You're becoming me....but with a less sunny disposition.
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Is the American Dream an impressive mountain to climb or a tiny cave to hide it?
- Thread starter whirlingmerc
- Start date
Wu Wei
ursus senum severiorum and ex-Bisy Backson
Well I would most definitely agree to the less sunny disposition bits....but them I'm a ursus senum severiorum after all.....it is to be expected
Nimos
Well-Known Member
Well that is definitely a good question
And most likely not something I can answer in great details as it simply involve to many elements, but also to many that Im ignorant of.I do think as a basic idea of how to do it, that the Venus project have a lot of good ideas for a future design of society, so getting a basis understanding of what is needed to work towards is best explained in their presentation. That doesn't mean that I agree with everything they are saying. But I do think that eventually in the future that human society will function close to what is visioned by them.
But thriving towards equal societies, the first thing is to make people realize that humans are in fact the same despite where we might have been born. And to secure equal possibilities for all regardless of wealth.
Education
The educational system should be based on the Finnish model and should be applied everywhere and expanded on as it seems to be the most effective one today. I will not go into great details about it, but one thing I find appealing in terms of equality, is that there is no private schools. Which means that people which have a lot of resources are forced to invest in the public educational system, which benefits the whole society rather than the elite. In the end this would also increase the intelligence of the average worker, making it easier for businesses to get qualified people.
Health
No more private hospitals everyone is treated equally regardless of how much money they have. Health is important to everyone and money should not decide whether a person should get the best treatment or not. If companies want to offer employees health benefits, they can invest in the public health system.
Economy
This is probably very difficult to explain and even make sense of. And not really sure it would work. But the general idea would be to have 2 types of currency. One is basic currency and is given for free to everyone each month, this allows people to buy varies basic stuff that is needed like certain groceries etc. And everyone gets the same amount. The other type of currency is lets call it luxury money and is obtained through working, which would work pretty much as regular money do today and allow you to buy alcohol and other types of non essential items, like cars, bigger houses etc.
Everyone is given a basic place to live despite how much money they have and they would not have to pay rent, the size of the house fits what is considered humane. So a single person would not have access to 4 room apartments. But could buy them with the luxury money should they want to, just as they can now.
Banks should be closed and lending money as it is done now made illegal.
Obviously I have no clue if it would work or not, ill admit that. But the overall vision should be to always work towards lifting the poorest in a society to higher standards. So it wouldn't be a completely equal society, but at least much more than it is now.
So it would be societies responsibility and ultimately how we would measure the succes of it, on how well we are at taking care and create equal possibilities for people, with for instant lower IQ, disabilities that might cause them some disadvantages compared to others.
This would not really impact on your freedom you could buy as many boats as you wanted to, as you would still have benefits over those less "blessed". But your success doesn't have to come at the cost of others life quality.
They might have, but a lot of factors can play in on whether a person succeed in life or not. Some of them might be traumatized do to poor families, abuse, health conditions or other things that might not be their own fault. No one, should enjoy living a place where people are homeless, if there is no need for it. There is more than enough resources available in the world to secure a high standard of living for all people if we wanted to. For instant to take an example of some of my own friends and how they "spend" there money.
1. First one live in america and have 5 cars and 2 houses.
2. Other one live in Denmark and have 4 cars and a massive house and a boat, and probably earn about 20-25.000 dollars a month, not taking into account all the benefits that comes with it as well, when you have a job like that. That no other regular job would grant you, like a nurse or school teacher, which actually do something that is extremely important. He works in IT for banks or something, I hardly know what it is he does and even he when we speak about it, doesn't really care, he would rather be with his children.
To me that is purely insane and just an expression of greed and not thinking, of how it is reasonable to live and they both do actually agree. But in contrast to how some people have to live, I would say that shows the complete failure of how things are done today, as there are simply no need for it.
