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Church Planting

atanu

Member
Premium Member
violence on culture?????

You mean, if I love my neighbor as myself, I'm being violent?

Never heard of that definition... maybe its a cultural thing.

Not at all. It is not love that you are displaying. Even in your post it is clear.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
India has been the birthplace of major pluralistic religions. It has also accommodated peacefully people of other religions, which are not so pluralistic.

When Christians and Muslims assume superiority and try to indoctrinate poor people through inducements (or by violence), tension is created.

Just too nice, and naive, historically. We didn't understand the mindset. Here's the full on forced conversions.

Forced conversion - Wikipedia
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
I will re-post views of two known peaceful religious persons on the issue.
.

It is impossible for me to reconcile myself to the idea of conversion after the style that goes on in India and elsewhere today. It is an error which is perhaps the greatest impediment to the world's progress toward peace. Why should a Christian want to convert a Hindu to Christianity? Why should he not be satisfied if the Hindu is a good or godly man? -- Mahatma Gandhi (Harijan: January 30, 1937)

Religion is important for humanity, but it should evolve with humanity. The first priority is to establish and develop the principle of pluralism in all religious traditions. If we, the religious leaders, cultivate a sincere pluralistic attitude, then everything will be more simple. It is good that most religious leaders are at least beginning to recognize other traditions, even though they may not approve of them. The next step is to accept that the idea of propagating religion is outdated. It no longer suits the times. -- H.H. Dalai Lama (All the People: A Conversation with the Dalai Lama on Money, Politics, and Life as it Could Be, 1999)
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I had a room renter, a converted Christian from Tiruchendur, in Tamil Nadu. The folks at the temple knew I had a room for rent, so his friend told him. Nice enough chap, and we visited quite a bit. He told me he knew he should return to Hinduism, as it was the family tradition, but the absolute fear of hell made it so he couldn't bring himself to de-convert. Poor guy, living in fear. I consoled him by saying, 'maybe next lifetime will be different', and he agreed, showing who he really was ... a Hindu. But too scared of friends and family back home, too scared of how he'd let his little church down if he de-converted, he was resigned to live out the rest of this lifetime with the lie.

Eventually he moved out. He really wanted a better stove and his own place.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
I think the need to feel superior to others is the root cause of most human failings. Arrogant behavior satisfies it.

Traditional Christianity's offer of Heaven (reward) or Hell (punishment) is a powerful motivator in recruitment on its own but it also makes a strong appeal to the arrogant side of human nature since God has Heaven reserved only for Christians.

Tolerance for religious pluralism only appeals to the good side of human nature. Traditional Christianity appeals to both the good and the arrogant sides of our nature.
Inducements to convert has been continuing since 1950s. Read the following archived news.

Christian missionaries under fire in India – archive, 1956 | India | The Guardian
Inducements. That is things that make the lives of the poor better. Why don´t the Hinduś improve the lives of the poor, then there wouldn´t be a problem.

The issue is simply that preservation of the majority religion against ¨threats¨ is the goal. The will of a single person, or all the people is quite irrelevant to maintaining the status quo.

The articles to which I have been referred and read are some great examples of hyperbole run amok, this is no different.

Why is allowing the people to make choices so abhorrent ?
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
[




....


Please do not divert from the main issue. It was noted in the first post that since 2000 there has been rise of the rightist politics that focuses on religious differences. It was pointed out that the arrogant and aggressive proselytism has created tension in society and helped intolerance to grow.

Church Planting | Gospel For India | Reach the Unreached at any cost
Church Planting — Central India Christian Mission
https://missionindia.org/church-planter-training/
...

One group's evangelization is another group's prose!ytism, which is violence on culture and belief system of the target group.
So, you hurl out statements, but refuse to explain them, wonderful.

What India´s right wingers do is irrelevant to the issue, that is political, not spiritual.

I guess you won´t attempt to explain what you mean by ¨arrogant¨ and ¨aggressive¨.

Sounds like hitler´s ¨big lie¨ to me.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
I had a room renter, a converted Christian from Tiruchendur, in Tamil Nadu. The folks at the temple knew I had a room for rent, so his friend told him. Nice enough chap, and we visited quite a bit. He told me he knew he should return to Hinduism, as it was the family tradition, but the absolute fear of hell made it so he couldn't bring himself to de-convert. Poor guy, living in fear. I consoled him by saying, 'maybe next lifetime will be different', and he agreed, showing who he really was ... a Hindu. But too scared of friends and family back home, too scared of how he'd let his little church down if he de-converted, he was resigned to live out the rest of this lifetime with the lie.

Eventually he moved out. He really wanted a better stove and his own place.
Were not all the things you reported of him his decisions ?

You say he was worried about hell. I would be worried about coming back as a rectal pinworm
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Were not all the things you reported of him his decisions ?

No. His parents (or grandparents, can't remember now.) were coerced by food. Sorry if I didn't state that clearly. Then he was indoctrinated from a young age. But there in TN everyone associates with everyone. For the most part everyone gets along. It's just the personal attitude towards stuff that varies. We would be his guest if we went there. I was just sorry for his pessimistic outlook on life.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
No. His parents (or grandparents, can't remember now.) were coerced by food. Sorry if I didn't state that clearly. Then he was indoctrinated from a young age. But there in TN everyone associates with everyone. For the most part everyone gets along. It's just the personal attitude towards stuff that varies. We would be his guest if we went there. I was just sorry for his pessimistic outlook on life.
Please, how were they coerced by food ? Were they told if they became Christians they would receive food ?

