Fascinating!

Revoltingest said:

Fixed it.

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I think it depends on how you define "smart".

It is Ranger Smith who owes a picnic basket.

It is Ranger Smith whom is owed a picnic basket.

It is Deeje whom sees nature in terms of a Creator.

It is most of the rest of us who see nature in terms of laws, logic, chance, or scientific modelling.

But no matter the words I am smarter than the average picanic basket.

cladking said:

I think it depends on how you define "smart".

It is Ranger Smith who owes a picnic basket.

It is Ranger Smith whom is owed a picnic basket.

It is Deeje whom who sees nature in terms of a Creator.

It is most of the rest of us who see nature in terms of laws, logic, chance, or scientific modelling.

But no matter the words I am smarter than the average picanic basket.

Click to expand...

Fixed!

@Polymath257 there is no point in even rehashing these things.....you have your 'beliefs' and I have mine....you have convinced yourself that God doesn't exist and there is nothing that will convince you otherwise except a personal encounter. You assume that it will never happen......but you don't really know for sure, do you?

When I see atheists go to such great lengths to rule out God, I often wonder who they are trying to convince? What does it matter if there are people who don't believe in science the way you do? Why is it seen as such a threat? The psychology is fascinating to me.

The Bible speaks about having "eyes of faith". We "believers" have a special kind of vision that materialists just do not possess. It's the difference between a 'spiritual person and a physical person'....explained this way by the apostle Paul...
"These things we also speak, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the spirit, as we explain spiritual matters with spiritual words.
14 But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually. 15 However, the spiritual man examines all things, but he himself is not examined by any man." (1 Corinthians 2:113-15)

So exchanges like this only benefit to those who are searching for their own 'truth'. These ones will also fall into one of these two categories....we are either a "spiritual" person, or we are a "physical" person.....and never the twain shall meet, apparently. You will never convince me and I will never convince you.....

Deeje said:

@Polymath257 there is no point in even rehashing these things.....you have your 'beliefs' and I have mine....you have convinced yourself that God doesn't exist and there is nothing that will convince you otherwise except a personal encounter. You assume that it will never happen......but you don't really know for sure, do you?

When I see atheists go to such great lengths to rule out God, I often wonder who they are trying to convince? What does it matter if there are people who don't believe in science the way you do? Why is it seen as such a threat? The psychology is fascinating to me.

The Bible speaks about having "eyes of faith". We "believers" have a special kind of vision that materialists just do not possess. It's the difference between a 'spiritual person and a physical person'....explained this way by the apostle Paul...
"These things we also speak, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the spirit, as we explain spiritual matters with spiritual words.
14 But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually. 15 However, the spiritual man examines all things, but he himself is not examined by any man." (1 Corinthians 2:113-15)

So exchanges like this only benefit to those who are searching for their own 'truth'. These ones will also fall into one of these two categories....we are either a "spiritual" person, or we are a "physical" person.....and never the twain shall meet, apparently. You will never convince me and I will never convince you.....

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Perhaps the only possible answers when so little is known about the material universe are the spiritual answers. Perhaps seekers of spiritual truth need each find their own ways unless there is one that already suits them.

Answers have never come easy. At least correct answers never come easy. Whatever the truth is it seems unlikely there will ever be much agreement about it.

Polymath257 said:

It [a Deity] is an extra hypothesis with no real explanatory power.

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Even Einstein didn't reach this far; he concluded a "superior reasoning power" did 'explain' it....

"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals **Himself** in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds. That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a **superior reasoning power**, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God."

--- Excerpt from (Barnett, L.,) "The Universe and Dr. Einstein", Victor Gallancz Ltd, London, UK, p. 95, 1953.
(Capitalization of 'Himself' and 'God' were in the book. Italics and double asterisks are mine, to highlight.)

cladking said:

Perhaps the only possible answers when so little is known about the material universe are the spiritual answers. Perhaps seekers of spiritual truth need each find their own ways unless there is one that already suits them.

Click to expand...

According to the Bible, there are only two roads that people can choose....the right one and the wrong one. (Matthew 7:13-14) Our choices are based on what we personally seek, based on what those choices say about us as individuals. The Bible says that there are spiritual people and physical people in the world.....but even the spiritual people can be steered in the wrong direction. We are given the freedom to make choices about these things for ourselves; that way we can all be caught in the act of being ourselves.

As I see it, there are two 'people' in every individual...the one we think we are....and the one the Creator sees. His view of us includes our desires and motivations, which are sometimes not acknowledged consciously by us. That means that the easiest person on this planet to fool....is ourselves.

