Thief
Rogue Theologian
ok....but scripture had the obvious
though it may not have been as simply stated....as I do
God gave Man dominion
most of your op is answered by that
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Questions from an Atheist about God
- Thread starter Nimos
- Start date
though it may not have been as simply stated....as I do
God gave Man dominion
most of your op is answered by that
To answer those questions would require a sit down and talk. The amount of text needed to properly explain this would be surmountable. I believe others have alluded to this as well.
Hopefully one day you'll have that sit down with someone who can explain it properly in person.
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
Something that there is an absence or motive for evil intention?
The human heart
Genesis 6:5 New International Version (NIV)
The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.
One of God's laws is mentioned by the Lord Jesus Christ:
Matthew 5:43-48 New International Version (NIV)
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Isn't that good?
In regards to the creation of the Universe, Im a bit lost? So God created it for his Son Jesus, if I understand you correctly, who got crucified after a very short time, compared to the age of the universe regardless of how old one might think it is. So what exactly are we doing here? And I have a difficult time understanding how you would find this a satisfying answer, from Jesus point of view I would understand it, if it were all made for him. So humans were made to "entertain" Jesus? You have to elaborate on that, as Im pretty sure I misunderstand you
John 1
Moffatt(i)
1 THE Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine.
2 He was with God in the very beginning:
3 through him all existence came into being, no existence came into being apart from him.
4 In him life lay, and this life was the Light for men:
5 amid the darkness the Light shone, but the darkness did not master it.
What is the Logos? It is the word.
What is the Logos about? It is about the Lord Jesus Christ.
Logos (UK: /ˈloʊɡɒs, ˈlɒɡɒs/, US: /ˈloʊɡoʊs/; Ancient Greek: λόγος, translit. lógos; from λέγω, légō, lit. 'I say') is a term in Western philosophy, psychology, rhetoric, and religion derived from a Greek word variously meaning "ground", "plea", "opinion", "expectation", "word", "speech", "account", "reason", "proportion", and "discourse"
When God created the universe and everything in it, He created them through the name of Jesus Christ.
The Lord God loved the Lord Jesus Christ even before the universe was created, as the Lord Jesus prayed:
John 17:24 New International Version (NIV)
“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
"So God created it for his Son Jesus, if I understand you correctly, who got crucified after a very short time, compared to the age of the universe regardless of how old one might think it is."
On the contrary, apostle Peter wrote this:
1 Peter 1:18-21 New International Version (NIV)
For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.
Nimos
Well-Known Member
That could explain our lack of understanding of God's intentions or what we believe his reason are for doing what he is. But I do not think it explains why its reasonable for us to claim that God is all good based on his actions, unless our understanding of good and evil is different from those of God.
Nimos
Well-Known Member
Something that there is an absence or motive for evil intention?
The human heart
Genesis 6:5 New International Version (NIV)
The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.
One of God's laws is mentioned by the Lord Jesus Christ:
Matthew 5:43-48 New International Version (NIV)
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Isn't that good?
View attachment 28698
John 1
Moffatt(i)
1 THE Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine.
2 He was with God in the very beginning:
3 through him all existence came into being, no existence came into being apart from him.
4 In him life lay, and this life was the Light for men:
5 amid the darkness the Light shone, but the darkness did not master it.
What is the Logos? It is the word.
What is the Logos about? It is about the Lord Jesus Christ.
Logos (UK: /ˈloʊɡɒs, ˈlɒɡɒs/, US: /ˈloʊɡoʊs/; Ancient Greek: λόγος, translit. lógos; from λέγω, légō, lit. 'I say') is a term in Western philosophy, psychology, rhetoric, and religion derived from a Greek word variously meaning "ground", "plea", "opinion", "expectation", "word", "speech", "account", "reason", "proportion", and "discourse"
When God created the universe and everything in it, He created them through the name of Jesus Christ.
The Lord God loved the Lord Jesus Christ even before the universe was created, as the Lord Jesus prayed:
John 17:24 New International Version (NIV)
“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
"So God created it for his Son Jesus, if I understand you correctly, who got crucified after a very short time, compared to the age of the universe regardless of how old one might think it is."
