Can we try it again?

Kcnorwood · Oct 14, 2006

Ok I understand if someone of you dont wish to get in this debate.
I still would like to know how some of you can be say Christian/Wiccan
Or pagan/Catholics. Im not trying to start a fight but I would like to debate about it.
That is if they dont erase this thread.

First of all right off the bat knowing the 10 commandments number one being Thou shall have to other Gods before me, how did you figure a way around that?

Someone said before that they see God as the God of the grove I believe & the Goddess as his consort. The bible doesnt say anything about him having anyone at his side. Except the Holy Spirit & Jesus.

Considering how the church in general sees people who claim to be Pagan/Wiccan
& What the bible says about us where do you see us fitting in?
Again if you dont feel like getting into this I understand!

Terrywoodenpic · Oct 14, 2006

There is good reason to believe that there is only one God.
That we all think we know that the God we worship is the one true God, muddies the water somewhat.
I support the view, that it is our own weakness of perception, that means we can not see the truth of God in all of our religions.

The Truth of God will always be obscure; we have had many messengers who have told their people What God is, What God wants from us, and how we should worship him. we have been taught how we should live our lives.

Taken separately these teachings all make sense to the people they were brought to.

The word to day is a very different place to even 100 years ago . a word to any peoples today is the same as to all people, because of modern communications.

For our peace of mind and the peace of the world we must start coming together in the sense that we accept each others version of Gods teachings, as true for the people they were spoken to.

Random · Oct 14, 2006

Kcnorwood, this has been done to death on several threads already. But, since you are so insistent, a few points:

1) A pagan is perfectly entitled to believe in Jesus Christ as one of a great lineage of Sun Kings, even an entirely mythological one, and worship him as such. He could be the God of the Grove, a sacrifical Sacred King in the service of the Great Goddess or whatever one wishes to make of him syncretically, incoporating Christ into ones belief system regardless of what you believe is not difficult.
2) Christianity borrowed so much from the older Pagan tradition: myth-themes, symbolism, holy-days (holidays), titles, mystic practices, cultural mores and the sacred rituals of births, deaths and marriages. With this in mind, one might ask how a Neo-pagan could not fail to recognize his or her faith to some considerable degree in the Chrisitan religion.
3) The Great Goddess of proto-paganism far predates the monotheistic God of Judaism. The God was originally Her divine consort before taking over and assuming Her position and privilages. Polytheism confuses the issue somewhat, because the Goddess appears compartmentalised and in multiplicity, but She is there too. The Abrahamic God does not have a partner now or in the Bible, but many authorities speculate that the hated goddess Asherah might have been Jehovah's counterpart once, in the same way that few remember that Lilith was Adam's first wife in the original myth.
4) Paganism and Wicca are open-ended faiths which respect diversity: if one wishes to go from a Nature-worshipping, magick ceremony in the forest to a Church and pray, one can do so without need of any scriptural precedent or support. There is no contradiction in doing things like this for them.
5) Christianity assimilated paganism 2000 years ago: modern Pagans simply craft for themselves an identity which in turn can assimilate parts of it (Christianity).

Hope that clarifies some things for you.

Pah · Oct 14, 2006

Kcnorwood said:
...
I still would like to know how some of you can be say Christian/Wiccan
Or pagan/Catholics. Im not trying to start a fight but I would like to debate about it.
That is if they dont erase this thread.

First of all right off the bat knowing the 10 commandments number one being Thou shall have to other Gods before me, how did you figure a way around that?

Someone said before that they see God as the God of the grove I believe & the Goddess as his consort. The bible doesnt say anything about him having anyone at his side. Except the Holy Spirit & Jesus.

Considering how the church in general sees people who claim to be Pagan/Wiccan
& What the bible says about us where do you see us fitting in?
Again if you dont feel like getting into this I understand!

Why shouldn't someone who follows the wisdom of Christ be called a Christian? Would not the adoption of Catholic theological criteria also allow for a label "Catholic Christian" as oppossed to a Pentacostal Christian or a JW Christian? The blanket word "Christian" allows for hate-mongers such as Phelps to claim it. It allows for those who owned slaves to be called Christian.

Would not those who follow the intersection of human morality and Christian (belonging only to Christ) be called Christian as well?