If Jesus comes to judge the world, (as he says he will) there is going to be an awkward moment when even those who imagine that they are "Christians" will be rejected on the grounds that they were actually breaking God's laws....they seem unaware of how. (Matthew 7:21-23)

Answers have never come easy. At least correct answers never come easy. Whatever the truth is it seems unlikely there will ever be much agreement about it.

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It's funny you should say that.....when I was conducting my own search, I too had difficulty finding answers to my many questions.....but something happened one day that changed my life.....I answered a knock at my door.

In my search for answers I asked all the questions that had hung around in my mind, all my life....and the answers were presented to me straight from the Bible. It resonated with me straight away. I was so excited to finally have those questions put to bed. I took two solid years of study to make sure that what I was being taught was scriptually based.

The one thing that I came to appreciate in all of that, is that it isn't just us searching for God, but he is also searching for us.

The apostle John recorded Jesus' words....(John 6)

"44 No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him.....
and in verse 65, he says again...."“This is why I have said to you, no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

So the answers to our questions, (if we have a spiritual need that we acknowledge,) are waiting for us if we listen to the right people....have the right response, and allow God to direct our thoughts.

The "physical man" demands evidence for the existence of this Creator but they will never get it until the end. The evidence is right under their noses but it is not acknowledged. It will never be acknowledged because the spiritual man is the only one "drawn" by God and he needs no more "evidence" than what is in plain sight.

This is why it is a futile exercise trying to convince a physical man of spiritual things and vice versa. The divide is deliberate. It gives God a basis for judgment without coercion. We choose the road.....we choose the destination.

Deeje said:

@Polymath257 there is no point in even rehashing these things.....you have your 'beliefs' and I have mine....you have convinced yourself that God doesn't exist and there is nothing that will convince you otherwise except a personal encounter. You assume that it will never happen......but you don't really know for sure, do you?

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I can think of any number of things that would convince me that the universe was created by an intelligence. A 'personal encounter' is probably the *least* likely thing to do so, though. I'd want objective evidence and not subjective experience.

When I see atheists go to such great lengths to rule out God, I often wonder who they are trying to convince? What does it matter if there are people who don't believe in science the way you do? Why is it seen as such a threat? The psychology is fascinating to me.

Click to expand...

And I see it, of course, from the opposite side. I see theists going through all sorts of contortions do keep believing. And yes, I find that psychology fascinating.

The reason it matters is the schools. Creationists have been trying to get their crap into the public schools for decades. Fortunately, they have failed, but not through lack of trying. There is also a horrible effect in our system where everyone can vote. Having science-deniers as a major part of the population is, frankly scary from that point of view.

The Bible speaks about having "eyes of faith". We "believers" have a special kind of vision that materialists just do not possess. It's the difference between a 'spiritual person and a physical person'....explained this way by the apostle Paul...
"These things we also speak, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the spirit, as we explain spiritual matters with spiritual words.
14 But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually. 15 However, the spiritual man examines all things, but he himself is not examined by any man." (1 Corinthians 2:113-15)

So exchanges like this only benefit to those who are searching for their own 'truth'. These ones will also fall into one of these two categories....we are either a "spiritual" person, or we are a "physical" person.....and never the twain shall meet, apparently. You will never convince me and I will never convince you.....

Click to expand...

Well, it is *possible* that people who are sp'ritual' have another sense that helps with this. And, if I am like the color blind person, how would I determine if what you see is real or not? And the answer is pretty easy: Do those who claim to see spiritually report seeing the same thing? If what they see actually is real, they should.

But, as I'm sure you know, the reality is the opposite. It often seems that no two 'spiritual' people can agree on *anything*. That is why we have so many different 'spiritual paths', after all. And that, for me, is conclusive evidence that there isn't another sense special to the 'spiritual', but rather another type of self-delusion.

Hockeycowboy said:

Even Einstein didn't reach this far; he concluded a "superior reasoning power" did 'explain' it....

"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals **Himself** in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds. That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a **superior reasoning power**, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God."

--- Excerpt from (Barnett, L.,) "The Universe and Dr. Einstein", Victor Gallancz Ltd, London, UK, p. 95, 1953.
(Capitalization of 'Himself' and 'God' were in the book. Italics and double asterisks are mine, to highlight.)

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And Einstein didn't believe in a personal deity. He was pretty clear that his notion of 'God' was that of Spinoza and equivalent to the laws of the universe.