On the contrary, apostle Peter wrote this:
1 Peter 1:18-21 New International Version (NIV)
For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.
But don't mass murderes or murders have intentions behind them, such as unfulfilled needs which could be sexual, feeling of control, hatred, jealousy etc? You have psychopath who more or less are unable to feel sympathy, which I would tend to think is required to feel a difference or know the difference between good and evil as well.
Regarding the love your enemy, Its a bit like turn the other cheek or do to others as you would have them do to you statement. To me, those are beautiful poetic things to say, but not logic statements. Regarding love your enemy, it depends how one is suppose to understand it. If its meant to be understood literately, it makes no sense to me. If someone is out to hurt me and have decided that they are my enemy for whatever reason, I would defend my self and love is not part of how I would choose to do that. But If its meant as if you have enemies, you shouldn't torture or humiliate them etc. like you have won against them. sort of like a don't hit one that is already defeated kind of idea. It would make a lot more sense to me. So it depend how its meant to be understood. And the "do to others as you would want them do to you", only really make sense if there were a common understanding of how you ought to treat others. A terrorist blowing themselves up already having accepted death, could find meaning in such view. People that enjoy pain, could also find reasons for hurting others. A child molester etc, so I think you run into a lot of issues with the statement. So yes as poetic statements, I guess they are fine. But logically and based on reasoning, that I at least can think of, they don't really make a lot of sense I think.
For the universe being made for Jesus, Its seems to be a fair view based on those verses you have linked to and to why you reach the conclusion that you do.
But how does it explain what you are doing here, why were humans needed on earth?
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Thief
Rogue Theologian
ok....yeah...
given our fleshy situation here on earth
coupled with such a short life span...
it does seem unlikely to open a book and find the right page
the right topic
the right answer
and then go do the right thing
and I can see myself standing before heaven making a plea.....
but.....but.....
the words seemed to clear to me
and now You say I got it all wrong?.....!!!!!
oooops
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
I really don't know.
I think we should ask for the thoughts and the words from these serial killers.
http://listverse.com/2018/09/27/10-chilling-serial-killer-quotes-that-show-they-had-no-remorse/
It is not empty and not a literary poem.
It means you have to have patience and understanding.
Matthew 5:38-42 New International Version (NIV)
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
The gloves are off when someone slaps you on the left cheek [Jesus said the right cheek]
If you will examine the verses closely, the verses are not absolute
If someone is threatening to kill everybody or you, then by all means
Mankind with his heart evil all the time is destined for God's wrath.
That is humanity's destiny.
Zephaniah 1:2-3 New International Version (NIV)
“I will sweep away everything
from the face of the earth,”
declares the Lord.
“I will sweep away both man and beast;
I will sweep away the birds in the sky
and the fish in the sea—
and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble.”
“When I destroy all mankind
on the face of the earth,”
declares the Lord,
Are humans really needed on earth?
It is the mercy of God, that humans live.
2 Peter 3:3-13 New International Version (NIV)
Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.
Nimos
Well-Known Member
What you are answering here ain't that the exact problem? If the words are so clear to you, then it should be no problem to justify why God does the things he does.
So I don't understand, why not explain to women, why it is in their best interest to spend the rest of their life living with the rapist or explain to the homosexuals why God "cursed" them for being as they are and that its good if they suppress their love for each other, and if they don't why its just that they should be killed and they only have themselves to blame for it. It should be easy for you to argue and justify why slavery are perfectly acceptable as long as the rules of the bible is followed.
Yet I haven't seen anyone being able to do that?.
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Nimos
Well-Known Member
You have to clarify that as im not sure I follow you. Have understanding and patience for your enemy, how would one do that or what is meant by it?
So you see humans reason for being here, is so we (well some of you
) can experience a new heaven and new earth? Its not like I have a better answer to it. I just don't see how you see it as a satisfying explanation, if its the case you do or is it about trusting God?
sealchan
Well-Known Member
I think that the original intent of the authors was to capture the sense of our amoral reality and simultaneously put that under the banner of God's intent AND at the same time maintain that God is Good. That is no small trick.
