When and where Baha'ullah took Bahaullah's Covenant?

paarsurrey · Apr 25, 2019

When and where Baha'ullah took Bahaullah's Covenant?

When they assembled in the Garden and Bahaullah addressed his people, did they make a list of the members who signed the Covenant at that time, or they did not. Any details towards that, please.

Regards

paarsurrey · Apr 25, 2019

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
The Bab and Baha'u'llah brought about a new way of thinking. If we look back we can see what that thinking is, in what we know of the title of past Messengers;

Abraham was known as the 'Friend of God'.
Moses was known as the 'One Who spoke with God'. Jesus was known as 'the Spirit of God', or the 'Word of God' according to the Qur'an and in the Bible the 'Son of God' Muhammad was known as the 'Messenger of God' and the 'Seal of the Messengers'.

The Bible tells us that we await the 'Day of God' or the 'Day of Jehovah' when God the 'Father' will be with us, this is what the Jews await in a Messiah.

The Bab ushered in this 'great and dreadful day of the Lord' and as such the way we see the Manifestation has changed.

The Bab now begins to use a new terminology such as "mazhar-i Amr'u'llah", or the "Manifestation of the Cause" or "Command of God". The short version is "Manifestation of God"

Thus the Bab's revelation was to prepare and point us towards the 'Glory of God', who is Baha'u'llah.

Do you see the progression of how we see the connection between the Messenger and God in their Titles?

Regards Tony

"Thus the Bab's revelation was to prepare and point us towards the 'Glory of God', who is Baha'u'llah."Unquote

It may be a wishful thinking of the Bahaism people.
When Bahaullah went out of Islam, all these things become meaningless.

But the Bahaullah's followers should stick to their faith, as they are used to, after-all I don't consider them a bad people.

Regards

TransmutingSoul · Apr 25, 2019

paarsurrey said:
It may be a wishful thinking of the Bahaism people.
When Bahaullah went out of Islam, all these things become meaningless.

Baha'u'llah brought us back to true Islam. We are connected to all of the Messengers of Allah.

Why else do you see Baha'i around the world supporting Muhammad and the Quran and all of God's Messengers.

Regards Tony

CG Didymus · Apr 25, 2019

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
The Bab ushered in this 'great and dreadful day of the Lord' and as such the way we see the Manifestation has changed.
Regards Tony

With terminology like it will be so bad that if God didn't stop it, there would be no flesh left alive... that people will want to die rather than go through the tribulations of the end times. That did not happen and has not happened, yet.

CG Didymus · Apr 25, 2019

stvdv said:
I have no problems when a person is given another name. What counts is him living an exemplary life:
Shirdi Sai Baba's real name remains unknown. The name Sai was given to him by Mhalsapati when he arrived at Shirdi, a town now in the west Indian state of Maharashtra. The word Sai refers to a religious mendicant but can also mean God.

But where did those titles come from? Now that those two men are known by those titles, it is easy to go back and see in the Bible references that say things about a gate and that the world will be filled with glory of God. But are those prophecies if the people that claim them as prophecies changed their name to The Gate and The Glory of God? And, sure it fits into the Bible, but what about other religions? Like does Krishna or Buddha say that when they return there will be two prophets/avatars/manifestations and that they will be called by some particular name or title?

TransmutingSoul · Apr 25, 2019

CG Didymus said:
With terminology like it will be so bad that if God didn't stop it, there would be no flesh left alive... that people will want to die rather than go through the tribulations of the end times. That did not happen and has not happened, yet.

Maybe it is that we just do not hear many peoples hearts, as I doubt there is a person alive that has not thought about ending life in their heart.

Most do not act on these thoughts though, many just let them go and give them little credit. I had a brother that made the wrong choice and is no longer with us. My choice was to find the happy in all what happens to me, my family, my community and the world.I live in, as I do not control any bodies destiny.

"...What “oppression” is greater than that which hath been recounted? What “oppression” is more grievous than that a soul seeking the truth, and wishing to attain unto the knowledge of God, should know not where to go for it and from whom to seek it? For opinions have sorely differed, and the ways unto the attainment of God have multiplied. This “oppression” is the essential feature of every Revelation. Unless it cometh to pass, the Sun of Truth will not be made manifest. For the break of the morn of divine guidance must needs follow the darkness of the night of error...."

