Questions from an Atheist about God

Edit: This is aimed mainly at Christians that believe that God is Ultimately good and all knowing. others are welcome to share their views as well.

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And 'problem'#1 is revealed! (no insult meant). Many atheists, agonists, and the God curious, even some Christians have been taught or simply believe God is or should be like a big huggable loving teddy bear, full of unconditional supernatural love! According to he bible he isn't that! I may expand and source these short answers, but only if asked to. Lastly the Bible which means 'the book of texts' does agree God is omniscient (all knowing). However the twist is God may choose to be limited in both his omniscient and omnipotent because if he didn't, his creation, the natural law universe would be meaningless.

I watch a lot of debates between atheist and religious people, in fact I have watched so many that I can't even count them. However one thing that bothers me about the whole discussion and that never seems to be very well answered, at least not to my satisfaction, is the claim that God is all knowing and all good, at least that is the general impression I get and hear a lot.

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The number one reason many of my debates are cut short is I while I began replying to one member with sourced researched replies (if needed), its not very long before many, many, anti-religious crusaders some honestly curious and respectful, jump in ! Especially if its apparent I have the upper hand in the convo. Many of those that pile on are not curious, rather they are intent on insult and harm. So the task of replying becomes too great. It takes time to source and write a good reply to one or three members, but when four or more jump in, all with different questions good productive debate becomes impossible. Usually by that time the bulk of my replies are self defense and personal anyway.....!

But I have never felt that the religious side of the debate have really justified why that is the case, except that it is stated in the bible. Which, maybe not all that unexpected is not really a good answer for an atheist.

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I use many methods to explain why I believe in a creator God. I and many other apologists many who have earned PhDs etc. employ methods like logic, science, psychology (of mans desire to worship), microbiology, archology, cultural anthropology, et al.

My own view on the whole matter is that people can believe what they want, im not an "anti" religious atheist. As I do think that religion in some places can add value to our lives.

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I too am a live and let live sort of guy. However my faiths rule book, the bible, tells me to spread the word that God exists and Jesus can forgive any sin. I have a non traditional view about that. Usually I consider my evangelizing quota met if when I meet someone I tell them I am a Christian and love God. That is probably not enough but I think the well meaning but bible ignorant fire and brimstone preachers have actually convinced many Christian curious and others to turn away from Christianity! Also some preachers would never, ever, ever, (lol) reveal that Jesus never condemned homosexuality or reveal any, and I mean ANY doings mentioned in scripture that are not lily white puritan. That is another sadness that if reversed would save numerous souls, and I am sure of that!

But I do however think that any belief that affect ones society ought to justify it self of why they should be treated different and why there should be benefits for them due to this. This is not only in regards to religion, but could be the same for atheist, had they some benefits.

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I am not sure what you are talking about unless its the tax exempt status of Churches. Churches and religious organizations, as well as charities give a humanitarian benefit to our nation. They provide aid to the disadvantaged and poor in their communities that have no government safety net. I believe the moral influence on society reduces crime and encourage good behavior even if today the moral effect is minimal. Also a 501c tax exempt status is the most effective economical (in more ways than money) method to ensure government doesn't violate anything guaranteed by the constitution in regard to churches and religion. See the First Amendment's Establishment Clause.

~~~~ And I didn't even get to your questions.....warning I will answer them soon! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Relevant Trivia quote notes ; "the power to tax involves the power to destroy." Keeping churches tax exempt removes the temptation from government to interfere with the free exercise of religion" (sorry I forgot what pol or judge that said that)

First Amendment info. In 1970, the U.S. Supreme Court held that property tax exemptions for churches were in keeping with the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. (Walz v. Tax Commission)…..


This reply is too long. Even after years of posting I still cannot sound byte my replies etc. I miss the days back when I could afford to pay someone to edit my stuff and do other things. Now I am a poor kind of white old fart, I am the bane of Progressive liberals and radical democrats.....they hate me just for my race, geographical area of birth (southern bible belt hillbilly). They really hate I love Trump, and I am somewhat conservative nature, (except when it comes to censorship, like in art or the written word or music) They would call me racist even though I am simply truthful. Oh I about forgot....They despise I am Christian, and a moderate nationalist.....lets not forget my NRA membership and owning numerous Guns knives and other stuff.....man what have become?…... THANK YOU GOD FOR ALLOWING THOSE MENTIONED (SEE LAST PARAGRAPH) HATE ME.....WHAT MORE CAN I ASK FOR?.... I HAVE ARRIVED !!!!!