Obviously if people want to live a certain way, they should be allowed. so living on the street, with at least enough money to buy food etc. is perfectly fine. They shouldn't be forced to change if they don't want to. But I think its rare cases, where people choose this way of living had they been raised in functional families or had not experience whatever they might have.
Well Im from Denmark, which is both considered to be highly socialistic and atheistic in our way of doing things, just as the rest of the Nordic countries are. And it is true we have pretty high taxes here, yet in terms of living quality we are considered to do quite well compared to other countries. And people can easily buy stuff they want here. Not saying that our way of doing things are perfect. But its definitely not bad, I think.
Its not about an Utopian, its about doing things better as it have always been done and improving the living standard of humans and nature should be the vision and goal of what we ought to do. Not simply how many material goods one can acquire.
My view on how to do it, wouldn't change that. The only difference is that you doing this doesn't have to come at the cost of others, when there is no need for it.
This is obviously not very specific ideas of how exactly to do it, but I think what is important is not so much how to do it in details, at least not at first. But to realize that its actually possible to not have to live in a world where some people have to suffer for the benefit of others.
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shmogie
Well-Known Member
Really ? Not hardly. Trump is two people, a big mouth who pisses everyone off at some point in time.
On the other hand, the actions of his Administration have been good for America.
Most of our troops in Syria are home, after playing a huge part in the total destruction of the ISIS caliphate.
The economy is booming, after obama left it in tatters.
The cheating Europeans who were´nt coming close to meeting their commitments to NATO, being happy to let America carry the load are now paying their paltry 2% of GDP, while the US pays 4-5 %
Justices and judges throughout the legal system have been appointed who are strict constructionists, they don´t play social engineering by bending the Constitution like a pretzel for their own goals.
The absolutely bizarre American immigration laws ( thank you liberal judges and stupid Congress) where supporting illegal immigrants costs billions a year, are finally being shown for what they are, and strengthening our borders is now a priority.
Venezuela, a failed communist state and itś dictator of the worst kind is being pressured very strongly to allow the duly elected President to take office. the Cubans and Russians, propping up the dictator are on notice. I am sure, as the people starve to death, Trump will send troops to give the people back their country, as well as massive aid.
The Iranians have not once harassed an American warship after Trumps election, when it was almost a daily thing under Obama, why ? Trump told them if they try it, their ships were going to the bottom.
Trump got a new trade deal with Canada and Mexico, which is much more advantages to America,
I could go on, but the point is, your information is simply too incomplete to make a real judgement. You know about the clown side of him daily, but know little about what his administration is accomplishing.
Audie
Veteran Member
Observe what becomes of those who need not the
call to cultivate a brighter disposition And a shave!!
(hint to the hirsuite ursine!!)
The thread has diverged, surprise, surprise, from the OP and the linked document which was about the motivating power of the lower motivation of fear. Fear appears to be riding "tall in the saddle" based on almost all of the news media, no matter what their bias or lack thereof. Fear and anger drive eyeballs to media advertising outlets.
I remember FDR's "four freedoms":
I remember FDR's "four freedoms":
- freedom of speech and expression,
- freedom to worship God in his own way (of course now includes freedom to not believe in God)
- freedom from want
- freedom from fear
Kangaroo Feathers
Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
Sounds like an excuse not to worry about inequality.
You are viewing that man with rose coloured spectacles. Most of us in the UK think the man is a clown, albeit a dangerous one. If he was taking part in a drama featuring a US president his performance would be deemed less than credible.
Audie
Veteran Member
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Congratulations. You're an electric guitarist, correct? Is any of your music on the Internet for others to link to?
Good point. I've never been clear on just what is meant by that phrase. Is it coming to America so that one can go from being stuck in a low class or caste in the old country to a land of milk and honey where there is room for upward social mobility and equality under the law?
Or is it the ability to support a family, a mortgage, a car payment, and take a two-week vacation every year on a single, blue collar wage?
Or is it the chance to make it big and become extremely wealthy?