My sort of Christianity is heavily influenced by creative thinkers and scholars who are not themselves believers...my reading of the Bible is most inspired by Robert Alter, my interpretation of the myth of the Bible is most inspired by Joseph Campbell, my understanding of religion and its role in our psychology is most inspired by Carl Jung and William James. My favorite preacher would have to be John Shelby Spong.
I have, therefore, a psychological, comparative mythological, literary approach to the Bible as truth. I have had experiences of God that were crucial in my coming to understand myself as a believer, but my belief generally avoids literalism.
I don't know of any Christian church that would fully embrace that.
Nimos
Well-Known Member
Whether you are correct or not, I have no clue, but I do think that you have a point. And obviously this is very speculative, but I don't think that those that wrote the bible were stupid people or less able to do critical thinking than an average person is today. Logically there were things back then that they weren't able to explain like earthquakes, lightning and so on and why they happened, so assuming that it had some divine origins, is to me the most reasonable explanation they could come up with at the time.
However I don't think they weren't able to see contractions like we do today, meaning that something that is considered good today by most people, like having a child is considered good and loosing one is bad. Would also have made them able to do it, when hearing stories of God killing people and at the same time being told he were good, so I think something is missing, a lot of explanations of how they actually viewed these things. I don't know how much is actually known about that. But the meaning of words like justice, good and evil, at least to me, seems to have changed over time, which could explain why its so difficult to explain a lot of the things written in the bible, because it have changed so much with NT being added and compared to the OT, then you have all the interpretations and directions of Christianity that from what I can understand, believes sort of the same thing, but then again not.
As I said, its speculative and based on nothing, but I find it very hard to believe that a person back then would understand the bible as it is understood today,
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
A woman owes me $1,000 and it has been 192 days and going
I haven't launched a civil or criminal case yet.
She is still on the leased premises.
I don't care if I couldn't collect from her
for as long as she leaves the property by mid June of this year.
Now is this understanding and having patience with my enemy?
You betcha.
I have a lot of evidence and proof of her non payment
But I know its just only money, but she has to leave mid June
So you see humans reason for being here, is so we (well some of you
The world is going to the dogs.
The oceans are dirty
Great Pacific garbage patch - Wikipedia
The air is dirty because of us, people.
It is hot in here because of Global Warming.
World of Change: Global Temperatures
Lots of people killing other people
Told you that is the humans' evil heart.
And the unsolvable climate change
People are thinking about colonizing Mars or Venus
Really now?
I think what people need is a new heaven and a new earth.
Those who believe in Jesus, and in Jesus are entitled to it.
This was the promise and I believe it will come true, someday
Nimos
Well-Known Member
Ok, but someone that owes you money is not necessarily a good definition of an enemy i think
Its not because I care to much about definitions, but in this case it seems that we are fairly far apart in what we mean by enemy.So would you agree that these are good definitions of what is meant by enemy? (Searched on enemy definition):
a .person who is actively opposed or hostile to someone or something.
b. a hostile nation or its armed forces, especially in time of war.
c. a thing that harms or weakens something else.
If you should explain it with these in mind?
I don't think, I made it clear enough what I meant with the question. Why do you think God created humans in the first place? or why did God need us? Im not looking for a right or wrong answer, simply what you think.
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shmogie
Well-Known Member
Let me consider your post with some questions and observations.Edit: This is aimed mainly at Christians that believe that God is Ultimately good and all knowing. others are welcome to share their views as well.
I watch a lot of debates between atheist and religious people, in fact I have watched so many that I can't even count them.
However one thing that bothers me about the whole discussion and that never seems to be very well answered, at least not to my satisfaction, is the claim that God is all knowing and all good, at least that is the general impression I get and hear a lot. But I have never felt that the religious side of the debate have really justified why that is the case, except that it is stated in the bible. Which, maybe not all that unexpected is not really a good answer for an atheist.