9. Can you explain how something that is considered all knowing and all powerful decided that this were the best laws?

Those were not Gods best laws.....I wouldn't know how to rank them anyway because there were over 600(!) Mosaic laws and there are the ten commandants derived from the original 600+ Mosaic law(laws for the Jewish people).. I think the correct number was 613.....

MrMrdevincamus said:

And 'problem'#1 is revealed! (no insult meant). Many atheists, agonists, and the God curious, even some Christians have been taught or simply believe God is or should be like a big huggable loving teddy bear, full of unconditional supernatural love! According to he bible he isn't that! I may expand and source these short answers, but only if asked to. Lastly the Bible which means 'the book of texts' does agree God is omniscient (all knowing). However the twist is God may choose to be limited in both his omniscient and omnipotent because if he didn't, his creation, the natural law universe would be meaningless.

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I understand that people have different religions and views and Ill be honest, it is beyond me to know the differences between all of them, I feel like, regardless of what I have written in the first post, that someone would feel "offended" or that I represent their view on God wrong. I have read the bible (well at least most of it), I have followed lots of debates regarding religion, it is very rarely that those that participate spend a lot of time explaining their view on God. Maybe they should to reduce confusion, I don't know. Im not an expert in the bible in anyway or know Hebrew or Greek, Im an atheist

But to me it seems that quite a few people are able to not feel misrepresented by my post or maybe they are just friendly, because its obvious that I don't know all different religious view in details and what they believe and simply answer or share their view on what they believe is relevant or interesting to them. If some people have the view that God is just as evil as he is good and doesn't know anything at all. I think they should share their opinion, as it would be quite surprising and interesting... at least to me.

Also I do not share the view that its primarily atheists that claim that God is these things to have a go at him. It really is easy to find a lot of videos where religious preachers, debaters etc. say these things. And maybe it could be an interesting topic between religious people what exactly they mean when they say these things. if it could help explain or clarify it for us atheist so it doesn't get misused as much, I think most would welcome it.

Audie said:

Do you actually believe that story, or are
you just describing it?

One of my early questions was, if god is all good,
how can so much (all, according to some) that he made
be bad?

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Just describing it!

Bad and good is a choice every person makes in their heart. To be or not to be i suppose! That all are sinful is a silly generalization. The only point is that everyone must decide for themselves to follow after good or evil.

I am considering throwing my bibles in the trash actually because they do not reflect reality whatsoever. I used to like the Adam/Eve story, but the bible on the whole is incoherent. Its like thrown together generation after generation writers kept the thing alive much like the new addition of star wars. What would you expect of a one story written by many different authors?

Nimos said:

The way I would attempt to answer, for instant question:

8. Based on the previous questions and given the ability to know the difference between good and evil, can you explain why God is considered ultimately good?

Which to me is the most interesting question while trying to be as fair to God as possible as I see it. Meaning withhold certain claims as being absolutely truth.

So all of this have to apply, and can in no way be false.
- God is ultimately good
- God cannot lie
- God is all powerful
- God is all knowing (or far beyond our knowledge).
- Satan is evil

Since God is ultimately good, it is by his definition that things are either considered good or evil. Humans have been given the ability through the tree knowledge to know the different. It doesn't mean that we define it, only God can.

So when God say that killing is wrong and then encourage it or do it himself. It is neither wrong or evil. It all depends on who God says this applies to.

Looking at one of the ten commandments: "You shall not murder" or "You shall not kill" depending on how you translate it. Does not conflict with God being good, as this could refer to how God wanted the Jews to behave towards each other and not a general rule against killing. So God do not want them to fight and murder each other, but those that opposes God.

As far as I know, there is nothing in the bible (might be wrong) indicating that the Jews have any objections against this or that they see any of it as being wrong. They obviously have a lot of complains towards God and trust issues etc. but I don't recall them having any when it comes to killing. Which at least to me would give an explanation to why there seem to be contractions in regards to whether you can kill or not.

Satan is considered evil by God, because he don't trust in him and desires what he have. So when God punishes people, both in the Noa story and I believe that Moses prevent him from doing it again as he gets angry at the Jews, could be because God see Satan reflected in humans, which he obviously don't like.

So in regards to some of the laws, I don't really know how to explain them and how they are considered good. The only reason, I can come up with, is one of the following explanations.

1. Humans have over time, lost or are loosing the ability to distinguish between good and evil or are somehow loosing the connection to God, since we have such a hard time understanding his reasons.

2. That Satan is successfully or as "predicted" corrupting humans to no longer understand good and evil as defined by God.