Regards Tony

CG Didymus · Apr 25, 2019

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Maybe it is that we just do not hear many peoples hearts, as I doubt there is a person alive that has not thought about ending life in their heart.

Most do not act on these thoughts though, many just let them go and give them little credit. I had a brother that made the wrong choice and is no longer with us. My choice was to find the happy in all what happens to me, my family, my community and the world.I live in, as I do not control any bodies destiny.

"...What “oppression” is greater than that which hath been recounted? What “oppression” is more grievous than that a soul seeking the truth, and wishing to attain unto the knowledge of God, should know not where to go for it and from whom to seek it? For opinions have sorely differed, and the ways unto the attainment of God have multiplied. This “oppression” is the essential feature of every Revelation. Unless it cometh to pass, the Sun of Truth will not be made manifest. For the break of the morn of divine guidance must needs follow the darkness of the night of error...."

Regards Tony

I'm talking about the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse kind of tumultuous stuff... plagues and famines and wars and natural disasters. We had them. We still are having them. And very well could be heading towards a big one. Baha'is, maybe it was you that said that a great calamity is going to happen and then... people will turn to the Baha'is. But, the Book of Revelation sure makes it sounds like the disasters happen before Christ returns.

TransmutingSoul · Apr 26, 2019

CG Didymus said:
I'm talking about the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse kind of tumultuous stuff... plagues and famines and wars and natural disasters. We had them. We still are having them. And very well could be heading towards a big one. Baha'is, maybe it was you that said that a great calamity is going to happen and then... people will turn to the Baha'is. But, the Book of Revelation sure makes it sounds like the disasters happen before Christ returns.

I am sure we covered this. We are told not to dwell on passages such as these, but work hard to become servants of humanity;

"The general messages of the Guardian to the world-wide Bahá'í community make clear reference in several places to a "retributive calamity" which will purify the human race and knit its components into a unified whole. One of the most detailed passages from the writings of the Guardian is the following:

"The violent derangement of the world's equilibrium; the trembling that will seize the limbs of mankind; the radical transformation of human society; the rolling up of the present-day Order; the fundamental changes affecting the structure of government; the weakening of the pillars of religion; the rise of dictatorships; the spread of tyranny; the fall of monarchies; the decline of ecclesiastical institutions; the increase of anarchy and chaos; the extension and consolidation of the Movement of the Left; the fanning into flame of the smouldering fire of racial strife; the development of infernal engines of war; the burning of cities; the contamination of the atmosphere of the earth — these stand out as the signs and portents that must either herald or accompany the retributive calamity which, as decreed by Him Who is the Judge and Redeemer of mankind, must, sooner or later, afflict a society which, for the most part, and for over a century, has turned a deaf ear to the Voice of God's Messenger in this day — a calamity which must purge the human race of the dross of its age-long corruptions, and weld its component parts into a firmly-knit world-embracing Fellowship..." (Taken from "Messages to the Bahá'í World 1950-1957" by Shoghi Effendi, page 103)

"He has been told that some of the friends are disturbed over reports brought back by the pilgrims concerning the dangers facing America in the future whenever another world conflagration breaks out....He does not feel that the Bahá'ís should waste time dwelling on the dark side of things. Any intelligent person can understand from the experiences of the last world war, and keeping abreast of what modern science has developed in the way of weapons for any future war, that big cities all over the world are going to be in tremendous danger. This is what the Guardian has said to the pilgrims..."

Regards Tony

danieldemol · Apr 26, 2019

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
I am sure we covered this. We talked about pilgrim notes from Shoghi Effendi at a tumultuous time in history. Those notes are not scripture but we are told they may contain points of interest. In many recorded table talks Shoghi Effendi has said that Baha'u'llah spiritually fulfilled prophecy and it may be possible the calamity in the bible is still possible.

Records such as these, but please remember they are table talks, then written down from memory later. The pilgrims have said they are amazed as to how different their recollections of the talks were and as such the notes are more a persons style, not the way it may have actually been delivered.

"...The people of the world are impure. The world needs a blood-letting. The retributive calamity which is to come will be like a giant blood-letting through which the non-Bahá'ís of the world will be purified. The Bahá'ís are also impure and they will be purified through the opposition which will come to the Faith everywhere in the world. There are two processes of purification which must take place: purification of the outer non-Bahá'í world through the retributive calamity, the purification of the Bahá'í world through the world-wide opposition to the Faith. It is quite possible that the two-thirds of the earth's population spoke of in the Bible will be annihilated. This is quite possible....."

