI in the North, Midwest, West, and Canada, and the BMEC in the South furnished money and personnel for a range of evangelistic programs.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Christians are being eliminated in those countries, murdered. I know the Bahai, and probably hinduś are being murdered as well.

Christians and Sikhś are the special targets.

Sad, when you think most Middle Eastern countries were Christian, till ol mo invaded.

Physical force coupled with religion, any religion is a hellish combination.

In Malaysia there is a loose alliance between Christians, Hindus, and more opposing Islamisation. If the minorities all get together, there is more power.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Evangelism is actually business.

https://philanthropy.iupui.edu/files/file/sarah_hammond_final_dissertation_april2010.pdf

Groups such as the Christian Business Men’s Committee International (CBMCI), the Business Men’s Evangelistic Clubs (BMEC), and the Gideons believed that businessmen were God’s instruments to Christianize the world. As salesmen, they saw themselves a cadre of expert manipulators.15 If they could convince the masses to buy their products, then they must try to bend them to God’s will. According to the BMEC’s Vernon W. Patterson, an early patron of Billy Graham, “In business, [the layman] is accustomed to promote the sale and distribution of merchandise or commodities of all kinds...[W]hy should not such systematic planning be extended to carry the gospel to the ends of the earth?”16 Following nineteenth-century precedent, the CBMCI in the North, Midwest, West, and Canada, and the BMEC in the South furnished money and personnel for a range of evangelistic programs.
I think it's changing for the better, though. Hindus are waking up. As long as we don't go too far, everything will be okay. You can shut the door in a peaceful way.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Bush's Conversion Agenda for India: Preparing for the harvest ... (Tehelka) | Christian Mission | Evangelism

A major policy decision taken very early into his presidency, Bush, on January 29, 2001, unveiled a "faith based" social service initiative that included a new White House office to promote government aid to churches and Christian faith-based organisations. This, in effect, threw the massive weight of the federal government behind religious groups and religious conversions. The Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives was set up in the White House in the first week of February 2002 and a man called Jim Towey was appointed director.
 
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atanu

Member
Premium Member
My personal opinion is that the far right Christians and far right Hindus light the bonfire and then they revel together.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
In Malaysia there is a loose alliance between Christians, Hindus, and more opposing Islamisation. If the minorities all get together, there is more power.
When I read what the invading muslims did to the Sikh´s, I an very saddened.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Vedas teach "The Truth is one. Sages call it by different names'.

But the Christian and Muslim credo is something like "We only know. We only have the access to the truth". The imposition that starts from this belief is destructive. The Christian credo, which, imo, is not what Jesus taught, is a major catalyst for problems around the world.

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye;
and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.


Why do missionary Christians think that they know God better? When all that they preach go against common sense and science?
When Christ said ¨ I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man comes to the Father but by me¨ He sent his followers out to preach his message, because, literally, it is a matter of life and death.

He made it clear He loves all of humanity, no matter how wretched or sinful.

Unlike any other religion , there is absolutely nothing a person can do to be in harmony with God. Mens works and jumping through hoops are meaningless to God.

Salvation is given freely to all who ask, faith is what is important. Not faith in many gods, or the wrong one but rather the one revealed in and through Christ.

We were told to share this message with the world, so that they can have an informed choice about Christianity, the choice is totally theirs.

We don´t spread the Gospel because it is fun, it can be decidedly unfun, even deadly, we do it because God wants all to have the opportunity of salvation.

¨ All they preach goes against science and common sense ¨ ?

You will have to tell me about that, since I have no idea what you mean
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Evangelism is actually business.

https://philanthropy.iupui.edu/files/file/sarah_hammond_final_dissertation_april2010.pdf

Groups such as the Christian Business Men’s Committee International (CBMCI), the Business Men’s Evangelistic Clubs (BMEC), and the Gideons believed that businessmen were God’s instruments to Christianize the world. As salesmen, they saw themselves a cadre of expert manipulators.15 If they could convince the masses to buy their products, then they must try to bend them to God’s will. According to the BMEC’s Vernon W. Patterson, an early patron of Billy Graham, “In business, [the layman] is accustomed to promote the sale and distribution of merchandise or commodities of all kinds...[W]hy should not such systematic planning be extended to carry the gospel to the ends of the earth?”16 Following nineteenth-century precedent, the CBMCI in the North, Midwest, West, and Canada, and the BMEC in the South furnished money and personnel for a range of evangelistic programs.
So ?
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Bush's Conversion Agenda for India: Preparing for the harvest ... (Tehelka) | Christian Mission | Evangelism

A major policy decision taken very early into his presidency, Bush, on January 29, 2001, unveiled a "faith based" social service initiative that included a new White House office to promote government aid to churches and Christian faith-based organisations. This, in effect, threw the massive weight of the federal government behind religious groups and religious conversions. The Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives was set up in the White House in the first week of February 2002 and a man called Jim Towey was appointed director.
So ? Faith based meant by any religion. It is Christian groups who respond to disasters, and provide a whole range of services to those who require it.

As far as I can tell, the Muslims and Hinduś are missing in action on this front.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
So ? Faith based meant by any religion. It is Christian groups who respond to disasters, and provide a whole range of services to those who require it.

In the Nepalese earthquakes RSS (Hindu) was the very first group on the front lines. Many disaster relief charities are secular, and many don't advertise. So it's actually hard to tell. Lots of folks do charity work and don't say anything about it. Millions of Hindu pilgrims are fed daily in temples across India, as are the nearby poor. The larger Sikh temples in North America have daily langar. (free food all day) But the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Here's a list of Indian NGOs ... List of Indian NGOs to donate online, certified by GiveIndia
 
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Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
He made it clear He loves all of humanity, no matter how wretched or sinful.

Hindus are wretched and sinful and need saving? Seriously bro, seriously? Even though Hinduism literally wrote the book on devotion to God?

Unlike any other religion , there is absolutely nothing a person can do to be in harmony with God. Mens works and jumping through hoops are meaningless to God.

Even though what Jesus said about being the way to salvation; teaching God; being the alpha and omega; having intimate knowledge of God; his transfiguration; his talks about not being attached to the world comes largely from the Bhagavad Gita? Conservatively it can be dated to about 950 BCE, during the Kurukshetra War in the Mahābhārata. I’d say we have an almost 1,000 year leg-up on you guys. Nothing like taking credit for someone else’s work.
 
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