My own view on the whole matter is that people can believe what they want, im not an "anti" religious atheist. As I do think that religion in some places can add value to our lives. But I do however think that any belief that affect ones society ought to justify it self of why they should be treated different and why there should be benefits for them due to this. This is not only in regards to religion, but could be the same for atheist, had they some benefits.
The list of questions consists of 10 main ones and some secondary ones, that bothers me and hope that someone can answer and share their views on.
I don't expect people to "speak" for God, simply to share their opinion and justifications on the topics as they see them.
If you don't think some of the questions are clear enough let me know and ill try to explain them better.
Questions.
1. Is it possible for a person to distinguish between right and wrong, without knowing the difference between good and evil?
a. If the answer is no: How do you justify that God punishes Adam and Eve when they don't know the difference between them? And what reason would Eve have to assume that the snake is trying to deceive her?
b. If the answer is yes: Can you give an example of it?
2. It is written in the Bible Genesis "3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made."
Why do you believe God made the serpent more crafty than all the other animals? Why is it important for it to be highlighted in the text?
3. The above text say that God created the serpent and its believed that this is Satan
why do you think God allowed Satan do to evil in the Garden of eden?
4. The following is from Genesis 1 6,6: "6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled."
if God knows everything and can do anything he wants, how is it possible for him to regret, wouldn't he be able to foresee this?
5. God is commonly referred to as being ultimately good and unable to lie. In Deuteronomy 21,18-21 the law says the following: "18 If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him,19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.” 21 Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid."
Given the ability to distinguish good from evil, do you think this is a good way of dealing with such issue or a bad way?
Why do you believe that God, which is all good, thought that death were the best solution to this problem?
Do you agree with the statement that a son per definition should obey their parents, regardless of how the parents might behave?
Do you consider the punishment of death for being stubborn and rebellious towards your parents, justified or a murder?
a. If you consider it murder, doesn't it conflict with one of the ten commandments?
b. If you believe it is justifiable, why do you think that such law is not in effect today, at least in most countries and would you support such law, knowing that God is only good and unable to do evil?
6. Also in Deuteronomy 25, 11 it says the following: "11 If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, 12 you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity."
Of all the things God can do, why do you think this topic were so important that it needed to be added to the law? And do you think that the punishment for it is justifiable?
7. Deuteronomy 22, 28-29 it says the following: "28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[c] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives."
Do you believe that a women or father experiencing something as described above, would agree with this being the definitely best way to solve the issue?
Do you think rape (only if discovered) as a crime ought to be considered worse than being stubborn?
8. Based on the previous questions and given the ability to know the difference between good and evil, can you explain why God is considered ultimately good?
9. Regardless of whether the law is in effect or not, can you explain how something that is considered all knowing and all powerful decided that this were the best laws, what do you think is his reasons for them to be like that?
10. Can you think of any more reasonable laws with more justifiable punishments than those God made in the laws mentioned above, even though you are not all powerful and ultimately good?
The only thing, I would like people not to do, is use the phrase "God work in mysteries ways", "We just can't understand God" etc. Be honest and just write "I don't know" if you have no answer to a specific question.
Thanks
How do you know what good is ? What makes your perception of good, right ?
You declare that God knows the end from the beginning, i.e. He is omniscient. I don´t believe He is omniscient.
How boring if in His mind he has seen everything that will happen in the minutest detail. We become players on a stage mindlessly playing out the script God knew a trillion years before we were born.
Free will is an illusion, I cannot do but what God knows I will do.
Worse, God knowingly created evil, and all itś related pain.
No, God is not omniscient, but He is omnipotent and perfectly prepared to deal with any and every possibility that arises.
I will give you a poor hypothetical, but it makes my point.
