Ohio anti-abortion bill

FragrantGrace said:

Here's the article. Again.
Please don't be one of those, "I read it", but you really didn't because you admit you didn't read it after a very short time. Falsehoods don't help mature conversations proceed.

Sorry Snopes, But New York’s Abortion Law Means on Demand Any Time Before Birth

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I read it, and responded to part of it. You have yet to address my response.

Evangelicalhumanist said:

This is hard for me to say, but I honestly think that I would not have a huge problem if my government passed a law that outlawed third trimester abortions except for the most crucial of reasons, requiring independent medical consensus.

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I salute you.

Evangelicalhumanist said:

Yes, sometimes it does mean yes. But I sincerely wish you (and others) could stop always using the word "child." A few undifferentiated cells attaching themselves to the uterus is not a child. (That was hyperbole...nobody knows they're pregnant at this stage, so nobody's seeking abortion, with the possible exception of the so-called abortion pill which some use as "insurance.")

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I understand your position. As you know, we do have a different POV. And, of course, this will be the point of differences as we view things.

If a 21 week fetus is in the womb and can exist outside the womb, I would call it a child as my understanding and life-paradigm will factor into it. Many who support later abortions, would continue to call it a fetus. I just assume it is easier to deal with by calling it a fetus than a child.

I would assume, as medicine continues to improve its capacity, that even earlier gestation will still be viable.

Evangelicalhumanist said:

Ken, have you noticed who you are ignoring here? You are ignoring the women who were raped, and what their feeling on the matter is. That so many women who have been raped, including your own examples, have chosen to carry to term, and even to bring up the child in a loving home, is wonderful, and I applaud them with all my heart. But I cannot find it within me to fault the girl or woman who cannot do that, who cannot bring herself to face 9 months of having this "unwanted intrusion" foist upon her, only to bring it forth in pain...and then have to decide what to do with it.

Are you sure you know enough to speak for them? Are you sure that their psychological pain is not just as real, and just as terrible, as any physical torture? I'm not, and in the end, I am forced to leave it to them to decide, not to me.

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Of course I cannot speak for everybody. Certainly not ignoring them as we are simply discussing viewpoints. As you mentioned, no one can cause the world to conform to any position or standard.

And to clarify, I'm not trying to heap "fault" on any person. My sisters had abortions, many in our church had abortions but we certainly don't heap fault or force anyone to conform. We provide loving support when people make decisions however I may feel it was a wrong decision.

Speaking only in my view, psychological pain will be obvious whether they have a baby, never got pregnant or had an abortion because they were raped. Heaven knows that there are many people who have psychological problems for having abortions too. So no matter how you slice or dice it--pregnant, not pregnant, abortion, no abortion -- psychological pain will be present.

As I said before, when emotions run high, intelligent decisions go low (IMV). You can't tell what the future will hold. Those with psychological pain may find healing in having the baby, as so many have... if they deem it an intrusion, let's make adoption lest costly, give the baby, and still provide psychological help.

I think if we all just love the person who is going through it, anyone can overcome.

Evangelicalhumanist said:

And well and good for her, that does indeed happen. I too, although no angel, am not a bad influence on those around me. But again I point out to you, this is an imperfect world, and not all outcomes are the same...and there's nothing that you or I can do about it. Therefore, there's no reason for you or I to be part of the decision.

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I wish it were that easy.

Evangelicalhumanist said:

Ken, this is a nonsense question...it is not well thought out, and it is effectively meaningless. If I "would have preferred not being birthed," then I might very likely have committed suicide, which I have not. I am, in fact very content with the fact that I exist, and am grateful for my life.

But the reason that the question is nonsense is that you are asking me, an existing person, what I would think about not existing. Yet, had I been aborted, I would not exist, and there would therefore not be any me to contemplate the question, for good or ill.

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Ok, maybe I said it wrong. My point, with examples, is that everyone that is born has an impact. I just don't feel qualified to say "This one is not worth his life"... ultimately I think it comes back to haunt us. Knowing how things are never stagnant, If a child is handicapped in the womb and not worth his life, then why not the 2 year old? I think that if we become calloused before birth, then we eventually become calloused after birth.

Just my reasoning...

Appreciate the dialogue and have a great day

FragrantGrace said:

Atheists have nothing to say because they are fools, according to scripture. And God does not know them.

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So you worship a very EVIL and MALICIOUS god, then?

Okay. What does that say about you?

FragrantGrace said:

Trump is far more Christian than you.

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Really? Let's list the SINS that tЯump has broken?

1) Envy. Well-- looking at his campaign speeches makes it obvious he's envious of all the Dictators in other countries. Check.

2) Lust. "Grab'em by the p----" and "When you are rich they let you do that" and "If she were not my daughter I'd be ******" Check.