Obviously, this run into a whole lot of issues and even I are pretty far off seeing this as a valid explanation. But I at least think I have tried to be as honest about it and stick to the five claims, in the beginning that must be absolute truths. So Im not really sure how to make sense of it and why I ask here.

To more directly answer your questions, as you correctly say, that God ask where Adam is hiding, which if he were all knowing probably should have known. And my only explanation is that God have not always been all knowing and that it is something that have been added later. So I don't disagree with you that he is not all knowing, at least not in the beginning as I understand it.

In regards to Jesus predicting his death, Judas etc. Do you have a reference to that?

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As for your questions

1-- God is ultimately good.

God is good, it's humans thats bad, along with Satan.

- God cannot lie, it's beyond God to lie, how can God save anyone, if we can not take God at his word.
If you had a friend that constantly lied to you, would you be able to trust them, Of course you wouldn't.

- God is all powerful,

God is all powerful, As there is nothing that is impossible with God, for that which is impossible with man, All things are possible with God.

- God is all knowing (or far beyond our knowledge). If God is all knowing as many other Christians claim God is, Then ask them to produce which book of the Bible what chapter and verses where it states God is all knowing. Where exactly is that written at?
And don't let them try and pull fast one over on you, What you want is where it pacifically States that God is all knowing.
As many other Christians will try and hand something that in no way comes right out stating that God is all knowing.
As there is no where in any of the books of the Bible that makes such a claim. That God is all knowing.

i- Satan is evil,
In the book of Ezekiel now in this book will plainly show that God is not all knowing.

Ezekiel 28:15---"You was perfect in your ways from the day that you was created,
till iniquity was found in you"

Notice the word ( till ) meaning that God did not know that Satan was evil
( Till ) ( Until ) evil was found in him.

That's like, you had no clue or idea, that your friend was going to be where your at
( Till ) ( until ) You saw them there.

Nimos said:

I understand that people have different religions and views and Ill be honest, it is beyond me to know the differences between all of them, I feel like, regardless of what I have written in the first post, that someone would feel "offended" or that I represent their view on God wrong. I have read the bible (well at least most of it), I have followed lots of debates regarding religion, it is very rarely that those that participate spend a lot of time explaining their view on God. Maybe they should to reduce confusion, I don't know. Im not an expert in the bible in anyway or know Hebrew or Greek, Im an atheist

But to me it seems that quite a few people are able to not feel misrepresented by my post or maybe they are just friendly, because its obvious that I don't know all different religious view in details and what they believe and simply answer or share their view on what they believe is relevant or interesting to them. If some people have the view that God is just as evil as he is good and doesn't know anything at all. I think they should share their opinion, as it would be quite surprising and interesting... at least to me.

Also I do not share the view that its primarily atheists that claim that God is these things to have a go at him. It really is easy to find a lot of videos where religious preachers, debaters etc. say these things. And maybe it could be an interesting topic between religious people what exactly they mean when they say these things. if it could help explain or clarify it for us atheist, so it doesn't get misused as much, I think most would welcome it.

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Actually to read and understand the important stuff in the bible all that is needed is a open mind and a desire to learn or know. I have a background in science and so I socialize with some scientists and those related fields. So I understand why unbelievers are so skeptical of the supernatural aspects of religion sometimes even to being abusive. So the following may fall in that category ; I feel that people today, I am referencing Christian bashers primarily, are beginning to become demonically influenced. The book of Johns Revelation and Daniel mentions as time goes on demonic influence will increase. In Revelation the beheading of Christians for not renouncing their beliefs would occur! That was over a thousand years ago, and was before ISIS! Look around and attempt to be open to understanding. I have seen a lot of years pass, but I've seen nothing compared to what is happening today. The democrats mostly the fringe left, are way off center, not themselves so to speak to the point of denying free speech and making threats of violence. The world is becoming WW2 like in their anti Semitic beliefs and normal people are becoming anti Christian just as prophesied. I could go on but this is a little off topic The point I was attempting to make is perhaps the hate etc in the world today and on a lesser level the confusion and difficulty of understand the bible and disliking Christian etc may not be caused by just wanting to to be pc etc......I know, that is a silly claim...…..maybe.

Nimos said:

I clearly share your view that the laws are both immoral and mysogenistic or my post would make little sense in the first place. However I find your view quite interesting. Do you think these things about the law from only your current knowledge of morality in current times or do you also think that those living at that time, which I assume you mean when you say another time and place, thought it as well. Meaning do you think they would the laws as having been reasonable and good from their point of view?

