Who would want to be such a control freak?

Hatchski · Dec 7, 2004

Here is the question I can't get answered.
If there is a god who is all knowing, wouldn't he already know which people are going to hell. Christians say God gives us choice, but wouldn't god already know the choices we were going to make. If this is true, this means god willingly created people who he knew he would later cast into hell for an endless eternity of pain and suffering. If the christian/islamic/jewish god really exists, and is all he says they are, he must be really sick. He creates souls just to throw them into hell.

jewscout · Dec 7, 2004

Hatchski said:
Here is the question I can't get answered.
If there is a god who is all knowing, wouldn't he already know which people are going to hell. Christians say God gives us choice, but wouldn't god already know the choices we were going to make. If this is true, this means god willingly created people who he knew he would later cast into hell for an endless eternity of pain and suffering. If the christian/islamic/jewish god really exists, and is all he says they are, he must be really sick. He creates souls just to throw them into hell.

First off i don't believe in hell in the christian sense and neither, at least of those i've met, do most Jews. G-d is able to see all our possible outcomes in life but we have free will to make the choices in our lives. You don't HAVE to wind up being a bad person, it's not written in stone. You can choose to be better than you are. G-d can see every single infinite possible ending, but it is up to us to decide which one we want.
I think christianity, and to a certian extent Islam, focus way too much on what's going to happen to you after you die. It shouldn't be about death, but life. No one knows what, if anything, waits for us after death the important thing is to be a good person here and now.

Pah · Dec 7, 2004

Moving to a more appropiate forum

pah

jewscout · Dec 7, 2004

pah said:
Moving to a more appropiate forum

pah

Danke Pah

Hatchski · Dec 7, 2004

Is there a Jewish hell? I really don't know. If there is, it just seems to me that any all knowing would have to create people just to cast them into hell. I know we can choose, but god would already know the choices we would make. He'd know even before he created us. SO, why create if only to torture?

Fluffy · Dec 7, 2004

However, Jewscout, God, if he is all knowing, would be able to know exactly which choices we would make before we made them and thereby limiting the infinity of possibilities to one certainty. Of course that has implications on free will itself.

This topic had probably already been argued to death in this forum and since Im feeling a bit out of it right now I won't go down all the different avenues of thought right now. However I've been considering this, along with its implications for a long time now so if you're interested, Hatchski, just let me know.

Hatchski · Dec 7, 2004

I'm in school. I gotta go.

HelpMe · Dec 7, 2004

Hatchski said:
Is there a Jewish hell? I really don't know. If there is...

but god would already know the choices we would make. He'd know even before he created us. SO, why create if only to torture?

1-what if there is not?

2-jewscout already responded to this - 'G-d is able to see all our possible outcomes in life but we have free will to make the choices in our lives...G-d can see every single infinite possible ending, but it is up to us to decide which one we want'

However, Jewscout, God, if he is all knowing, would be able to know exactly which choices we would make

why must 'god' forsee the outcome?

jewscout · Dec 7, 2004

Hatchski said:
Is there a Jewish hell? I really don't know. If there is, it just seems to me that any all knowing would have to create people just to cast them into hell. I know we can choose, but god would already know the choices we would make. He'd know even before he created us. SO, why create if only to torture?

As i've said a dozen times on this forum there aren't real specifics on the afterlife in Judaism and it isn't a focus of the religion unlike many sects of Christianity. The Jewish "hell" or what i prefer to call a "quasi-purgatory" isn't a place for people to be sent for all eternity to burn because HaShem gets some sort of kick out of it. This quasi-purgatory is there to cleanse us of the sins which we will inevitably get in life, ya know being falible creatures and all. But once we are cleansed then we will be permitted to go to "heaven" or "the world to come" or whatever it's supposed to be. It's sorta like detention or time-out. And unlike many sects of christianity, isn't a permenant thing.

Fluffy · Dec 7, 2004

HelpMe said:
why must 'god' forsee the outcome?

A god doesn't have to see the outcome. Unless the god you believe in is defined as being all knowing AND he can see into the future. Now the Christian god, in my personal opinion, is defined as this, although I do not know specific references from the Bible.

jewscout · Dec 7, 2004

Fluffy said:
However, Jewscout, God, if he is all knowing, would be able to know exactly which choices we would make before we made them and thereby limiting the infinity of possibilities to one certainty. Of course that has implications on free will itself.

Yes i see your point. Again i point out that i'm a big proponent of the "mad-lib" concept of free will. I think there are things (obsticles, test, decisions) already written but we have to fill in the blanks. This isn't a jewish thing it's always sorta been my outlook on life. I have had choices put in front of me that i've had to fill in the blanks myself. G-d gives us choice A and B. If we pick A He knows the outcome of that decision and if we pick B He knows that outcome of that decision.

