Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
writer said:
What on earth do you mean when you say, "The fact that they are deceased has no bearing on this"? How could it not have bearing on it? We can ask the living to pray for us because they are alive and can hear us. There is absolutely nothing scriptural to indicate that we can commune with the dead by our thoughts or even verbally. I know the Catholic response to this will be that it's "tradition." I know it's "tradition." What I would like to know is how and when it started. Who was the first "Saint" named by the Church? When was he or she designated as a "Saint"? And, if new revelation to the Church had long since ceased, what was the rationale for deciding that a deceased person could respond to petitions made by the living to pray for them?michel said:
Im very surprised by your response, katzpur, as i know it is a big part of the mormon faith to be baptised for the dead. If you think its not relevant to pray for the dead, as the catholics do, then what do you think of your own religions practise of baptism for the dead?Katzpur said:
I think you may have misunderstood. I do not take issue with the Catholic practice of praying for the dead. As a matter of fact, I have always found it kind of interesting to note that the Catholics and the Latter-day Saints are different from the Protestants in that we both believe there is something the living can do to benefit the dead in some way.stimpy said:
Katzpur said:
Stimpy,stimpy said:
You do realise that when we say intercede, we and the RCs merely mean lend their prayers to ours, don't you? (Oh, and there is compelling evidence of prayer 'to' martyrs in the Roman catacombs, so it's an extremely early tradition, the Church didn't initially declare saints (it still doesn't work for us like it does for the RCs) but popular veneration started spontaneously, and there is evidence of saints hearing prayers in Scripture - just try reading Revelation, all to answer a post you made further up the page).Katzpur said:
This is precisely what we believe, that saints hear through the grace of God, not through some personal power. You do know about the doctrine of Theosis, don't you?
Well, I'm afraid that you believe wrong. As I said, there's a lot of evidence of prayer 'to' first century martyrs. By the second century I'm pretty certain I could find Patristic writings referring to the practice. It really has been the tradition of the Church from the beginning. It appears to me that most of your problem with the idea is down to a misunderstanding. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you appear to be envisioning the saint acting as a go between, a sort of messenger. That's not the case at all. I don't pray to my patron saint, tell him what I want and he then trots off and lets God know.
If it's "entirely unnecessary" to ask saints in heaven to pray for you, then by the same token it's "entirely unnecesary" to ask Christians here on Earth to pray for you. But then, I'm betting you've had a few prayer requests that you've asked your Christian friends and family to pray about, right?New Life said:
FerventGodSeeker said:If it's "entirely unnecessary" to ask saints in heaven to pray for you, then by the same token it's "entirely unnecesary" to ask Christians here on Earth to pray for you. But then, I'm betting you've had a few prayer requests that you've asked your Christian friends and family to pray about, right?
No Catholic (Orthodox or Roman) would argue otherwise, but isn't it better toitake advantage of the opportunities you have? Scripture is clear on the worth of prayers of a righteous man.New Life said:
That isn't the argument. The prayers of the saints are, as Scripture states clearly, efficacious becaus the saints are righteous. They also happen to be in heaven because they are righteous but it is the righteousness and not the position in heaven which, very Scripturally indeed, makes the prayer efficacious.
No. God is God of the living. They are not dead but alive in God. We're not talking about communing with evil spirits or necromancy here but saying that God allows them to hear our prayers through His Grace. The prayers still go to God whether we ask the help of the saints or not.
Geoffthe3rd said:
You must have missed the part which said, "he begins to be present sacramentally as the spiritual food of the faithful." As I understand it, this is referring to a spiritual change in the elements, not a physical change in the physical makeup of the elements. Protestants tend to take these descriptions to the extreme and accuse Catholics of cannibalism, but they miss the point that the changes to the elements are spiritual, not physical.New Life said:
It's not a re-sacrifice. Christ's sacrifice was eternal, not just a historical momenet in time thing. The Eucharist is participation in that eternal sacrifice . Surely you wouldn't seek to circumscribe God with time? This also, is not a peculiarly RC belief, both us and the Oriental Orthodox also believe identically on this. It's only the Protestants who differ, but then most Protestants also deny the Real Presence, so that's hardly surprising.New Life said:
Yes, I realize that. It's the idea that we can communicate to them, to ask them to do this that bothers me.JamesThePersian said:
Okay, thank you. I stand corrected then. I never have said I know everything about this tradition.
Apparently not.
LOL. No, that's not quite how I envisioned it, James. I realize that they are merely praying for you, along with you. I suspect that if I understood the doctrine of Theosis, that might help. But the Roman Catholics don't believe in Theosis, do they? Would their doctrine concerning the Saints' intercession be different from yours?
Sorry, but you lost me here. Please clarify if you think it's an important point.