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I think that the authors of the Bible had a moral code in mind that was in line with what their target community would reasonably accept. But I also think that those target communities lived under more physically, sexually and emotionally abusive conditions. Considering their susceptibility to foreign invasion from time to time and the brutal conditions such a reality imposed, I believe that safety wasn't what it is today in many places in the world. Neither was access to education or wealth so the morality was a bit more in-line with a competitive, root-biological approach (men stronger, more prone to violence with respect to women).

So how do you understand God when read the bible, because you accept that the laws are what they are, but do you still accept that God is ultimately good? Because its the misinterpretations and fallibility of the authors (humans) that are to "blame" for it and not God?

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[/quote]

My answer to this in short, which is probably not a majority Christian view, is that God and His creation is fundamentally amoral--that is, after all, how He is written--but He wants us to be moral nonetheless. His creation, our experience, believers or no is that this is true of reality on the whole. But we can understand that in some inscrutable way, God, in wanting us to enact good in the world, is on the side of good but is constrained to be responsible for a reality that contains the possibility of both.

This constraint is co-equal with that constraint in our own minds that finds that good and evil are inseparable as qualities of our experience. I find the criticism of God as having created evil along with good to be a good argument against God being perfectly good, but it does not invalidate the idea that God is, in effect, only as good as we can perceive Him to be. God is clearly in part responsible for everything and anything in His creation, you can't really think of it any other way unless you make exceptions in how we understand responsibility.

In fact, I see God's sense of responsibility for His creation in how He interacts with it trying to push it toward good even as it clearly fails to go there. The story of the flood is an example of God failing in this respect. At least that is the sense of the author's of the Bible.

Faithofchristian said:

As for your questions

1-- God is ultimately good.

God is good, it's humans thats bad, along with Satan.

- God cannot lie, it's beyond God to lie, how can God save anyone, if we can not take God at his word.
If you had a friend that constantly lied to you, would you be able to trust them, Of course you wouldn't.

- God is all powerful,

God is all powerful, As there is nothing that is impossible with God, for that which is impossible with man, All things are possible with God.

- God is all knowing (or far beyond our knowledge). If God is all knowing as many other Christians claim God is, Then ask them to produce which book of the Bible what chapter and verses where it states God is all knowing. Where exactly is that written at?
And don't let them try and pull fast one over on you, What you want is where it pacifically States that God is all knowing.
As many other Christians will try and hand something that in no way comes right out stating that God is all knowing.
As there is no where in any of the books of the Bible that makes such a claim. That God is all knowing.

i- Satan is evil,
In the book of Ezekiel now in this book will plainly show that God is not all knowing.

Ezekiel 28:15---"You was perfect in your ways from the day that you was created,
till iniquity was found in you"

Notice the word ( till ) meaning that God did not know that Satan was evil
( Till ) ( Until ) evil was found in him.

That's like, you had no clue or idea, that your friend was going to be where your at
( Till ) ( until ) You saw them there.

Click to expand...

I actually share the view that its reasonable based on the bible to make the claim that God is all knowing as it is to say that he ain't, I did post some examples of that in a former post, which you can look at and see if you agree with or not. If you are looking for a one liner that specifically say that he is, I don't think you will find it, at least I couldn't. But my impression when reading the bible is that God is both depending on where you are in the bible. Which is obviously slightly problematic, unless God can choose it at will, as I see it.

MrMrdevincamus said:

Actually to read and understand the important stuff in the bible all that is needed is a open mind and a desire to learn or know. I have a background in science and so I socialize with some scientists and those related fields. So I understand why unbelievers are so skeptical of the supernatural aspects of religion sometimes even to being abusive. So the following may fall in that category ; I feel that people today, I am referencing Christian bashers primarily, are beginning to become demonically influenced. The book of Johns Revelation and Daniel mentions as time goes on demonic influence will increase. In Revelation the beheading of Christians for not renouncing their beliefs would occur! That was over a thousand years ago, and was before ISIS! Look around and attempt to be open to understanding. I have seen a lot of years pass, but I've seen nothing compared to what is happening today. The democrats mostly the fringe left, are way off center, not themselves so to speak to the point of denying free speech and making threats of violence. The world is becoming WW2 like in their anti Semitic beliefs and normal people are becoming anti Christian just as prophesied. I could go on but this is a little off topic The point I was attempting to make is perhaps the hate etc in the world today and on a lesser level the confusion and difficulty of understand the bible and disliking Christian etc may not be caused by just wanting to to be pc etc......I know, that is a silly claim...…..maybe.

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I have seen abusive conversations both from religious people and atheists and for the most part its not really useful, as its obvious that they are not really trying to explain themselves, but simply who can insult the others the most. I think the topic regardless of whether you are an atheist or believer is to important, that it should be handled with some form of respect. For most people its a huge part of how we view the world we live in and care about it. Not just whether someone like ice cream or not.