For whatever reason, God wants to preserve my life. I go mountain climbing, and near the summit of a huge mountain, I trip and break my leg. Passing me coming down just happens to be the premier orthopedic surgeon of the state. He helps and calls the local rescue team. Cell service has always been bad, but a new tower was brought online yesterday. A navy rescue helicopter, the newest model, happened to be in the area, and rescued me, I could go on, but I hope you see where I am coming from. I personalized this, but Gods preparedness for major events is perfect. He reaches into history and He through omnipotence ensures prophecies are fulfilled etc.
So, God did not knowingly create evil, but He was prepared to deal with it, in Christ.
I hear much from people maligning God because of what humans do to one another.
I believe we are observed by beings we know little about, Paul called them powers and principalities unseen. My opinion is that certainly other worlds are inhabited, and we are an object lesson for the exercise of free will.
In essence, we told God to get out of the way and give us knowledge we were not prepared to handle.
This pitiful world is the result, and every murder, or rape, or war is the condemnation of human free will without Gods input and leadership.
It will end when God is sure the entire universe understands the lesson, not before.
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
Ok, but someone that owes you money is not necessarily a good definition of an enemy i think
So would you agree that these are good definitions of what is meant by enemy? (Searched on enemy definition):
a .person who is actively opposed or hostile to someone or something.
b. a hostile nation or its armed forces, especially in time of war.
c. a thing that harms or weakens something else.
If you should explain it with these in mind?
That means I have no enemy, because I am a good neighbor.
I don't think, I made it clear enough what I meant with the question. Why do you think God created humans in the first place? or why did God need us? Im not looking for a right or wrong answer, simply what you think.
Does God need humans or humans need God?
Is Jesus human?
@Nimos.....perhaps a firm foundation is needed to build all of our beliefs on? No structure will stand without one.
Understanding why we are in this position, having to decide if God exists...and if he does, is any particular religion, the "right" one? If there is a "right" one, how can we tell?
First of all we need to know who put us in this position in the first place? And why are we left to decide when the truth is not clearly discernible? This is a life or death decision, so why is it so hard?
Reading Genesis is a good place to start because it tells us what God's first purpose was in connection with his creation of planet Earth and its many inhabitants......but most especially us, as the only creatures who were made in the "image" of the Creator. Why were we singled out for that difference? What was the purpose of making us different?
If we can answer those questions, it will open up a line of reasoning that fills in all the blanks......that has been my experience anyway.
As a start to what I hope is a fruitful discussion....what do you think? What is our purpose here?
Understanding why we are in this position, having to decide if God exists...and if he does, is any particular religion, the "right" one? If there is a "right" one, how can we tell?
First of all we need to know who put us in this position in the first place? And why are we left to decide when the truth is not clearly discernible? This is a life or death decision, so why is it so hard?
Reading Genesis is a good place to start because it tells us what God's first purpose was in connection with his creation of planet Earth and its many inhabitants......but most especially us, as the only creatures who were made in the "image" of the Creator. Why were we singled out for that difference? What was the purpose of making us different?
If we can answer those questions, it will open up a line of reasoning that fills in all the blanks......that has been my experience anyway.
As a start to what I hope is a fruitful discussion....what do you think? What is our purpose here?
Nimos
Well-Known Member
It depends what "side" of me you ask
Meaning, if you asked in regards to me assuming there is a God and its the one described in the bible. My answer would be whatever God say is good as it is defined by him and not us. We merely have an understanding of it.5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
Which would also explain why the laws are considered holy, just and good according to Romans 7;12:
"So then, the Law itself is holy, and the rule is holy, just, and good."
Since we are ultimately judged by God and can only be saved by him, by following the commandments that God gave us, according to Jesus. It doesn't really matter much what I believe to be good or not if God doesn't agree as I see it. What makes my perception of good right, is a tough one as I really don't agree with God, so I would probably just have to submit and try to follow them the best I could according to the bible.
But if you ask me as an atheist, which might differ a lot from other atheists. Then I don't really believe good and evil exist as they are presented by some religions. To me there seem to only be subjective good and evil created by humans perception, of how we at a given time think things ought to be. And is primarily decided by past experience, our knowledge, environment and whatever personal feelings we might have. By environment it is everything from the society we live in, to our friends and family with whom we share life experiences with. But also from sharing knowledge between people we don't know, like what is done here on this forum for instance.