".. A retributive calamity which will be worse than war will come. It will appear suddenly — not by degrees. It will take place in the twinkling of an eye. You will go to bed one night; and when you wake up in the morning, it will be all over. You will know when it is coming. You will read about it in the newspapers and hear about it on the radio. You will recognize the signs of its coming. Read the newspaper editorial pages. The interpretation of the news is what is important.

The northern hemisphere will suffer most. There will be large areas of the earth that become uninhabitable — unarable. The southern continents will become more important in the future.

North America will be the worst affected — especially the United States. The Bahá'ís should not think that they have any special protection simply because they are Bahá'ís. Their only protection is in their dedication to the Faith. The homes of the American Bahá'ís will evaporate over-night. They will become refugees to other continents...."

Regards Tony

Personally I disregard prophecies contained in pilgrim's notes. And I think there are a couple of valid reasons for doing so.
1. I see it as not honest to - if a prophecy comes true say it was from Shoghi Effendi all along, but if it turns out false it was only a faulty pilgrims note.
2. If God told Shoghi Effendi that North America was going to be wiped out and He did not pass it on in an official warning to the Baha'is then He was (God forbid) morally culpable for not passing on the warning clearly.

TransmutingSoul · Apr 26, 2019

danieldemol said:
Personally I disregard prophecies contained in pilgrim's notes. And I think there are a couple of valid reasons for doing so.
1. I see it as not honest to - if a prophecy comes true say it was from Shoghi Effendi all along, but if it turns out false it was only a faulty pilgrims note.
2. If God told Shoghi Effendi that North America was going to be wiped out and He did not pass it on in an official warning to the Baha'is then He was (God forbid) morally culpable for not passing on the warning clearly.

That is fair, I was on my phone and did not think. I deleted the Pilgrim note and replaced it with an Official Writing from this message;

Pilgrims Notes and the "Calamity"

Regards Tony

paarsurrey · Apr 26, 2019

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Baha'u'llah brought us back to true Islam. We are connected to all of the Messengers of Allah.

Why else do you see Baha'i around the world supporting Muhammad and the Quran and all of God's Messengers.

Regards Tony

Then Bahaullah would have not invented a "New Religion" later proclaimed to be "Bahaism". Bahaullah followers' are doing such acts only to put dust in the eyes of Muslims. Even if they cease doing it, these will have no effects on Islam/Quran/Muhammad. It is their "love and sales" technique as our friend @siti told us, please.
Other religions followers will give there own defense, I am not there to defend them. For instance our friend @RabbiO can defend their own religion "Judaism", if he likes it to do, no compulsion, please.

Regards

TransmutingSoul · Apr 26, 2019

paarsurrey said:
Then Bahaullah would have not invented a "New Religion" later proclaimed to be "Bahaism". Bahaullah followers' are doing such acts only to put dust in the eyes of Muslims. Even if they cease to doing it, these have no bearing on Islam/Quran/Muhammad.
Other religions followers will give there own defense, I am not their to defend them. For instance our friend @RabbiO can defend their own religion "Judaism", if he likes it to do, no compulsion.

Regards

That would just the same as saying that Muhammad invented a new religion. Allah gave the Revelations to Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah and to all the Mesengers. Allah doeth as He Willeth and we are to submit to that guidance.

When arguments get this weak paarsurry, it is obvious that one has seen a power in the Message of Baha'u'llah that matches the power in the Message given by Muhammad in the Quran.

You can now understand why the Muslim Divines of Persia slaughtered the Bab'i and then continued with the Baha'i. They witnessed the power that Allah releases in the 'Word' given to a Messenger.

"It is not for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter, that they should [thereafter] have any choice about their affair. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has certainly strayed into clear error. 33:36

Quran 3:19 tells you that a choice has to be made.

"O our Sustainer! Verily, Thou wilt gather mankind together to witness the Day about [the coming of] which there is no doubt: verily, God never fails to fulfil His promise." - 3:9

Regards Tony

InvestigateTruth · Apr 26, 2019

paarsurrey said:
Then Bahaullah would have not invented a "New Religion" later proclaimed to be "Bahaism". Bahaullah followers' are doing such acts only to put dust in the eyes of Muslims. Even if they cease doing it, these will have no effects on Islam/Quran/Muhammad. It is their "love and sales" technique as our friend @siti told us, please.
Other religions followers will give there own defense, I am not there to defend them. For instance our friend @RabbiO can defend their own religion "Judaism", if he likes it to do, no compulsion, please.