I think you are correct to some degree, But I don't think its especially aimed at Christians, at least not if you are talking about atheists, we add you all in the same basket , unfortunately some choose to be extremely rude. But think you will always find people like that, don't have to be an atheist to be a jerk. So is it from what you consider atheists you get those impressions? Or other religious views?

sealchan said:

My answer to this in short, which is probably not a majority Christian view, is that God and His creation is fundamentally amoral--that is, after all, how He is written--but He wants us to be moral nonetheless. His creation, our experience, believers or no is that this is true of reality on the whole. But we can understand that in some inscrutable way, God, in wanting us to enact good in the world, is on the side of good but is constrained to be responsible for a reality that contains the possibility of both.

This constraint is co-equal with that constraint in our own minds that finds that good and evil are inseparable as qualities of our experience. I find the criticism of God as having created evil along with good to be a good argument against God being perfectly good, but it does not invalidate the idea that God is, in effect, only as good as we can perceive Him to be. God is clearly in part responsible for everything and anything in His creation, you can't really think of it any other way unless you make exceptions in how we understand responsibility.

In fact, I see God's sense of responsibility for His creation in how He interacts with it trying to push it toward good even as it clearly fails to go there. The story of the flood is an example of God failing in this respect. At least that is the sense of the author's of the Bible.

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So if I understand you correct, you don't mean that God is all good? But also that he is not all powerful as he is constrained or beneath the responsibility of reality, that good and evil must exist, is that correct?

Can you elaborate what you mean with God being partly responsible for his creation, what is meant with partly?

Nimos said:

I actually share the view that its reasonable based on the bible to make the claim that God is all knowing as it is to say that he ain't, I did post some examples of that in a former post, which you can look at and see if you agree or not. If you are looking for a one liner that specifically say that he is, I don't think you will find it, at least I couldn't. But my impression when reading the bible is that God is both depending on where you are in the bible. Which is obviously slightly problematic, unless God can choose it at will, as I see it.

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There is no one liners, As there is nothing saying in the Bible that God is all knowing.

As you have found out
Because it's man's teachings that say, God is all knowing.
And then these Christians will go about saying God is all knowing, Not realizing their Pastors, Preaches are the ones saying God is all knowing, without having anything in the Bible to back it up, So it's just man's teachings.
As I've been studying the Bible for some
45 years, and have never came across anything that will say God is all knowing.

But as you will find out, that not all Christians agrees that God is all knowing.
As you see with me and there are others that agrees that God is not all knowing.

So what you have is, Christians will hear what their Pastors, Preaches will say, and having no awareness or knowledge of understanding what the Bible actually does say, off they go, only taking what they been told and not realizing there's nothing in the Bible to prove that God is all knowing and many other such things, that they are being taught only by man's teachings by their Pastors, Preaches.

As anyone of those other Christians to produce the book and chapters and verses,
And make sure it comes right out saying.
God is all knowing, and don't settle for anything else or less.
All these other Christians will try to do is hand you something that doesn't even say God is all knowing.
I can't even keep count any more, as to how many times I've came across these Christians trying to sell me this
Let's look at this from a different angle,
Seeing that God is all powerful that there is nothing that God can not do and seeing that God created all things on earth and in heaven.
Now ask yourself, What would God possibly be a afraid of.
Would it not make sense that if God was all knowing, that God would haved come out and said so, in the Bible, but yet there's nothing there, that's written saying God is all knowing.

Thank you and have a good day

Nimos said:

1. If I understand you correct, God should be obeyed no matter what? If that's the case why create humans with a free will and in the end why would knowing the difference between good and evil even be relevant, if its just about obeying God because that is what he demand?

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If God was to be obeyed no matter what, there would be no free will. It's not about obeying God because He demands it. Sin can't stand before God. It gets burned away. So that's why God warns us to obey Him and stay away from sin. So that we don't accumulate so much that we are burned away when we stand before Him.

Nimos said:

2/3. I don't really see how Satans knowledge compared to Adam and Eve is relevant, when its God that allows Satan to do what he does?

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You didn't read/understand the question then. The OP ask a question and I answered it as best I could.

Nimos said:

4. I know this is not about Adam and Eve. But rather a question about how it is possible for God to be able to regret?

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Because some humans bred with fallen Angel's to create Nephilim. Also regret didn't quite mean the same back then as it does now. I mean it did, but its nuanced. Best I can explain it is. Sometimes in life before you do something you know it will cause trouble. But you know it has to be done regardless. You do it knowing that while bad things will happen, the good things that need to happen will. At least that is my understanding. I'm not God so best I can do is guess.