And, of course, Einstein was wrong when he claimed that 'God does not play dice'.

And another 4 pages of evidence why having a discussion about science with a JW is pointless.

Polymath257 said:

The reason it matters is the schools. Creationists have been trying to get their crap into the public schools for decades. Fortunately, they have failed, but not through lack of trying. There is also a horrible effect in our system where everyone can vote. Having science-deniers as a major part of the population is, frankly scary from that point of view.

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I hope you understand that JW's have no need to bring religion into schools. We educate our children at home and at our Christian meetings. We are not science deniers, because what science can prove is marvellous. It's what science can't prove and promotes as facts that we have disagreement with.

Schools can teach evolution to our children but we will equip them with the knowledge that science cannot teach them. We can explain the wonderful designs in nature and help them appreciate that what science believes about evolution is based on nothing but supposition. Evolution on the scale suggested is a belief, not a proven fact.

Unlike Americans, Australians don't have much in the way of religious beliefs. We are quite a secular nation. So science doesn't have much opposition here. Perhaps you live in the wrong country?

Polymath257 said:

Well, it is *possible* that people who are sp'ritual' have another sense that helps with this. And, if I am like the color blind person, how would I determine if what you see is real or not? And the answer is pretty easy: Do those who claim to see spiritually report seeing the same thing? If what they see actually is real, they should.

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Just having spirituality is not what really matters, because that can be exploited by the devil in our belief system. His main aim is to get people on the wrong road.

I think you are misunderstanding what I mean about spiritual vision...."eyes of faith" can perceive things that a non-spiritual person cannot. We are alien to those who evaluate everything on a physical level. We don't speak the same language.

But like a person born color blind, someone can provide them with special glasses, then they can see what others see. It happens sometimes that a pair of 'spiritual' glasses can be given to some people....giving them spiritual vision that wasn't there before. I have seen it happen.

Polymath257 said:

But, as I'm sure you know, the reality is the opposite. It often seems that no two 'spiritual' people can agree on *anything*. That is why we have so many different 'spiritual paths', after all. And that, for me, is conclusive evidence that there isn't another sense special to the 'spiritual', but rather another type of self-delusion.

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Again that is not surprising to those who know the Bible.
There is only one road to life.....some paths are used as a decoy, created by God's enemy to lure the Biblically uneducated. Again this will be "foolishness" to a physical man, but it explains why there are so many paths to choose from. All roads do not lead to Rome. Without God guiding us in the process, people end up going in the opposite direction.

I don't expect you to appreciate any of this, but this is what I believe.

Deeje said:

I hope you understand that JW's have no need to bring religion into schools. We educate our children at home and at our Christian meetings. We are not science deniers, because what science can prove is marvellous. It's what science can't prove and promotes as facts that we have disagreement with.

Schools can teach evolution to our children but we will equip them with the knowledge that science cannot teach them. We can explain the wonderful designs in nature and help them appreciate that what science believes about evolution is based on nothing but supposition. Evolution on the scale suggested is a belief, not a proven fact.

Unlike Americans, Australians don't have much in the way of religious beliefs. We are quite a secular nation. So science doesn't have much opposition here. Perhaps you live in the wrong country?



Just having spirituality is not what really matters, because that can be exploited by the devil in our belief system. His main aim is to get people on the wrong road.

I think you are misunderstanding what I mean about spiritual vision...."eyes of faith" can perceive things that a non-spiritual person cannot. We are alien to those who evaluate everything on a physical level. We don't speak the same language.

But like a person born color blind, someone can provide them with special glasses, then they can see what others see. It happens sometimes that a pair of 'spiritual' glasses can be given to some people....giving them spiritual vision that wasn't there before. I have seen it happen.



Again that is not surprising to those who know the Bible.
There is only one road to life.....some paths are used as a decoy, created by God's enemy to lure the Biblically uneducated. Again this will be "foolishness" to a physical man, but it explains why there are so many paths to choose from. All roads do not lead to Rome. Without God guiding us in the process, people end up going in the opposite direction.

I don't expect you to appreciate any of this, but this is what I believe.

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Science can prove nothing. Proof is not the standard of science.

Deeje said:

When I see atheists go to such great lengths to rule out God, I often wonder who they are trying to convince? What does it matter if there are people who don't believe in science the way you do? Why is it seen as such a threat? The psychology is fascinating to me.

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And the lengths religionists go to?


I was running late for work, asked Jesus to help me be on time - and then I suddenly found my car keys - Thanks, Jesus!