HelpMe · Dec 7, 2004

Fluffy said:
Now the Christian god, in my personal opinion, is defined as this, although I do not know specific references from the Bible.

if you're going to make claims aboot someone(christian 'god'), it is suggested you have evidence aboot the claims unless they are recognized as opinions.

Pah · Dec 7, 2004

Fluffy said:
A god doesn't have to see the outcome. Unless the god you believe in is defined as being all knowing AND he can see into the future. Now the Christian god, in my personal opinion, is defined as this, although I do not know specific references from the Bible.

Helpme said:
if you're going to make claims aboot someone(christian 'god'), it is suggested you have evidence aboot the claims unless they are recognized as opinions.

I believe she did

Bob

croak · Dec 7, 2004

This quasi-purgatory is there to cleanse us of the sins which we will inevitably get in life, ya know being falible creatures and all. But once we are cleansed then we will be permitted to go to "heaven" or "the world to come" or whatever it's supposed to be. It's sorta like detention or time-out. And unlike many sects of christianity, isn't a permenant thing.

Islam says exactly the same thing. Although you might not be there for eternity, you may still be there a long time. Who knows, maybe a billion years for all we know. That would be a very bad thing, though. :scared:

Here is the question I can't get answered.
If there is a god who is all knowing, wouldn't he already know which people are going to hell. Christians say God gives us choice, but wouldn't god already know the choices we were going to make. If this is true, this means god willingly created people who he knew he would later cast into hell for an endless eternity of pain and suffering. If the christian/islamic/jewish god really exists, and is all he says they are, he must be really sick. He creates souls just to throw them into hell.

Interesting point. Well, he knows the outcome. But see, we don't. And that makes a difference. Why? Because if we do go to hell, we can't blame it on Allah. Why? Because even though He knows what decisions we shall make, he gave us free will, meaning we can decide what we want to do. In short, we should blame ourselves for our sins, because even though Allah knew we would make them, He didn't force us. It's soo simple. Just be a good person, and voila! No hell. Oh, and also you should believe in Him and in Muhammed (saas).

HelpMe · Dec 7, 2004

i erred!!

cardero · Dec 7, 2004

That is what I am wondering to. How can we follow another BEings will and still say this existence is important and that it is our own? Could we not follow/worship/adorn GOD in whatever realm that HE currently resides? Why do we exist on this physical realm to do something for a Supreme BEing who does not require anything or can do everything for Himself? Something just does not add up. I think we are going to have to look at things from many different perspectives until we find out exactly what it is that GOD wants (or doesn't want) from us. Either our lives are not our own and there is no reason to continue this charade or there is some other reason for our existence and we are looking in the wrong places for our answers.

croak · Dec 7, 2004

He wants us to worship Him. Plain and simple. And if you actually saw Him, you would immediately oblige.

Scuba Pete · Dec 7, 2004

God is infinitely powerful.
And yet he allows us to choose freely.

God is Love.
Love is a choice.

God has given us everything we need to see him and acknowledge him. But he will not remove our ability to choose to worship him or not.

How do we worship God?

Matthew 25:40 "The King will reply, `I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

We worship God by choosing to love others. By choosing to SERVE others. Even if you don't believe in God, you show him worship when you show self sacrifice.

The REAL "Control Freak" is Satan. He has enslaved the entire world. That's why we often fail to do what we know is right. It's also why there is so much hate in the world. Satan makes us do what we know to be wrong. What's more, he has placed the blame (in our minds) squarely on the one who is NOT responsible for this mess. He has obfuscated the truth and sold us Hate at a wholesale rate.

Fluffy · Dec 7, 2004

Thats a really interesting idea Jewscout. A way of thinking about the problem which I have not considered before. It doesn't, in my mind, solve the arguments of "free will: illusion or reality" nor "Whats the point of free will?" when looked at in the context of God's omniscience. However ignoring those arguments, the system which you describe, seems to be a very logical and fair one.

Thanks Pah, however after trying to actually find a quotation from the Bible to support the claim that God is all knowing, I think HelpMe is quite right in giving me a spiking for assuming knowledge like that.
I must point out that this assumption was made in the thread starter and so i was arguing within the confines of the original scenario. However, the following passage I think supports the idea that God is omniscient:
Psalm 139 and verse 1: "O Lord, thou hast searched me, and known me. Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether".

Additionally, I would point to the many prophecies, given to man from God, as proof that God can see into the future, or at least that he thinks he can.

Ronald · Dec 7, 2004

When half truths are espoused, what is the other half?
As Jewscout said, God is good, He is not in business to condemn men. God wants man to be as good as he is. Do good and reap good. In this life.
God promised man redemption and restoration to perfection.

Who would want to be such a control freak?

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