Nimos said:

So if I understand you correct, you don't mean that God is all good? But also that he is not all powerful as he is constrained or beneath the responsibility of reality, that good and evil must exist, is that correct?

Can you elaborate what you mean with God being partly responsible for his creation, what is meant with partly?

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I believe that the authors of the Bible were attempting to capture an understanding of a good God but within the limits of language and our experience of the mystery of our existence.

One of the implicit themes, I think, in the Bible is how God has created something which is both dependent and independent of Himself. That independence of His creature is the final demonstration of the goodness of that creature. I don't think the Bible authors were able to directly deal with this situation but you can see traces of it in various parts of the Bible as follows:

• Genesis 2: 8-9,15-17: God says don't do this but puts the bad thing in the middle of the Garden
• Genesis 6: 5-7: God regretted his failure to create good creatures and moved to have them all but destroyed
• Genesis 18: 17-25: God thinks to himself/asks himself whether He should tell something to Abraham; He uses circular reasoning to say that Abraham is good because He will keep the way of the LORD who chose him to keep the way of the LORD. Then after telling Abraham, Abraham question's God's sense of justice
• Job: God holds a wager with Satan to see if Job's faith is based on his good fortune or truly substantial

There are other quotes that put the notion of evil into God's intention as well.

This theme may be an ancient one in myth as it also reveals itself in other traditions. In Wagner's telling of the Norse myth involving Odin and Loki and Siegfried Odin has made a deal with the devil which he later regrets. Since Odin's staff stands for the integrity of all social contracts he cannot undo the deal and save the world from the consequences of that ill-fated deal he was personally involved in. To contrive a means to circumvent that agreement, Odin fosters a race of heroes whom he subjects to the worst of living conditions. The idea is to create a strong individual who can act on his own accord and undo that deal that Odin made without knowingly doing it on behalf of Odin. So the god wants his creation to choose the right path but without his direct assistance and intervention. Whether Odin succeeds in this or not is subject to a detailed debate based on the story told by Wagner in his operas.

As you can see in the Bible we have a similar motif that is much more implicit. Perhaps the fragments of story in the Bible come from an ancient body of story which talks about the relationship between god and man and how morality fits into a world which often doesn't seem to care too much about one's righteousness. That morality has to come from an independence of motive. This is the mystery of the universe from a moral perspective...that goodness and independence of will are intertwined. What is the value of good that we want it but it seems to be such a problematic goal to achieve? Why is it so difficult? Why do people choose to do such evil and why is evil such a strong feature of our existence? Why hasn't God made it easy? or easier? What binds us that prevents an easy decision in favor of good from being made?

The Bible doesn't answer these questions directly and such questions are, perhaps, unanswerable. But the Bible does hint that it was influenced by these questions and its stories suggest that the struggle of humanity to be good in God's amoral creation is a centrally important struggle as it relates in the deepest way to our experience of the universe.

Faithofchristian said:

There is no one liners, As there is nothing saying in the Bible that God is all knowing.

As you have found out
Because it's man's teachings that say, God is all knowing.
And then these Christians will go about saying God is all knowing, Not realizing their Pastors, Preaches are the ones saying God is all knowing, without having anything in the Bible to back it up, So it's just man's teachings.
As I've been studying the Bible for some
45 years, and have never came across anything that will say God is all knowing.

But as you will find out, that not all Christians agrees that God is all knowing.
As you see with me and there are others that agrees that God is not all knowing.

So what you have is, Christians will hear what their Pastors, Preaches will say, and having no awareness or knowledge of understanding what the Bible actually does say, off they go, only taking what they been told and not realizing there's nothing in the Bible to prove that God is all knowing and many other such things, that they are being taught only by man's teachings by their Pastors, Preaches.

As anyone of those other Christians to produce the book and chapters and verses,
And make sure it comes right out saying.
God is all knowing, and don't settle for anything else or less.
All these other Christians will try to do is hand you something that doesn't even say God is all knowing.
I can't even keep count any more, as to how many times I've came across these Christians trying to sell me this
Let's look at this from a different angle,
Seeing that God is all powerful that there is nothing that God can not do and seeing that God created all things on earth and in heaven.
Now ask yourself, What would God possibly be a afraid of.
Would it not make sense that if God was all knowing, that God would haved come out and said so, in the Bible, but yet there's nothing there, that's written saying God is all knowing.