In my mind, any who have some of the characteristics of Christ do claim the label even though they vary in the degree of coincidence with Christ. There is no true Christian but Christ.

Mike182 · Oct 14, 2006

Kcnorwood said:
Ok I understand if someone of you dont wish to get in this debate.
I still would like to know how some of you can be say Christian/Wiccan
Or pagan/Catholics. Im not trying to start a fight but I would like to debate about it.
That is if they dont erase this thread.

First of all right off the bat knowing the 10 commandments number one being Thou shall have to other Gods before me, how did you figure a way around that?

i must admitt i lack biblical knowledge, so someone will have to help me out here - did Christ confirm the ten commandments?

Someone said before that they see God as the God of the grove I believe & the Goddess as his consort. The bible doesnt say anything about him having anyone at his side. Except the Holy Spirit & Jesus.

Wicca typically takes one God and Goddess, and being a religion of balance, sees them both as equal - some may see Mary Magdalene as his consort.

the way i see Christianity is like this (and while this can deffinatley be debated, it is a valid view to hold, and one that is compatible with Wiccan beliefs):

1) God - all powerful, all loving, all knowing, and above understanding
2) Jesus - the human God
3) the Holy Spirit - i am ignoring this element of Christianity for now.

1) Christianity is a pantheistic religion, because everything leads back to one "God"
2) Jesus, in my oppinion, is a Pagan Diety - i say this because the Pagan dieties are not at all like the Christian God is defined as, they are not all powerful, all knowing, all loving, or completely beyond understanding - Jesus is not all powerful, all knowing, all loving, or completely beyond understanding.
3) because of this gap between God being all etc and beyond understanding, and Jesus not, i do not see Christianity as a triune religion - so going back to your old testiment argument with the ten commandments, have no other God's? Jesus is an "other God" - why can one not take Jesus as the male aspect of wiccan tradition, and a female Pagan god? (on the basis that we already have one god before God, why not others?)

Considering how the church in general sees people who claim to be Pagan/Wiccan
& What the bible says about us where do you see us fitting in?
Again if you dont feel like getting into this I understand!

[/quote]

Kcnorwood · Oct 15, 2006

What about the 10 comandments? It seems like they have been tossed to the side.

I think I get it I think people dont want to follow scripture like the bible says we should, I can deal with that. Quote by Mike (Christianity is a pantheistic religion, because everything leads back to one "God")

Mike you said the 10 comandments are in the old testment alot of people dont care to bother with it because they believe it was in the past. So we're just supposed to forget about?

Ok got it!

Nuff said

Gentoo · Oct 15, 2006

Kcnorwood said:
What about the 10 comandments?

Indeed, what of the ten commandments? Let's take a look:

1.) Thou shalt not have any other Gods before me
Pretty straight forward. But to answer this, we must first ask ourselves what our view on God is. Let's say, for instance, that someone was brought up Catholic. They enjoyed it for the most part, but some of the ceremony and restrictions got in the way of their true understanding of God.They look elsewhere at other religions. For the sake of the example, they find Wicca. They read about it, and see that the God figure can take any form they feel necessary. Feeling very content with their views on who God is already, they can incorporate what they already believe with their own interpretation of God into the Wicca system. There is still "no other God before me" because it's the same god just in a different light, with a different ceremony attached.

2.) You shall not make for yourself any graven image
There's no real need for one. No book (anywhere on Wicca) says that they must have a idol. So this can still be held.

3.) Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain
This is another easy one to still follow under the label of Wicca.

4.) Remember the Sabbath day, and keep it holy
The Sabbath day can still be observed, by anyone for that matter.

5.) Honor your father and your mother
Honoring those who came before you, not only for your life, but for their teaching is very important concept in Wicca. Why abandon it just because it's under a different guise?

6.) You shall not murder
Enter, the Wiccan Rede.

7.) You shall not commit adultery
Another visit from the Rede.

8.) You shall not steal
The Rede makes yet another appearance

9.) You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor
Truthfulness is instilled in us from a very early age, from our honored predecessors, and for good reason. One could stretch the Rede to encompass this one too.

10.) You shall not covet your neighbor's goods
Once more of the Rede.