A water stain on the side of a building sort of looks like some depictions of the 'virgin' Mary - Jesus LIVES!

125 people were killed in a tornado, but 1 person survived - Thanks, Jesus, for letting those 125 people die but MIRACULOUSLY saving this one schlub!

This statue in a church looks like it is weeping blood (which turns out to be iron oxide) - ONLY explicable via JESUS!

My uncle had the cancer, but after years of prayer (and $100,000 plus in chemo) the cancer is in remission - Praise be to the LIVING GOD!!!

Look at these billiard balls suspended from different lengths of string swinging and making a mesmerizing pattern due to different lengths of their pendulum arms... only through JEHOVAH is this even possible!

People citing some or all of the above - 'SEE??? God is REAL!.... Where is your god SCIENCE, losers???'



Yes, the psychology really IS fascinating.

Deeje said:

According to the Bible, there are only two roads that people can choose....the right one and the wrong one.

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Science has greatly advanced since the age of the Bible.
Wolfgang Pali discovered a 3rd road, ie, "not right, & not even wrong"

Deeje said:

When I see atheists go to such great lengths to rule out God, I often wonder who they are trying to.....

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Tis no great length to explain the behavior of pendulums with basic physics.
And this explanation offers insight into how systems behave.
To just say "God did it." is neither interesting nor illuminating.
But to understand system behavior & harmonics is useful...although it
requires some math. I've had to use it when designing things to avoid
harmonic interaction which can cause things to break or perform poorly.
Example....
I once had a customer hire me to fix his airport runway pavement testing
machine. (It applied a cyclic force to the concrete, & measured the
response to determine its condition & of the foundation.) I discovered
that the frequency of the applied force & the natural frequency of the
control system for the hydraulics were too close, causing interaction.
The simple fix was to....hey, I'm not giving up trade secrets!
Let's just say that I altered the control system to avoid conflict.

Deeje said:

@Polymath257 there is no point in even rehashing these things.....you have your 'beliefs' and I have mine....you have convinced yourself that God doesn't exist and there is nothing that will convince you otherwise except a personal encounter.

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Yes we all do. And quite honestly this thread smacks of proselytizing, and trying to win people over to Christian or JW beliefs, and try to disprove science.

When I see atheists go to such great lengths to rule out God, I often wonder who they are trying to convince? What does it matter if there are people who don't believe in science the way you do? Why is it seen as such a threat? The psychology is fascinating to me.

Click to expand...

I might ask the same questions: why it's so important to prove God does exist and is creator and ruler of the universe? Why is it so important to prove science wrong? Whom are you trying to convince? I cannot understand why it's so important to believe that the Earth was created in a literal 6 days, and all creatures created in their current forms.Why is it so difficult and disconcerting if the Bible is metaphor? If it is metaphorical and allegorical that doesn't discount truths that it contains, as do all scriptures.

There are a great many theists who have no problem reconciling science, be it evolution, theoretical physics, paleontology or any other science, wit the existence of God. I myself have no problem with it, and I am certainly no atheist. The Roman Catholic Church has no problem with the model of the Big Bang. Did you know that? Pope John Paul II said it's perfectly fine to study it up to the time it happened, But to probe beyond it, to try to tease out what happened before, where it came from, is venturing into God's territory and shouldn't be pursued.

Hockeycowboy said:

Even Einstein didn't reach this far; he concluded a "superior reasoning power" did 'explain' it....

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"Even Einstein"? Are you stating that you believe that because of his superior intellect he had a better understanding of "god" than others?

He certainly didn't believe in your god or your religion and referred to it as naïve and childlike. So, I don't understand why you would hold him up as someone who believes as you do.


Religious and philosophical views of Albert Einstein - Wikipedia (my emphases)

Deeje said:

If Jesus comes to judge the world, (as he says he will)

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As your founders/leaders have erroneously said for over 100 years.

Deeje said:

When I see atheists go to such great lengths to rule out God,

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What great lengths do you "see atheists go to ... to rule out God"?

I'm an atheist. I didn't go through ay great lengths to rule out God. I ruled out God following two or three sessions at Sunday School. That was enough to convince my 10-year-old self that God and Adam & Eve and Noah were just as real as any characters in my comic books.

Everything I read, saw, heard, experienced in the intervening years just reinforced my conviction. What I didn't know then but came to learn, is the part that childhood indoctrination plays in forming deeply held religious beliefs. Something that I'm sure you can relate to.

tas8831 said:

125 people were killed in a tornado, but 1 person survived - Thanks, Jesus, for letting those 125 people die but MIRACULOUSLY saving this one schlub!