3) Gluttony. We have countless photos of him stuffing his fat face. Check.

4) Greed. Well.... do I really need to expound on this one? Check.

5) Sloth. Looking at his baggy suits, his many saggy, unkept clothes when he's Golfing instead of being President? Check.

6) Wrath. Oh. This is even easier than Greed. His many angry tweets... Check.

7) Pride. This is the easiest of all. "I'm a very stable genius". CHECK!

ALL OF THE SEVEN DEADLY SINS HAVE BEEN COMMITTED BY tЯump-- MULTIPLE TIMES OVER.

But he's a Good Christian? Wow. The bar for being one of those is .... quite low.

Quite low indeed.

Makes me happy I'm not one.

KenS said:

I salute you.



I understand your position. As you know, we do have a different POV. And, of course, this will be the point of differences as we view things.

If a 21 week fetus is in the womb and can exist outside the womb, I would call it a child as my understanding and life-paradigm will factor into it. Many who support later abortions, would continue to call it a fetus. I just assume it is easier to deal with by calling it a fetus than a child.

I would assume, as medicine continues to improve its capacity, that even earlier gestation will still be viable.




Of course I cannot speak for everybody. Certainly not ignoring them as we are simply discussing viewpoints. As you mentioned, no one can cause the world to conform to any position or standard.

And to clarify, I'm not trying to heap "fault" on any person. My sisters had abortions, many in our church had abortions but we certainly don't heap fault or force anyone to conform. We provide loving support when people make decisions however I may feel it was a wrong decision.

Speaking only in my view, psychological pain will be obvious whether they have a baby, never got pregnant or had an abortion because they were raped. Heaven knows that there are many people who have psychological problems for having abortions too. So no matter how you slice or dice it--pregnant, not pregnant, abortion, no abortion -- psychological pain will be present.

As I said before, when emotions run high, intelligent decisions go low (IMV). You can't tell what the future will hold. Those with psychological pain may find healing in having the baby, as so many have... if they deem it an intrusion, let's make adoption lest costly, give the baby, and still provide psychological help.

I think if we all just love the person who is going through it, anyone can overcome.



I wish it were that easy.



Ok, maybe I said it wrong. My point, with examples, is that everyone that is born has an impact. I just don't feel qualified to say "This one is not worth his life"... ultimately I think it comes back to haunt us. Knowing how things are never stagnant, If a child is handicapped in the womb and not worth his life, then why not the 2 year old? I think that if we become calloused before birth, then we eventually become calloused after birth.

Just my reasoning...

Appreciate the dialogue and have a great day

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One day, in the not too distant future?

All abortions will never be needed again.

Because of Artificial Wombs. Then? All unwanted fetuses can be removed to an artificial womb, for safekeeping and care by the Pro Life crowd.

Right? What's that? They absolutely refuse to care for any of these unwanted fetuses?

Yeah.... we figured that out long, long ago....

FragrantGrace said:

Trump is far more Christian than you.
God knows his own.

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So,
Trump's long history of greed, lust, fame, and deceit makes him a Christian.
Got it.

Yuck. Christianity.
But it will get you to the pinnacle of temporal power, given what Christians believe in.
Tom

Bob the Unbeliever said:

One day, in the not too distant future?

All abortions will never be needed again.

Because of Artificial Wombs. Then? All unwanted fetuses can be removed to an artificial womb, for safekeeping and care by the Pro Life crowd.

Right? What's that? They absolutely refuse to care for any of these unwanted fetuses?

Yeah.... we figured that out long, long ago....

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you never know.

columbus said:

So,
Trump's long history of greed, lust, fame, and deceit makes him a Christian.
Got it.

Yuck. Christianity.
But it will get you to the pinnacle of temporal power, given what Christians believe in.
Tom

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You have nothing.
Amazing! Really. Someone spends that much time in a religious forum that has Christian members and they know absolutely ZERO about Christianity.

Bob the Unbeliever said:

Really? Let's list the SINS that tЯump has broken?

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Makes me glad too.
Yet another one that spends so much time in a religious forum and yet demonstrates ZERO knowledge of the faith itself.

FragrantGrace said:

Amazing! Really. Someone spends that much time in a religious forum that has Christian members and they know absolutely ZERO about Christianity.

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Actually, I was raised in a conservative Christian family and went to 12 years of Christian school.
So, yeah. I know that Trump isn't remotely Christian.
And you have told me enough to form an opinion about you as well.
Tom

SkepticThinker said:

I read it, and responded to part of it. You have yet to address my response.

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First you said you read it. Then you said you only read a small portion. Then you proved in your remarks you didn't actually read any of it.
There was therefore nothing to respond to. Because not reading the full article , you didn't know what you were talking about.