Even though I think your real question was to the first commandment, I hope I helped even a little bit.

lilithu · Oct 15, 2006

Apparent contradictions in theology can always be explained/rationalized. I'm sure that for a Jew the idea of worshiping Jesus as God also violates the commandment to have no other gods but for a Christian it's fine.

When I see people self-identify as Christian/Wiccan, what usually comes to my mind is the parallels in symbolism and ritual. As we discussed in another thread, many pagan holidays were co-opted by the Christians, and reinterpreted. That means that for a lot of symbolism, there is both a Pagan interpretation and a Christian interpretation but the underlying practices are similar. Not just Samhain and Halloween, or Yule and Christmas, or Imbolc and Candlemas... How about the similarity of Dionysus being torn apart (the grape vine being cut back) and Jesus' crucifixion, the regrowth of the vine and the ressurection? The use of wine (the product of the grape) as the symbol for renewed life? What about the symbolism of the bread that goes with the wine? What about transubstantiation? If that's not magick, I don't know what is.

When I think of Wicca/Paganism, I think of the quarters: east, south, west, north; spring, summer, autumn, winter; dawn, noon, dusk, midnight; air, fire, water, earth. I also think of the four archangels: michael, gabriel, raphael, uriel; and the four biblical beasts listed in Daniel: eagle, lion, ox, man. When I call quarters, I am just as likely to invoke the archangels as not (unless I'm doing it in a group and have reason to think it will offend someone).

(Of course, I personally am just as likely to invoke Taoist mythic animals or Buddhist bodhisattvas.)

Plus, I have a couple of books on "Christian Magick" were the spells are basically the same in structure as Wiccan spells, except that saints take the place of gods/goddesses.

It really doesn't seem like such a big stretch to me to draw from both traditions.

Jayhawker Soule · Oct 15, 2006

Terrywoodenpic said:
There is good reason to believe that there is only one God.

That being?

lilithu · Oct 15, 2006

Mike182 said:
the way i see Christianity is like this (and while this can deffinatley be debated, it is a valid view to hold, and one that is compatible with Wiccan beliefs):

1) God - all powerful, all loving, all knowing, and above understanding
2) Jesus - the human God
3) the Holy Spirit - i am ignoring this element of Christianity for now.

The Holy Spirit is God immanent in the world, and therefore entirely compatible with pantheism. I actually think you have a harder time explaining God the Father than the Holy Spirit. Many Christians would not agree with your assessment of Christianity being pantheistic because they view God (the Father/creator) as separate from creation.

Kcnorwood · Oct 15, 2006

Thou shalt not have any other Gods before me

That right there should be more then reason enough why you can't combine the two belifes, the christian god doesnt want to share you with anyone.
hence the first commandment. Secondly Wiccans & Pagans worship the Goddess along with the God,now there are some that only worship the Goddess which is female. Yes God might be able to take any form HE wants to but the way the bible talks about females I highly doubt that. What about the Pagans & Wiccans who pratice Magick? Theres no room for that in the bible or Christiany. Once again Wiccan is a ditheistic religion meaning that gives equal right to male AND female deties. Once again the bible does not give women equal anything. As far as Sophia goes she is a Gnostic Goddess & the christian church bands Gnosticism & calls it heresy. Wiccans do not believe that man is sinful by nature they believe in spark of the devine in all people. One more thing Christians are against things like gay marriage, Wiccans/Pagans feel people should live as they want too.

Bishka · Oct 15, 2006

Kcnorwood said:
One more thing Christians are against things like gay marriage,

Not all Christians, don't lump a whole people into one group because some of them feel a certain way.

Bishka · Oct 15, 2006

Kcnorwood said:
. Secondly Wiccans & Pagans worship the Goddess along with the God,now there are some that only worship the Goddess which is female. Yes God might be able to take any form HE wants to but the way the bible talks about females I highly doubt that.

You ever read the book of Ruth? Or heard of Esther or Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Christ?

Kcnorwood said:
What about the Pagans & Wiccans who pratice Magick? Theres no room for that in the bible or Christiany. Once again Wiccan is a ditheistic religion meaning that gives equal right to male AND female deties. Once again the bible does not give women equal anything. As far as Sophia goes she is a Gnostic Goddess & the christian church bands Gnosticism & calls it heresy. Wiccans do not believe that man is sinful by nature they believe in spark of the devine in all people. One more thing Christians are against things like gay marriage, Wiccans/Pagans feel people should live as they want too.

