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Jesus Contradictions

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
I'm agnostic, so of course I'm still open minded. But the level of evidence necessary to convince me that the claims of Christianity are true is quite high. It is not enough to "resolve" the contradictions in the bible (although I believe they are unresolvable). If theoretically they were resolved, Christianity could still be false. We would need clear, unambiguous evidence to justify a belief.

Thanks for your response.

I don't and won't challenge your agnosticism nor your insistence on "clear, unambiguous evidence to justify a belief" "that the claims of Christianity are true."
  • As you wrote: "It is not enough to 'resolve' the contradictions in the bible'."
  • As you wrote: "If theoretically they were resolved, Christianity could still be false."
  • And, as you wrote: "We would need clear, unambiguous evidence to justify a belief."
Based on what you've told me, it is obvious that no Christian has anything to gain by continuing to discuss your selection of contradictions. You're having fun rattling Christian dogs' chains. :)

Take care and have your fun.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
I think that's a lot of rationalizing to try to make the verses say something other than what they actually say. In reality they are contradictory.
You're not even trying to understand. Apparently, in your mind the people who wrote the Bible are idiots; because these would be really obvious contradictions. So you read what they say as if you're reading the ramblings of mad men or idiots. What if you're wrong about that assumption?
 
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Unguru

I am a Sikh nice to meet you
That's the problem with being a Fundamentalist. You really and honestly don't see any contradictions although there are essentially tons to be found in the Bible unless something happens enough for you wake up and smell the coffee one day.

What? I thought Zen Buddhists LOVED contradictions, it's literally a core part of your philosophy. :eek:
 
Uh, you realize that the "people who wrote the Bible" didn't all sit down together and write it, correct?

How indeed could the author of Matthew 5 have known what the author of *checks notes* Matthew 6 would write?

Matthew 5:16: "In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven."
Matthew 6:1: "Take care not to do your good deeds publicly or before men, in order to be seen by them; otherwise you will have no reward with and from your Father who is in heaven."

Likewise, the authors of John 5 and John 8, how ever could they have known what the other would say?

John 8:14: "If I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid."
John 5:31: "If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid."

The bible is a compilation of a bunch of religious writings, and most of the authors never knew each other, nor even knew what other books would end up in the bible.

And when these books were compiled, should we deduce that:

a) the contradictions contained within them were devastating to the faith of the compilers
b) the compilers made no attempt to remove or avoid contradictions because they didn't really find them problematic
 

Spartan

Well-Known Member
That's the problem with being a Fundamentalist. You really and honestly don't see any contradictions although there are essentially tons to be found in the Bible unless something happens enough for you wake up and smell the coffee one day.

Beware of skeptics who haven't done their homework.

The Resurrection is confirmed in all four Gospels and various epistles. Show me your best ONE contradiction (just 1, your best ONE) that falsifies the resurrection?
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
Beware of skeptics who haven't done their homework.

The Resurrection is confirmed in all four Gospels and various epistles. Show me your best ONE contradiction (just 1, your best ONE) that falsifies the resurrection?

I don't believe the resurrection occurred, HOWEVER, a contradiction in the bible would not disprove the resurrection. Similarly, non-contradictory accounts of the resurrection would not prove the resurrection. It either occurred or it did not, and whether the accounts of it are contradictory or not make no difference. However, I would like to ask you a question: IF the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus were real events, why was the date of their occurrence never written down? We know the exact birth and death date of Mark Antony, the exact death date of Cleopatra, the exact date of Julius Caesar's assasination, etc. So for other historical figures alive in Jesus' era, we have actual documentation of WHEN major events in their life occurred. However, Easter, the alleged date of Jesus' resurrection, is unknown. It is simply the date of the first Sunday after the first full moon occurring on or after the spring equinox. So, if Jesus' death and resurrection were the most important events in the history of mankind, why would we need to calculate them with the moon, when the dates of events of less important historical figures' lives are already well-known and recorded? This is a reason to strongly suspected that the resurrection is a fictional story.
 