So what makes my perception of good, right? That is not that easy to answer, since I don't think it exists in the way you are referring to it. But rather the perception of good is what the society, at large believe is right. Therefore my personal "perception of good" is only right to me, but for the most part shared by the community I live in. Its a bit difficult to answer to be honest
But for instant is it always wrong to kill a child? Logically the answer would be yes as we judge it from our view of right and wrong. But looking at passed history, there are examples of societies where people and children have been sacrificed to the God, so for them it probably weren't considered wrong. So our perception of good and evil is just what we have decided they should be. And even today, this perception varies from country to country. So I don't see good or evil exist in the way that its often talked about.
I don't personally claim it, I think there are evidence for it in the bible. There are some Christians that believe it to be so, which is why I wrote it.
Im pretty sure that its stated in the bible, very clearly in fact, that we were created with free will. So you mean that its a wrong translation or God didn't really do it, when you say its an illusion?
So in your view God is not perfect, but also capable of error, but is prepared to deal with it as he is omnipotent?
I can see that it might not fit your view of God, but would you agree that there is some sort of valid argument here against God, if he is all good, all knowing and all powerful as he would logically have the ability to intervene if he wanted?
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sealchan
Well-Known Member
One thing I find that is hard to explain or get across is that in story or art contradiction is not a problem but a feature. To see how in life two conflicting truths seem to be "in play" is to recognize something deep, true, yet mysterious about our experience of life.
When the Bible treats of such contradictory qualities of our experience it is doing so with a literary mastery that is often ignored. In our hyper-rational, modern literalism we fail to recognize what spiritual literature was always meant to address: mystery and revelation.
So I am in no way suggesting that the Biblical authors or audience were naive about contradictions. Rather i believe that many modern readers even and especially devout readers misread the Bible as a work describing a purely factual or literal and rational account of spiritual knowledge. I would go so far as to say that no work of spiritual knowledge which does not treat of the profound paradoxes of our experience qualifies as possessing spiritual knowledge at all.
Nimos
Well-Known Member
To me what you are asking here is obviously as you say an important question. As an atheist and what I think is our purpose here is ever changing. Which I think is a benefit compared to a religious view. As Im not bound to fit a religion into what I think, so one day, I might have the idea that maybe we exist in "existence" itself, which would solve the issue of what created it, as it only have two different states it can be in, either it exist or it doesn't, so it wouldn't need a creator, as it is existence itself. The next day, I think maybe its just a simulation, but being a programmer my self, I quickly dismiss that theory, as there would be to many bugs to observe and also, no programmer would care to program with such detail as is found in the universe. Then I actually think maybe it could be a God thing, but then it would have to be something other than what we already have. And this might sound weird and not meant in any offensive way
But it would have to be another God than those we are being presented for today. As I don't think any of them are mature enough to be the creator of a universe, I really don't think a God capable of creating a universe as we know it, would care for whether girls grab mens private parts or not. To me that is not really my view of what it means to be a God. But if I should choose one religion, it would be the Nordic one. Absolutely amazing stories of imperfect Gods with flaws, who cheat and even one that gets raped. I mean the all mighty Odin, only have one eye . Think about that? a world created from the body of a giant, with dwarfs living beneath the earth etc. Anyone should read those stories, absolutely amazing in my opinion.So basically what it all sums up to is that, I don't know, but to me it is more satisfying to accept that I don't know the answer, than trying to fit a religion into it, because someone tells me to believe it, without any evidence to back it up, besides primarily quoting from the very book that makes the claim in the first place. To me its just not good enough evidence. Then you have the argument, well the body seems to be designed? But is it a logic or even good design, if it were created by a God, what would be the need for the complexity? And in the end I don't see religion answering the question that you asked. At least if you speak about the bible, because its not stated in it, why God created us, so it will always just be a guess as I see it, which is fine if other people think it is satisfying, but it just ain't for me, I need better evidence or I see no reason to take a believe in something concerning something so important, even though we will probably never know the answer.
