Impose the democracy/alliance.

Godobeyer · May 7, 2019

Hello all members of RF

I hope this opinion not taken as an offend

When I see recent history of world,after WWII,I see that some countries tried to copy/paste their regime on other countries by name of democracy,mostly by force,even if it's known that will caused/consequence millions of victimes,like recently in Libya and Syria,and may soon in Venezuela and Iran.

I see no different between imposing religon (by extremists) or imposing democracy,since both are caused casualties. by calculate imposing democracy had more victimes indeed.

Dawnofhope · May 7, 2019

Godobeyer said:
Hello all members of RF

I hope this opinion not taken as an offend

When I see recent history of world,after WWII,I see that some countries tried to copy/paste their regime on other countries by name of democracy,mostly by force,even if it's known that will caused/consequence millions of victimes,like recently in Libya and Syria,and may soon in Venezuela and Iran.

I see no different between imposing religon (by extremists) or imposing democracy,since both are caused casualties. by calculate imposing democracy had more victimes indeed.

Middle Eastern politics is complex and I have to admit my lack of knowledge beyond what is readily available on the internet for us all to read. Obviously the colonial powers had influence pre WW!! and then post WWII we had the so called cold war with allied forces and communist regimes competing for power. Then there were various military coups, the rise of Arab nationalism and the Muslim brotherhood. As a Muslim living in the Middle East what do you see as the best way forward for a country such as your own (Algeria)?

Nakosis · May 7, 2019

Godobeyer said:
Hello all members of RF

I hope this opinion not taken as an offend

When I see recent history of world,after WWII,I see that some countries tried to copy/paste their regime on other countries by name of democracy,mostly by force,even if it's known that will caused/consequence millions of victimes,like recently in Libya and Syria,and may soon in Venezuela and Iran.

I see no different between imposing religon (by extremists) or imposing democracy,since both are caused casualties. by calculate imposing democracy had more victimes indeed.

We presumed, or the US presumed that democracy is the best.

I suppose we figured everyone wants democracy except those folks in power that might otherwise loose said power.

We be imposing freedom, no? What's better than democracy after all? Government by the people for the people and all that.

We see freedom as something that one has to fight for, sometimes even die for. Kind of instilled into us.

dingdao · May 7, 2019

Godobeyer said:
Hello all members of RF

I hope this opinion not taken as an offend

When I see recent history of world,after WWII,I see that some countries tried to copy/paste their regime on other countries by name of democracy,mostly by force,even if it's known that will caused/consequence millions of victimes,like recently in Libya and Syria,and may soon in Venezuela and Iran.

I see no different between imposing religon (by extremists) or imposing democracy,since both are caused casualties. by calculate imposing democracy had more victimes indeed.

It's worse then you imagine. Check out "Oliver Stone's Untold History of the United States" to see just how well regime change has worked out for the US.

siti · May 7, 2019

Godobeyer said:
Hello all members of RF

I hope this opinion not taken as an offend

When I see recent history of world,after WWII,I see that some countries tried to copy/paste their regime on other countries by name of democracy,mostly by force,even if it's known that will caused/consequence millions of victimes,like recently in Libya and Syria,and may soon in Venezuela and Iran.

I see no different between imposing religon (by extremists) or imposing democracy,since both are caused casualties. by calculate imposing democracy had more victimes indeed.

Sadly I think you have a point. The world does still seem to put more weight on enforcing religious and political ideologies than it does on enforcing the sanctity of human life. Any idea how we might go a bout fixing that?

Stevicus · May 7, 2019

Godobeyer said:
Hello all members of RF

I hope this opinion not taken as an offend

When I see recent history of world,after WWII,I see that some countries tried to copy/paste their regime on other countries by name of democracy,mostly by force,even if it's known that will caused/consequence millions of victimes,like recently in Libya and Syria,and may soon in Venezuela and Iran.

I see no different between imposing religon (by extremists) or imposing democracy,since both are caused casualties. by calculate imposing democracy had more victimes indeed.

I don't know if I'd label "democracy" as the culprit here. I think whenever any nation interferes with or intervenes in the internal affairs of another nation, it will produce resentment and casualties. In theory, the U.S. supports the sovereignty and self-determination of independent countries, but as we've seen, our government hasn't been entirely consistent in that regard.

Father Heathen · May 7, 2019

Some cultures are simply not civilized enough to handle choosing their own leadership.

siti · May 7, 2019

Father Heathen said:
Some cultures are simply not civilized enough to handle choosing their own leadership.

You're right! I have a former British colony (or rather 13 of them) and a former European country in mind which have both presented a clear case in point at the ballot box n recent years.

dingdao · May 7, 2019

Father Heathen said:
Some cultures are simply not civilized enough to handle choosing their own leadership.

You have a better idea?

Father Heathen · May 7, 2019

dingdao said:
You have a better idea?

Nope.

Estro Felino · May 7, 2019

Yes...it turns out Libya was going to become the wealthiest country in NA...
we Italians had just stipulated the treaty of Benghazi with Gaddafi, which had made him a strategic partner in our banking and industrial sectors.