Spartan

Well-Known Member
I don't believe the resurrection occurred, HOWEVER, a contradiction in the bible would not disprove the resurrection. Similarly, non-contradictory accounts of the resurrection would not prove the resurrection. It either occurred or it did not, and whether the accounts of it are contradictory or not make no difference. However, I would like to ask you a question: IF the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus were real events, why was the date of their occurrence never written down? We know the exact birth and death date of Mark Antony, the exact death date of Cleopatra, the exact date of Julius Caesar's assasination, etc. So for other historical figures alive in Jesus' era, we have actual documentation of WHEN major events in their life occurred. However, Easter, the alleged date of Jesus' resurrection, is unknown. It is simply the date of the first Sunday after the first full moon occurring on or after the spring equinox. So, if Jesus' death and resurrection were the most important events in the history of mankind, why would we need to calculate them with the moon, when the dates of events of less important historical figures' lives are already well-known and recorded? This is a reason to strongly suspected that the resurrection is a fictional story.

Those notables you mentioned were famous. Jesus was - in the eyes of the Romans and the Jewish leaders - just a criminal. That's why there's not more info on the date of his crucifixion or resurrection. But there is a way to discern a date for the resurrection. It would be one week after Jesus rode into Jerusalem as the Messiah. And that date - per the prophecy in Daniel chapter 9 - was April 6, 32 AD. So the resurrection would be 7 days later, or April 13, 32 AD. Just Google Jesus April 6, 32 AD.

Here's one article / link: The Unexpected King: Palm Sunday Surprise: – Chuck Missler – Koinonia House

Cheers!
 

Spartan

Well-Known Member
This is a reason to strongly suspected that the resurrection is a fictional story.

In addition to my previous post # 29, there are logical reasons to believe in the resurrection. There are 12 historical facts that a majority of scholars believe (including some skeptics) concerning that situation.

1. Jesus died by crucifixion.
2. He was buried.
3. His death caused the disciples to despair and lose hope.
4. The tomb was empty (the most contested).
5. The disciples had experiences which they believed were literal appearances of the risen Jesus (the most important proof).
6. The disciples were transformed from doubters to bold proclaimers.
7. The resurrection was the central message.
8. They preached the message of Jesus’ resurrection in Jerusalem.
9. The Church was born and grew.
10. Orthodox Jews who believed in Christ made Sunday their primary day of worship.
11. James was converted to the faith when he saw the resurrected Jesus (James was a family skeptic).
12. Paul was converted to the faith (Paul was an outsider skeptic).

To make a long story short, the resurrection is Occam's Razor - it is the most logical and best explanation for those facts. Here's the article: 12 Historical Facts - Gary Habermas

Of course, folks should do their homework to see that Jesus was a very historical person. Over 40 individuals wrote about him within 150 years of his life. Here's some recommended reading:

"The Historical Jesus," by scholar Dr. Gary Habermas;
"New Evidence that Demands a Verdict," by former skeptic Josh McDowell;
"The Case for Christ," by Lee Strobel," and
"The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus," by Dr. Gary Habermas.
 

OtherSheep

<--@ Titangel
John 8:14: "If I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid."
John 5:31: "If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid."

John 7:7: "The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that what it does is evil."
John 15:19: "If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you."

John 15:12: "My command is this: love each other as I have loved you."
Luke 14:26: "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple."

John 14:27: "Peace I leave with you. My peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid."
Matthew 10:34: "Think not that I come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

Matthew 10:5: "These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel."
Matthew 28:19: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations."

Matthew 5:16: "In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven."
Matthew 6:1: "Take care not to do your good deeds publicly or before men, in order to be seen by them; otherwise you will have no reward with and from your Father who is in heaven."

(1) Context
(2) Timing
(3) Audience
 

1213

Well-Known Member
I just quoted verses that are contradictory, and you (apparently) couldn't explain how to reconcile the verses.

The solution is that you don’t cherry-pick, but read the whole Bible. The problems vanish, when you don’t skip the parts that could help you to understand it correctly.
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
I think that's a lot of rationalizing to try to make the verses say something other than what they actually say. In reality they are contradictory.

No, average humans don't usually distinguish perspectives. Bible was written with multiple perspective verses, as a result of a high intelligence standing behind.

Who built the Statue of Liberty?

The French, the American, the workers, the architect, they can all be correct as a matter of perspective. The low intelligent may ask so is it the French or the workers built it.

John 8:14: "If I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid."
John 5:31: "If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid."

John 8:14 is about that in Jewish custom, Jesus as a human his self testimony can't be considered valid. That's why Jesus said he has John the Baptist as His witness.
John 5:31 on the other is not from a human's perspective. Jesus declares that even in the absence of other humans as his witnesses as demanded by Jewish custom, Jesus has God the father as His witness.