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sealchan
Well-Known Member
Edit: This is aimed mainly at Christians that believe that God is Ultimately good and all knowing. others are welcome to share their views as well.
I watch a lot of debates between atheist and religious people, in fact I have watched so many that I can't even count them.
However one thing that bothers me about the whole discussion and that never seems to be very well answered, at least not to my satisfaction, is the claim that God is all knowing and all good, at least that is the general impression I get and hear a lot. But I have never felt that the religious side of the debate have really justified why that is the case, except that it is stated in the bible. Which, maybe not all that unexpected is not really a good answer for an atheist.
My own view on the whole matter is that people can believe what they want, im not an "anti" religious atheist. As I do think that religion in some places can add value to our lives. But I do however think that any belief that affect ones society ought to justify it self of why they should be treated different and why there should be benefits for them due to this. This is not only in regards to religion, but could be the same for atheist, had they some benefits.
The list of questions consists of 10 main ones and some secondary ones, that bothers me and hope that someone can answer and share their views on.
I don't expect people to "speak" for God, simply to share their opinion and justifications on the topics as they see them.
If you don't think some of the questions are clear enough let me know and ill try to explain them better.
Questions.
1. Is it possible for a person to distinguish between right and wrong, without knowing the difference between good and evil?
a. If the answer is no: How do you justify that God punishes Adam and Eve when they don't know the difference between them? And what reason would Eve have to assume that the snake is trying to deceive her?
b. If the answer is yes: Can you give an example of it?
2. It is written in the Bible Genesis "3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made."
Why do you believe God made the serpent more crafty than all the other animals? Why is it important for it to be highlighted in the text?
3. The above text say that God created the serpent and its believed that this is Satan
why do you think God allowed Satan do to evil in the Garden of eden?
4. The following is from Genesis 1 6,6: "6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled."
if God knows everything and can do anything he wants, how is it possible for him to regret, wouldn't he be able to foresee this?
5. God is commonly referred to as being ultimately good and unable to lie. In Deuteronomy 21,18-21 the law says the following: "18 If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him,19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.” 21 Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid."
Given the ability to distinguish good from evil, do you think this is a good way of dealing with such issue or a bad way?
Why do you believe that God, which is all good, thought that death were the best solution to this problem?
Do you agree with the statement that a son per definition should obey their parents, regardless of how the parents might behave?
Do you consider the punishment of death for being stubborn and rebellious towards your parents, justified or a murder?
a. If you consider it murder, doesn't it conflict with one of the ten commandments?
b. If you believe it is justifiable, why do you think that such law is not in effect today, at least in most countries and would you support such law, knowing that God is only good and unable to do evil?
6. Also in Deuteronomy 25, 11 it says the following: "11 If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, 12 you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity."
Of all the things God can do, why do you think this topic were so important that it needed to be added to the law? And do you think that the punishment for it is justifiable?
7. Deuteronomy 22, 28-29 it says the following: "28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[c] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives."
Do you believe that a women or father experiencing something as described above, would agree with this being the definitely best way to solve the issue?
Do you think rape (only if discovered) as a crime ought to be considered worse than being stubborn?
8. Based on the previous questions and given the ability to know the difference between good and evil, can you explain why God is considered ultimately good?
9. Regardless of whether the law is in effect or not, can you explain how something that is considered all knowing and all powerful decided that this were the best laws, what do you think is his reasons for them to be like that?
10. Can you think of any more reasonable laws with more justifiable punishments than those God made in the laws mentioned above, even though you are not all powerful and ultimately good?
The only thing, I would like people not to do, is use the phrase "God work in mysteries ways", "We just can't understand God" etc. Be honest and just write "I don't know" if you have no answer to a specific question.
Thanks
I should add that given the direction of our conversation, it is a one-line cop out to say "God works in mysterious ways" in answer to the questions you are asking. But the questions you are asking also do raise the need to recognize that mystery is, in fact, involved. To dismiss that is to fail to address the topic at hand.
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