Or, Did they freely receive food, given to whoever wanted it, heard the Gospel, which they were not forced to listen to, and they changed their faith.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
"We'll build a school, a hospital, open a free clinic. Oh but btw, you have to be baptized as a Christian."

Seriously? Why not just build the school, the hospital, the free clinic because it's the "Christian" thing to do?

35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
Matthew 25:35-40

Nothing in there about conditions. Did I skip a verse? :shrug:
Nice quotation, some of my favorite verses.

There is evidence that these folk had to become Christians ?

The missionary endeavors I know about and have had a little involvement with simply provide aid.

If someone asks why, or what is believed, they are told.

A friend of mine, a Christian opthalmologist goes with a group all over the world to provide free eye surgeries. They provide the medical care for whoever needs it, their religion is not a factor.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Inducements. That is things that make the lives of the poor better. Why don´t the Hinduś improve the lives of the poor, then there wouldn´t be a problem.

The issue is simply that preservation of the majority religion against ¨threats¨ is the goal. The will of a single person, or all the people is quite irrelevant to maintaining the status quo.

The articles to which I have been referred and read are some great examples of hyperbole run amok, this is no different.

Why is allowing the people to make choices so abhorrent ?

This is the exact example of arrogance that we mentioned.

I can see that inducements will enter your own house and you will know.
 
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atanu

Member
Premium Member
India has been pluralistic. Attempt to pass anti conversion bills could never go past parliament. People like us from centre or left of centre were always against an anti conversion bill, fearing potential for mis-use.

State Anti-conversion Laws in India

Following India’s independence, the Parliament introduced a number of anti-conversion bills, but none were enacted. First, the Indian Conversion (Regulation and Registration) Bill was introduced in 1954, which sought to enforce “licensing of missionaries and the registration of conversion with government officials.”[6] This bill failed to gather majority support in the lower house of Parliament and was rejected by its members. This was followed by the introduction of the Backward Communities (Religious Protection) Bill in 1960, “which aimed at checking conversion of Hindus to ‘non-Indian religions’ which, as per the definition in the Bill, included Islam, Christianity, Judaism and Zoroastrianism,”[7] and the Freedom of Religion Bill in 1979, which sought “official curbs on inter-religious conversion.”[8] These bills were also not passed by Parliament due to a lack of parliamentary support.

But we have been witness to the arrogance of Christian missionaries supported by billions of dollars coming into India.

Since 1990s, people’s perception about these coercive conversion tactics using allurements has turned adverse . People rightfully feel that it is like entering someone’s house as a guest and then instigating dissensions and divisions to gain influence. Furthermore, the presumption that Christianity is superior to Hinduism and can offer any spiritual solace to Hindus is rubbish.

Majority of Hindus are not votaries of Hindutva. But majority abhor Christian proselytism.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
...The issue is simply that preservation of the majority religion against ¨threats¨ is the goal. The will of a single person, or all the people is quite irrelevant to maintaining the status quo.
I agree with you that the government is acting to protect the interests of the dominant religion. I don't approve of their involvement. But I also think that the recruitment tactics of Christian churches have been effective but unethical since the foundation of the religion.

I think it's morally wrong to use reward (Heaven) and punishment (Hell) tactics to coerce the minds of children and implant fear that will remain with them as adults. That amounts to theft of their adult free will choice.
.
I've read of progressive Christian churches that have taken Hell out of their teachings. They focus on using Christ as an exemplar of living well. I'm sure they won't be as successful as traditional Christianity has been but, if teaching ethics is the goal, that's a better approach.
 
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Koldo

Outstanding Member
I will re-post views of two known peaceful religious persons on the issue.
.

It is impossible for me to reconcile myself to the idea of conversion after the style that goes on in India and elsewhere today. It is an error which is perhaps the greatest impediment to the world's progress toward peace. Why should a Christian want to convert a Hindu to Christianity? Why should he not be satisfied if the Hindu is a good or godly man? -- Mahatma Gandhi (Harijan: January 30, 1937)

Religion is important for humanity, but it should evolve with humanity. The first priority is to establish and develop the principle of pluralism in all religious traditions. If we, the religious leaders, cultivate a sincere pluralistic attitude, then everything will be more simple. It is good that most religious leaders are at least beginning to recognize other traditions, even though they may not approve of them. The next step is to accept that the idea of propagating religion is outdated. It no longer suits the times. -- H.H. Dalai Lama (All the People: A Conversation with the Dalai Lama on Money, Politics, and Life as it Could Be, 1999)

In 1937, Ghandi said proselytism is "perhaps the greatest impediment to the world's progress toward peace. ". That couldn't be farther from the truth since two years later a world war started and it had absolutely nothing to do with that. It just goes to show that every statement, no matter if it comes from someone you respect, should be taken with a grain of salt.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Several states in India have banned it now, realising the harm it causes. Individuals can ban it by putting a sign on their doors. Some European countries frown on it. I'd have to do more research.

Along with Morocco, Syria, United Arab Emirates, Afghanistan, and Uzbekistan.
All sorts of great places to live. Bastions of human rights.
 
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