John 8:18 (NIV2011)
I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me.”
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Let's look at each of Hubert's difficulties.

John 8:14 and John 5:31.
In John 5:31 Jesus says, 'IF I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true'. But in v.30 he says 'as I hear, I judge'; therefore, Jesus does not bear witness of himself. This is confirmed in John 8:16 where Jesus says, 'And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.'

Conclusion: No contradiction exists. Jesus does not bear witness of himself; the Father is always witnessing with him.

John 7:7 and John 15:19
In John 7:7 Jesus says, 'The world cannot hate you' Why? Because, as it says in John 15:19, the world loves its own. But, adds Jesus, 'because ye are not of the world' 'the world hateth you'.

Conclusion: No contradiction exists. Being hated by the world depends on whether you are 'of the world' or 'in Christ'. You are only hated by the world if you are in Christ.

John 15:12 and Luke 14:26
These passages are best explained by a parallel passage in Matthew 10:34-39. Here it says, 'Think not that I am come to bring peace on earth: I came not to sent peace, but a sword.' He goes on to add, 'He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me:'

Conclusion: No contradiction exists. Scripture calls on us to turn from (hate) the world and embrace Christ. If we cannot put Christ before family then we are not worthy of him.

John 14:27 and Matthew 10:34
The peace that Christ gives, to the hearts of men, is not the peace that the world gives. Outwardly, Christ does not bring peace, but division.

Conclusion: No contradiction exists. A distinction should be drawn between inward and outward peace. The peace of Christ is a matter of the heart, known only to those who abide in him.

Matthew 10:5 and Matthew 28:19
In Matt. 10:5 Jesus is giving instructions to the twelve to go and preach 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand'. This is before the crucifixion and resurrection.
In Matt. 28:19 Jesus is instructing the eleven (minus Judas) to go in the power of the Holy Spirit 'baptizing in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.'

Conclusion: Two entirely different scenarios cannot be seen as a contradiction. The first outreach was intended for the 'house of Israel', the second for 'all nations'. It was right that Christ should appeal to Israel first.

Matthew 5:16 and Matthew 6:1
Matthew 5:16 refers to the light of Christ not being hidden from the world.
Matthew 6:1 refers to almsgiving and not giving alms with the intention of gaining glory from men.

Conclusion: There is no contradiction. It is right to glorify God in Heaven. It is wrong to seek one's own glorification when giving alms or charity.

How can simple truths be so easily turned on their head by an unbelieving world?

I, for one, believe that God's Word deserves careful reading. To me it is like honey, pure and sweet!
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
As far as I am concerned, Jesus himself is a 'contradiction'.
However regarding your contradiction list...I am sure the apologists will find some way to refute them as being incorrect interpretations, or meant something else, or, or, or......

I believe I wouldn't waste my time doing that. I never need a way to do that. God is consistent. So even though one may find reasonable explanations as to why something isn't a contradiction. Why should I bother. It isn't as though the person actually wants to know the truth.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
I believe it is great to see how hard one can work to be blasphemous. It reveals the person is likely to have an untoward spirit.
On RF we occasionally get people wandering through asking us whether they have blasphemed or not, because they don't know. To be sure if we had blasphemed would probably require knowing what we were talking about, but maybe not. It seems a very poorly defined concept and one that appears in the Bible as something we're supposed to already understand. I read the common definitions on the internet, but they don't match up with the usage in Exodus 20:27 where some people blasphemed by being unfaithful. Like many other terms, if we are simple Bible readers its just left for people to guess at the meanings. Is that blasphemy. Is this blasphemy? Is every sin blasphemy?

Is it blasphemy for example when a priest abuses their authority? Is it blasphemy to skip church to watch a football game? Is it blasphemy to say "Oh Gawd" once in a while? Is it blasphemy to criticize the pope or a cardinal? Is it blasphemy to laugh about circumcision? Is it blasphemy to have communion with a pigeon? Is it blasphemy to tell a dirty joke with a nun in it? On and on. Its not well defined.
 

rstrats

Active Member
Spartan,
re: "10. Orthodox Jews who believed in Christ made Sunday their primary day of worship."

What scripture are you using to make that statement?
 
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