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I love hearing the members of an Oscar or an Emmy or other such prize say "But first and foremost I want to thank Jesus/God for the award". In other words, Jesus/God loves me more than you other nominees.

Ditto touchdown passers, touchdown receivers, field goal kickers, penalty kickers, goalies, center fielders, long ball batters, golfers, buzzer beater hoopsters, and the list goes on, and the list goes on: Jesus/God loves me more than you other guys.

Deeje said:

I hope you understand that JW's have no need to bring religion into schools. We educate our children at home and at our Christian meetings. We are not science deniers, because what science can prove is marvellous. It's what science can't prove and promotes as facts that we have disagreement with.

Schools can teach evolution to our children but we will equip them with the knowledge that science cannot teach them. We can explain the wonderful designs in nature and help them appreciate that what science believes about evolution is based on nothing but supposition. Evolution on the scale suggested is a belief, not a proven fact.

Unlike Americans, Australians don't have much in the way of religious beliefs. We are quite a secular nation. So science doesn't have much opposition here. Perhaps you live in the wrong country?



Just having spirituality is not what really matters, because that can be exploited by the devil in our belief system. His main aim is to get people on the wrong road.

I think you are misunderstanding what I mean about spiritual vision...."eyes of faith" can perceive things that a non-spiritual person cannot. We are alien to those who evaluate everything on a physical level. We don't speak the same language.

But like a person born color blind, someone can provide them with special glasses, then they can see what others see. It happens sometimes that a pair of 'spiritual' glasses can be given to some people....giving them spiritual vision that wasn't there before. I have seen it happen.



Again that is not surprising to those who know the Bible.
There is only one road to life.....some paths are used as a decoy, created by God's enemy to lure the Biblically uneducated. Again this will be "foolishness" to a physical man, but it explains why there are so many paths to choose from. All roads do not lead to Rome. Without God guiding us in the process, people end up going in the opposite direction.

I don't expect you to appreciate any of this, but this is what I believe.

Click to expand...

I certainly agree with "polymath257". If a grown adult wants to believe in Jediism, Jainism, or the flying spaghetti monster, it is none of my business. But to indoctrinate the minds of the most vulnerable and helpless members of our society, with unfalsifiable religious beliefs, is tantamount to mental child abuse. To stifle the child's inquisitive mind with ignorance and superstition, is irresponsible and selfish. If you think that your beliefs are correct, then provide the objective evidence to support them. Of course you can't, so you simply blame it on the stubbornness of those that disagree with you. Since you can't convince any skeptic, realists, or rational thinker, you spread your nonsense to kids that can't rationally or logically defend themselves. What are you afraid of? That they might grow up and choose facts over fantasy? That their facts don't agree with your beliefs? You want our schools to teach our kids that fantasies, superstitions, creationism, and God(s), are real and not beliefs? How much more "dumbing down" of America can we endure? I think it is a sad and preventable tragedy, that kids wind up like these kids, because of their parent's delusions, insecurities, and ignorance.





As a responsible parent, it is my job to protect my children's minds and bodies against my own biases and beliefs. My children must be allowed to become themselves, and not another "mini-me". I want to provide them with the best tools for their survival in society. Creating the seeds for cognitive dissonance in the future, might be in your own best interest, but it is certainly not in your child's best interest. The best tools I can encourage in my own children, is their ability to reason and critically think. Our schools should provide the outlet for improving and nurturing these abilities. I certainly would not expose my children to any unfalsifiable belief system, before they are able to understand the philosophies underlying the tenets. The idea is to allow all children the chance to reach their full potential. I not only know for certain that God(s) do not exist, but that God(s) cannot exist anywhere in our Universe.

If you are teaching your children that Evolution is a supposition or a belief, then you are telling your children lies and half-truths. If you are teaching your children to be skeptical of science, and gullible to the existence of a non-physical reality, a devil, and a God, then you are doing your child an intellectual disservice. Teaching your child that they are sinful in the eyes of God, and should be fearful of His wrath of going to hell, unless they obey His commandments, is just ignorance and child abuse. The rest of your post is just sheer proselytizing and sermonizing. There is no such thing as "eyes of faith", or special glasses for "spiritual vision". You are just another person of faith, that wants to believe in something that cannot exist outside of the mind. At least Atheists will gladly change their lack of belief, if they are presented with any objective falsifiable evidence. But no amount of evidence can change the mind of the truly faithful. Not even God Himself.