So we didn't want Gaddafi to be removed...
we didn't want the US to unleash the civil war in Libya
Gaddafi's downfall caused us enormous economic losses and troubles.

Estro Felino · May 7, 2019

Father Heathen said:
Some cultures are simply not civilized enough to handle choosing their own leadership.

Gaddafi's ruling showed a very enlightened and advanced management of economy

Godobeyer · May 8, 2019

adrian009 said:
Middle Eastern politics is complex and I have to admit my lack of knowledge beyond what is readily available on the internet for us all to read. Obviously the colonial powers had influence pre WW!! and then post WWII we had the so called cold war with allied forces and communist regimes competing for power. Then there were various military coups, the rise of Arab nationalism and the Muslim brotherhood. As a Muslim living in the Middle East what do you see as the best way forward for a country such as your own (Algeria)?

As I see the treatement of West especialy US,is impose the democraty on other,espcially whom ally to Russia.

I am against using religion in politics,for my country we stopped using it for long time 1992.
We are doing a revolution of democracy against ex-regime by our selfs,without any influence from West or Russia or France.since 22 february,by peacefull demonstration almost everyday.
Thanks to God we gain much more democracy and freedom of speech,and removed some of ex-regime,and judging them.

I made a topic about it

New era of Freedom in Algeria

Godobeyer · May 8, 2019

Father Heathen said:
Some cultures are simply not civilized enough to handle choosing their own leadership.

I don't know what you mean exactly you have to choice an answer

1-Era of slavery is ended.

2-Is not evil causing millions of victimes to change their leadership ,to become a follower/ally or duplicate regime?

Godobeyer · May 8, 2019

Stevicus said:
I don't know if I'd label "democracy" as the culprit here. I think whenever any nation interferes with or intervenes in the internal affairs of another nation, it will produce resentment and casualties. In theory, the U.S. supports the sovereignty and self-determination of independent countries, but as we've seen, our government hasn't been entirely consistent in that regard.

Venezuela is best exemple now.
Also,Sanction of sell oil from Iran,and order Turkey to don't buy S400 from Russia.
Turkey Refuses to Bow to US Sanctions Over S-400 Deal

Godobeyer · May 8, 2019

siti said:
Sadly I think you have a point. The world does still seem to put more weight on enforcing religious and political ideologies than it does on enforcing the sanctity of human life. Any idea how we might go a bout fixing that?

UN had laws,unforunetly in most cases running only over poor and not ally countries to West.

I think one of law ,The is no inside(influence) intervention between countries.also should criminalize impose religion.
when it's become an international crime,the world will become in peace.

Augustus · May 8, 2019

Estro Felino said:
Gaddafi's ruling showed a very enlightened and advanced management of economy

Gadaffi was a total **** with few redeeming qualities. Unfortunately, simply removing a total **** from power with no real idea about what will replace him is usually much worse than the total **** remaining in power.

Augustus · May 8, 2019

Stevicus said:
I don't know if I'd label "democracy" as the culprit here. I think whenever any nation interferes with or intervenes in the internal affairs of another nation, it will produce resentment and casualties. In theory, the U.S. supports the sovereignty and self-determination of independent countries, but as we've seen, our government hasn't been entirely consistent in that regard.

It's not democracy that is the problem, but the idea that all you need for a functioning democracy is a popular vote. Western liberal democracy developed over centuries, was supported by the development of specific institutions (independent judiciary, free press, etc.) and a specific cultural context. Instituting a popular vote in a country with none of these things, and specific cultural dimensions that work against it (tribal loyalties, nepotism etc.) will, at very best, result in an illiberal democracy and often open conflict.

"More democracy" often = more violence, and far less social harmony and this has been demonstrated time and time again.

Too many people still believe in the idea that the world is inevitably progressing towards a universal, harmonious society of liberal democratic nation states. This is just a conceit by people who aren't smart enough to understand that their own views are not the product of impartial reason, but centuries of cultural conditioning that created the societies they were born into.

Estro Felino · May 8, 2019

Augustus said:
Gadaffi was a total **** with few redeeming qualities.

Libya is an ex Italian colony whose economic success is partly due to what Italians created in the 20th century.

Augustus said:
Unfortunately, simply removing a total **** from power with no real idea about what will replace him is usually much worse than the total **** remaining in power.

That 's exactly what I meant.

siti · May 8, 2019

Godobeyer said:
UN had laws,unforunetly in most cases running only over poor and not ally countries to West.

I think one of law ,The is no inside(influence) intervention between countries.also should criminalize impose religion.
when it's become an international crime,the world will become in peace.

I see what you mean, but I doubt "international law" can solve the problem. UN Conventions are violated with impunity when the most powerful nations deem it:

(a) in their national interests to permit the violations to go unchecked OR
(b) not sufficiently important to their interests for them to support intervention OR
(c) too costly for them to intervene

A law that successfully prevented outside intervention altogether could be disastrous at present - not for the powerful nations of the west, but for the poorest people of the world.

I don't have any answer except to hope for a day when the sanctity of human life is enshrined as the number one principle in the laws of every nation - and the hearts of every human. I'm not holding my breath!

Impose the democracy/alliance.

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