Evangelicalhumanist said:

This is hard for me to say, but I honestly think that I would not have a huge problem if my government passed a law that outlawed third trimester abortions except for the most crucial of reasons, requiring independent medical consensus.

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It's worth pointing out that women have died this way. Including one horrible case where hesitation while waiting or the fetus to die caused her to go into septic shock and die too. When you add beurocracy to evaluate a time critical emergency case you tempt them to hesitate. Imo one doctor, her doctor, should be enough to make that call.

Personally I think all a woman should need to end a pregnancy is the desire to no longer be pregnant, but that live abortion (abortion doesn't mean killing the fetus just ending the pregnancy. Early cesarian prior to labor is also an abortiton.) should be done at viability unless the doctor deems the surgery too risky.

FragrantGrace said:

You don't know much about Sharia.

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Oh really?

You do not know much about me......... clearly.

FragrantGrace said:

Agreed. It is her conscience. Personally, I am against later term, third trimester, abortion. I think a woman who wants to abort in the late third trimester should be put under, her baby delivered, and her clinic or hospital intake form contained language that insured her parental rights were fully terminated the moment she asked for her full term baby to be killed in utero.
Then when she wakes up, no baby. Just like she wanted.

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So you obviously think that the idiots in Ohio who seek to control various contraceptives and ban all abortions are just that..? Obviously.

So why were you calling me Snopes?

Operation Rescue is the hard right hyper extreme nutter bunch. Not pro-life in the least. They're domestic terrorists.

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So you agree with me about such criminals.

It would appear that, mostly, you're in violent agreement with us members who think the whole bunch are self-righteous liabilities?

FragrantGrace said:

Here's the article. Again.
Please don't be one of those, "I read it", but you really didn't because you admit you didn't read it after a very short time. Falsehoods don't help mature conversations proceed.

Sorry Snopes, But New York’s Abortion Law Means on Demand Any Time Before Birth

Click to expand...

What's that? !!!

I am waiting for the promised link which shows that Ohio leaders who seek to ban all abortions and many contraceptives are prepared to offer WHOLE LIFE medicare and living allowances to anybody born disabled, and full medicare, education and child allowances to ALL CHILDREN in Ohio until adulthood.

Please don't tell me about New York.

Oh....... and should they force a woman to give birth to a baby conceived during rape they can pay for all her needs and costs for life.

If they want to force women to bear children then they need to show that they really are pro-life, which of course most of them are not. They don't give a hoot for thge child after birth, you know.

Evangelicalhumanist said:

This is hard for me to say, but I honestly think that I would not have a huge problem if my government passed a law that outlawed third trimester abortions except for the most crucial of reasons, requiring independent medical consensus.

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The controversy over late-term abortions is manufactured and disingenuous. When abortions happen in the later in a pregnancy, what it really is euthanasia of a non-viable fetus. These are fetuses with severe deformities, genetic, chromosomal, etc. conditions that are confirmed later in the pregnancy. No one is just deciding to end their pregnancy so late. These are pregnancies that are wanted. Anti-choicers often lie and make up stuff to paint their opposition as sadistic "baby killers", including the person getting the abortion.

FragrantGrace said:

Makes me glad too.
Yet another one that spends so much time in a religious forum and yet demonstrates ZERO knowledge of the faith itself.

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I do know this-- I know more about your bible than you demonstrate.

I'm beginning to think you are a POE.

FragrantGrace said:

You don't know much about Sharia.
And the extremists in any religion make unfortunately the entire practice look bad and by their example.



Agreed. It is her conscience. Personally, I am against later term, third trimester, abortion. I think a woman who wants to abort in the late third trimester should be put under, her baby delivered, and her clinic or hospital intake form contained language that insured her parental rights were fully terminated the moment she asked for her full term baby to be killed in utero.
Then when she wakes up, no baby. Just like she wanted.

Operation Rescue is the hard right hyper extreme nutter bunch. Not pro-life in the least. They're domestic terrorists.

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Late term abortions are only done for extreme medical emergencies where the life of the mother is at risk. They're not done on a whim, at that stage of pregnancy. Unfortunately, they are necessary in some cases.

FragrantGrace said:

Trump is far more Christian than you.
God knows his own. Atheists have nothing to say because they are fools, according to scripture. And God does not know them.

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I can't believe that someone could actually type that with a straight face.

FragrantGrace said:

First you said you read it. Then you said you only read a small portion. Then you proved in your remarks you didn't actually read any of it.
There was therefore nothing to respond to. Because not reading the full article , you didn't know what you were talking about.

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I made a point about an error that was presented in your article. I see why you don't care to address it.

And as I already said twice now, I read the entire article. It wasn't very long. I was being hyperbolic when I said I hadn't read the rest, to make a point.

Care to address my point yet, or do you want to continue with this silly game instead?