Or maybe something else. @BSM1 's American dream seems to be to play in a rock and blues band
I think that what is usually called for is equal opportunity, not equal lives. How people avail themselves of the opportunities that present themselves in the course of a lifetime will vary, of course, as will the quality of the life that those choices bring.
BSM1
What? Me worry?
Electric and acoustic. Yes, we have a website: www.katdenmusic.com. The little loud blonde is the real talent in the band (and also my wife); I'm mostly the eye-candy (I know, I know, it's a dirty job but someone has to do it; trouble is, I have to practice so much harder now). Thanks for your interest.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
I think the Americam dream has changed over the years. In the past people wanted to work hard and earn the things they wanted. Now most people want to sit back and do nothing and let the government furnish free housing and food and health care, etc.
shmogie
Well-Known Member
Correct, equal opportunity for every citizen.
Audie
Veteran Member
shmogie
Well-Known Member
You think ? Are you talking about inequality in height, intellect, ability to throw a javelin, what ?
I suspect you are talking about financial figures and income.
How many people do you believe are in poverty after making all their life choices correctly ? Many.
How many people do you think are in poverty because they exercised very poor life choices, many as well.
So, the latter, are they someone I should worry about ?
Is it societies responsibility to make folk like this income equal when their condition is solely their own fault ?
In my career I came across thugs with rap sheets a mile long. Every one failed to graduate from high school.
They had a free education, and blew it off. So, I don´t care about them, except to wish every one was in jail, few will ever change.
Society is rife with people who are poor and disadvantaged by choice, not because of some inherent inequality working on them. Resources that the truly disadvantaged need to improve their lives should not be wasted on those who are quite happy where their lives are.
Nice. You have a very clean sound.
That must be you in the website photo. It looks like you're playing an Ovation acoustic-electric.
And your wife has a nice voice.
You and I have discussed music before. Like you, I'm also a long-time electric guitarist (took it up with a vengeance in 1972), who also performed with his wife in assorted restaurants and coffee houses for about a decade ending about 2004, she on bass, with both of us singing.
We mostly covered the Grateful Dead, but did a lot of Eric Clapton, Allman Brothers, Pink Floyd, and Fleetwood Mac. I also have an Ovation (1986), but a blond one in the style with a single central sound hole, which sits on a wall bracket next to my mid-eighties American Fender Stratocaster.
This is the two of us (and an electronic drum machine) performing a live version of the Grateful Dead's Lazy River Road, a beautiful ballad with excellent lyrics. I'd like your feedback on our rendition, including the improvised guitar solo, which as you no doubt know, is required in a jam band setting. Guitarring was my American dream as well.
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shmogie
Well-Known Member
I am as far from being a musician as you can be, the spoons are about it. Nevertheless, I am a rabid lover of the music from my youth, classic rock. This is good ! for what my opinion is worth.
BSM1
What? Me worry?
Very nice. What guitar are you playing? And yes, that's my Ovation in the vids. However, a couple of months ago I came across a killer deal on a Micheal Kelly grand and it's now my go to acoustic. Of course, I've got a couple of Strats I use for electric (one I bought at Goodwill, go figure). Never was much of a Dead fan even back in the day, but since I've been "gigging" I've developed a respect for their musicianship. We do attempt "Sugaree", "Ripple", and "I Know You Rider".
Yes, she's the reason we started doing this in the first place. She does blues and old rock mostly (actually she could do any genre), but my voice is purely Americana (if I try to sing blues then she and our bass player slaps me on the back of the head).
I went back and listened to your post again. To do Grateful Dead, like Hendrix, takes a special voice to really pull it off. I think you did it well.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I agree everyone should have access to health care, even though I have had good health care my entire working life, for 42 years, since I have always worked for the government.
Yes, Obama was a good president because of his character. Trump might have affected some positive changes such as in the economy. I do not keep up on politics much so I don’t know how much credit I can give to Trump for the economy.