Thank you and have a good day

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I can only echo what I already said, that I can find evidence for both views. Maybe the difference is in how literally one requires something to be to reach a conclusion. I don't think it is a requirement to have absolute confirmation in order to draw a valid conclusion.

Because it would be almost impossible to do critical thinking when approaching a given topic, which does not contain clear solutions. Meaning it would be impossible or unreasonable to even suggest that God may in certain cases act immorally.

For instant Romans 7;12
So then, the Law itself is holy, and the rule is holy, just, and good.

Which pretty much end all discussions, as this claims that the law is good and just and since its not stated else where, that it ain't, then it logically follows that it can't be. Obviously this create a bit of issues with some of us, that clearly do not agree with the law being good. But if the only way to argue against it were to find a verse clearly stating that the law is immoral and if we can't, we simply have to accept that it is good and just.

I do not think that is a reasonable way to argue ones case as its basically just stating things as if they were facts without evidence, which is pretty much against everything I believe in

So I honestly think this is a debate more relevante for Christians, as I don't think its crucial for the question of whether its reasonable to claim that God is all good or not. If one doesn't hold that claim either, wouldn't you simply run into a lot of other issues then? Like God being able to make errors, he is not all powerful and when Jesus say in Matthew 19;17:

Jesus asked him, "Why ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you want to get into that life, you must keep the commandments."

As I understand Jesus and what he implies here is that God is incapable of evil as that would obviously conflict with him being the only one who is good, and if one want to experience good, one would have to hold the commandments as they also are considered good.

So anyway to me, I think if you cannot argue a case, unless its explicit written that something is that way. Religion would not be something of free will and love for God, but merely a case of submitting to God, and personally I don't think that is really what Jesus are trying to imply.

But again I think it could be an interesting discussion for Christians, whether God is all knowing or not.

Enoch07 said:

If God was to be obeyed no matter what, there would be no free will. It's not about obeying God because He demands it. Sin can't stand before God. It gets burned away. So that's why God warns us to obey Him and stay away from sin. So that we don't accumulate so much that we are burned away when we stand before Him.




You didn't read/understand the question then. The OP ask a question and I answered it as best I could.



Because some humans bred with fallen Angel's to create Nephilim. Also regret didn't quite mean the same back then as it does now. I mean it did, but its nuanced. Best I can explain it is. Sometimes in life before you do something you know it will cause trouble. But you know it has to be done regardless. You do it knowing that while bad things will happen, the good things that need to happen will. At least that is my understanding. I'm not God so best I can do is guess.

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Im trying to follow you here.

1. So God helped Adam and Eve in avoiding accumulating to much sin, so when they would finally stand before him they wouldn't burn away by them? But God punish them, so not really sure how that is seen as helping them not accumulating sins? I haven't heard this about sin before, so please elaborate on that?

2. Yes, it was me who asked the original questions Which is why I asked the follow up question, as Im weren't sure what you meant?

3. Ok, so if I get you right, God flooded the world to obtain something better that, may or may not have been revealed to us. So its basically a necessary "evil" view, which is obviously beyond humans to understand as it is part of God's plan. So you would share the view that God is not all knowing, correct?

Nimos said:

1. So God helped Adam and Eve in avoiding accumulating to much sin, so when they would finally stand before him they wouldn't burn away by them? But God punish them, so not really sure how that is seen as helping them not accumulating sins? I haven't heard this about sin before, so please elaborate on that?

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You crossing the wires there so to speak.

If you don't understand it already there is no point in explaining any further.

Nimos said:

2. Yes, it was me who asked the original questions Which is why I asked the follow up question, as Im weren't sure what you meant?

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Ok what's so complicated about it? Seems pretty straight forward to me.

Nimos said:

3. Ok, so if I get you right, God flooded the world to obtain something better that, may or may not have been revealed to us. So its basically a necessary "evil" view, which is obviously beyond humans to understand as it is part of God's plan. So you would share the view that God is not all knowing, correct?

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Its not evil for God to flood the world . Or to simplify and take the flood out of the picture. It's not evil for God to kill humans.

sealchan said:

I believe that the authors of the Bible were attempting to capture an understanding of a good God but within the limits of language and our experience of the mystery of our existence.