Regards

Baha'i Faith is a new form of Islam, just as Quranic Revelation was a newer form of Islam in comparison with Christianity. Just as Christianity was a newer form of Islam in comparison to Jewish Faith. Do you know that, the Word Islam, in Quran is not the specific Revelation of Muhammad, but even Moses, Jesus, and all other Messengers brought different versions of Islam, albeit each has its own different Rites.

CG Didymus · Apr 26, 2019

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
I am sure we covered this. We are told not to dwell on passages such as these, but work hard to become servants of humanity;

"The general messages of the Guardian to the world-wide Bahá'í community make clear reference in several places to a "retributive calamity" which will purify the human race and knit its components into a unified whole. One of the most detailed passages from the writings of the Guardian is the following:

"The violent derangement of the world's equilibrium; the trembling that will seize the limbs of mankind; the radical transformation of human society; the rolling up of the present-day Order; the fundamental changes affecting the structure of government; the weakening of the pillars of religion; the rise of dictatorships; the spread of tyranny; the fall of monarchies; the decline of ecclesiastical institutions; the increase of anarchy and chaos; the extension and consolidation of the Movement of the Left; the fanning into flame of the smouldering fire of racial strife; the development of infernal engines of war; the burning of cities; the contamination of the atmosphere of the earth — these stand out as the signs and portents that must either herald or accompany the retributive calamity which, as decreed by Him Who is the Judge and Redeemer of mankind, must, sooner or later, afflict a society which, for the most part, and for over a century, has turned a deaf ear to the Voice of God's Messenger in this day — a calamity which must purge the human race of the dross of its age-long corruptions, and weld its component parts into a firmly-knit world-embracing Fellowship..." (Taken from "Messages to the Bahá'í World 1950-1957" by Shoghi Effendi, page 103)

"He has been told that some of the friends are disturbed over reports brought back by the pilgrims concerning the dangers facing America in the future whenever another world conflagration breaks out....He does not feel that the Bahá'ís should waste time dwelling on the dark side of things. Any intelligent person can understand from the experiences of the last world war, and keeping abreast of what modern science has developed in the way of weapons for any future war, that big cities all over the world are going to be in tremendous danger. This is what the Guardian has said to the pilgrims..."

Regards Tony

Yeah, but this is NT kind of stuff. Things that Christians can read in their Scriptures. And the return sure sounds like it happens after the famines and plagues and the Battle of Armageddon. The Book of Revelation makes it sounds so bad that it is hard to imagine that it has already taken place. I think that is one the biggest reason why Christians don't believe the claims of the Baha'i Faith. The "signs" and the "prophecies", for them, haven't happened yet. And what's worse, many Baha'i explanations about Revelation tie in things that happened in the Islamic world. But the NT ties a lot of things to Israel, the Jews, and Jerusalem.

TransmutingSoul · Apr 26, 2019

CG Didymus said:
Yeah, but this is NT kind of stuff. Things that Christians can read in their Scriptures. And the return sure sounds like it happens after the famines and plagues and the Battle of Armageddon. The Book of Revelation makes it sounds so bad that it is hard to imagine that it has already taken place. I think that is one the biggest reason why Christians don't believe the claims of the Baha'i Faith. The "signs" and the "prophecies", for them, haven't happened yet. And what's worse, many Baha'i explanations about Revelation tie in things that happened in the Islamic world. But the NT ties a lot of things to Israel, the Jews, and Jerusalem.

I am not surprised. How do you think Christ would view the money changers of this age.

We were born in a material world and as that falls away one can see the devastation it has caused.

The mountains have crumbled, the stars have fallen, the sun has ceased to shine the limbs of mankind have quaked, etc

Also consider it like the dawn of a new day. All the attributes of the new day are in the rising of the sun the first glimpses of that potential day come at first light. As it dawns the potential radiates with a refacted intensity. It is at this stage we live the Sun is just poking abive the horizon.

As it rises the ray's penetrate with a greater intensity. That may be a year away, that may be 10 years away, that may be 100 years away?

The potential of the Sun and the effects are alwayd an inherent part of the Sun.

Regards Tony

When and where Baha'ullah took Bahaullah's Covenant?

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