Have you done any research on the MANY different forms of Christianity or are you just planning to lump them all into one ball of clay?

Booko · Oct 15, 2006

Kcnorwood said:
Mike you said the 10 comandments are in the old testment alot of people dont care to bother with it because they believe it was in the past.

Since this is in Religious Debates, I'll just make a passing remark a Jewish friend of mine once made:

What's with this 10 commandments thing? There are more than 600...freakin' turn the page!

lilithu · Oct 15, 2006

Kcnorwood said:
Thou shalt not have any other Gods before me

That right there should be more then reason enough why you can't combine the two belifes, the christian god doesnt want to share you with anyone.

If, as the Abrahamic faiths believe, there is only one God, then it would kinda be impossible to have any other gods before God, wouldn't it? Any god you worship, would be God.

I take that commandment to mean not to worship false idols, such as: money, fame, power, vanity... All these are fleeting and bound to fail you.

Kcnorwood · Oct 16, 2006

yes thats good two women in the bible. Mary was made into a detiy by the catholic church so that the Pagans would feel better about praying to a female Goddess, & then slowly work them away from Paganism all toghether. As far as ruth goes she was just another person in the bible,shes not prayed too.
As far has women being not being treated has equals maybe these bible versus has something to do with it.

Genesis 2:22 3:16,12:13-19,

Exodus 21:4 21:7-11

Numbers 1:2, 31:17,

Durteronmy 22:28 WOW! 24: 1-5

Judges 5:30, 21:10-12,

Speaking of Ruth didnt she have sex BEFORE being married?

Theres TONS more on how God see's women I belive there are at least 26 books of the bible saying more or less what God thinks of women.
Calling yourself a pagan while worshipping the Goddess at the same time sounds like a slap in the face.

Bishka · Oct 16, 2006

Kcnorwood said:
yes thats good two women in the bible. Mary was made into a detiy by the catholic church so that the Pagans would feel better about praying to a female Goddess, & then slowly work them away from Paganism all toghether. As far as ruth goes she was just another person in the bible,shes not prayed too.
As far has women being not being treated has equals maybe these bible versus has something to do with it.

Genesis 2:22 3:16,12:13-19,

Exodus 21:4 21:7-11

Numbers 1:2, 31:17,

Durteronmy 22:28 WOW! 24: 1-5

Judges 5:30, 21:10-12,

Speaking of Ruth didnt she have sex BEFORE being married?

Theres TONS more on how God see's women I belive there are at least 26 books of the bible saying more or less what God thinks of women.
Calling yourself a pagan while worshipping the Goddess at the same time sounds like a slap in the face.

Apparently you haven't read the Bible recently, if you havne't read it, then you can't say anything. Pulling random verses and trying to prove a point is what Fallwell and Robertson do.

Edit: I'll answer more in the morning.

Kcnorwood · Oct 16, 2006

I've read it no matter what you say though NOTHING justifes the way God looks at women, you being a women should know better. Women have been though too many struggles in life to be looked down upon by a higher being. So please go ahead take your best shot.: hamster : Whats really sad is there are men who still treat women like that
& they get it from the bible.

FerventGodSeeker · Oct 16, 2006

Kcnorwood said:
I've read it no matter what you say though NOTHING justifes the way God looks at women, you being a women should know better. Women have been though too many struggles in life to be looked down upon by a higher being. So please go ahead take your best shot.: hamster : Whats really sad is there are men who still treat women like that
& they get it from the bible.

They certainly don't get it from the Bible I'm reading:

"Who can find a virtuous wife? For her worth is far above rubies." Proverbs 31:10
"Charm is deceitful and beauty is passing, but a woman who fears the LORD, she shall be praised." Proverbs 31:30
" The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does." 1 Cor. 7:4
"Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God." 1 Cor. 11:11-12
"So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church." Eph. 5:28-29
"Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world." James 1:27

FerventGodSeeker

Jayhawker Soule · Oct 16, 2006

Booko said:
Since this is in Religious Debates, I'll just make a passing remark a Jewish friend of mine once made:

What's with this 10 commandments thing? There are more than 600...freakin' turn the page!

:clap Well done. :clap

Can we try it again?

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