One of the implicit themes, I think, in the Bible is how God has created something which is both dependent and independent of Himself. That independence of His creature is the final demonstration of the goodness of that creature. I don't think the Bible authors were able to directly deal with this situation but you can see traces of it in various parts of the Bible as follows:

• Genesis 2: 8-9,15-17: God says don't do this but puts the bad thing in the middle of the Garden
• Genesis 6: 5-7: God regretted his failure to create good creatures and moved to have them all but destroyed
• Genesis 18: 17-25: God thinks to himself/asks himself whether He should tell something to Abraham; He uses circular reasoning to say that Abraham is good because He will keep the way of the LORD who chose him to keep the way of the LORD. Then after telling Abraham, Abraham question's God's sense of justice
• Job: God holds a wager with Satan to see if Job's faith is based on his good fortune or truly substantial

There are other quotes that put the notion of evil into God's intention as well.

This theme may be an ancient one in myth as it also reveals itself in other traditions. In Wagner's telling of the Norse myth involving Odin and Loki and Siegfried Odin has made a deal with the devil which he later regrets. Since Odin's staff stands for the integrity of all social contracts he cannot undo the deal and save the world from the consequences of that ill-fated deal he was personally involved in. To contrive a means to circumvent that agreement, Odin fosters a race of heroes whom he subjects to the worst of living conditions. The idea is to create a strong individual who can act on his own accord and undo that deal that Odin made without knowingly doing it on behalf of Odin. So the god wants his creation to choose the right path but without his direct assistance and intervention. Whether Odin succeeds in this or not is subject to a detailed debate based on the story told by Wagner in his operas.

As you can see in the Bible we have a similar motif that is much more implicit. Perhaps the fragments of story in the Bible come from an ancient body of story which talks about the relationship between god and man and how morality fits into a world which often doesn't seem to care too much about one's righteousness. That morality has to come from an independence of motive. This is the mystery of the universe from a moral perspective...that goodness and independence of will are intertwined. What is the value of good that we want it but it seems to be such a problematic goal to achieve? Why is it so difficult? Why do people choose to do such evil and why is evil such a strong feature of our existence? Why hasn't God made it easy? or easier? What binds us that prevents an easy decision in favor of good from being made?

The Bible doesn't answer these questions directly and such questions are, perhaps, unanswerable. But the Bible does hint that it was influenced by these questions and its stories suggest that the struggle of humanity to be good in God's amoral creation is a centrally important struggle as it relates in the deepest way to our experience of the universe.

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Interesting views, Is this based on your own opinions or do you follow one of the Christian directions?

The story of Job is brought up regularly in debates as its not the easiest one to defend, I assume, there are some strange things going on here. However I cant help thinking that the focus is always on Job, but to me I can't help thinking about his first children which are killed by Satan, which have nothing to do with the wager. Yet God seems to not really notice or care about it, I find that to be one of the most strangest thing in that story.

Enoch07 said:

You crossing the wires there so to speak.

If you don't understand it already there is no point in explaining any further.



Ok what's so complicated about it? Seems pretty straight forward to me.



Its not evil for God to flood the world . Or to simplify and take the flood out of the picture. It's not evil for God to kill humans.

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That's fair enough. No worries then

Nimos said:

That's fair enough. No worries then

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I'm more than happy to answer questions/have a discussion in good faith. But nobody wants that anymore so you get the run around.

Enoch07 said:

I'm more than happy to answer questions/have a discussion in good faith. But nobody wants that anymore so you get the run around.

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Me to, but as I mentioned in a earlier post, I didn't post the questions to start a "debate" with people, yes I hold a different views than most of you.

I don't think, that being an atheist is a superior world view in all aspects, I do however think there are differences and both offers some benefits over the other. But being an atheist doesn't mean that, I have any good answers to any of the important issues that is shared regardless of believe. Such as why we are here on earth? Regardless of whether you are a believer or an atheist there are no answers to it, at least I haven't found any satisfying answers in the bible, that God created us because he thought it were good, doesn't bring me closer to an answer of why he thought it were so. So to me it makes no difference, for these questions and the only answer I can give in return is I have no clue. Which is not a better or more satisfying answer, as someone else suggested that the universe were created for Jesus. Despite I find that unlikely its no worth than not knowing I think, if it makes sense to them.

So when I ask questions, because I don't know how you might reach your conclusion, is not to annoy you. But a lot of different views are being presented here and Ill rather ask questions trying to understand peoples opinions than not. It doesn't mean that I will blindly accept what people are saying as truth, if they seem to not relate to the questions or the story as I understand them in the bible. I guess that is no different, than some of you holding the view that God is all knowing and some don't and you not wanting to simply accept the others view.

I haven't heard the position that you presented about sin before and from the answers you gave in your first post, i didn't think you really took the issues that I raised there into account when you answered. So I asked for some clarification and you made it clear that if I didn't understand them, that you saw no reason to explain further. Which is fine with me as, I don't understand your answers, so not really a lot to do about it.