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The Original Sin: who is to blame?

F

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
ecco said:
He does, does he?
Luke 6:37-42

37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged."
Click to expand...

Now what does Christ Jesus mean by
"Do not not judge, and you will not be
Judge"

If you judge someone and your judgement is not righteous judgement, then Christ Jesus will judge you by the same judgement that you judge others by.

But Christ Jesus will do righteous judgement.

Christ Jesus sure does in
John 7:24---"Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment"

Therefore Christ Jesus does say judge, But judge not by the appearance, but judge righteous judgement.

Have you any idea what righteous judgement is?
Righteous judgement means, make sure that a person is doing what their revealing, otherwise if you do not judge them by righteous judgement, then your judging is false, and Christ Jesus shall judge you by same judgement that you judge others by

But Christ Jesus judgement shall be righteously.

Whether you agree or not, Christ Jesus does give permission to judge, As long as it's Righteous judgement.
 
F

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
ecco said:
WRONG!

In context, he is telling those people to not compare him to poorly to Moses.

19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? 20The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee? 21Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and ye all marvel. 22Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers; ) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man. 23If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day? 24Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.​

Did you intentionally take one verse out of context to suit your agenda? Or are you ignorant of its meaning in the context of Jesus' entire comment?
Click to expand...

Are you ignorant yourself, It's very plain to see and understand what Christ Jesus is speaking about and referring to.

Had you any knowledge of understanding,
Christ Jesus was using the Sabbath day as example, to show people that if they do judge someone to make sure that they do it by righteous judgement and not by the appearance.

It seems you have an awful time in understanding how Christ Jesus will use other things for an example to get people to understand the trueness of righteous judgement.
And the appearance of judgement.
 
IndigoChild5559

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
ecco said:
23If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?
Click to expand...
BTW, it *is* standard Jewish law that a male child be circumcised on the eighth day, even if that eighth day is the Shabbat (with a few exceptions) so Jesus is right on this one.
 
sooda

sooda

Veteran Member
TagliatelliMonster said:
Yeah, I'm not really interested in the "no true shariah law" fallacy either.
I don't care what the eutopian idea is of what it is supposed to be like.

I just look at the world and look at how it is practiced / implemented - as that is what we actually have to deal with.

Communism sounds fine on eutopian paper as well. Who cares. In the real world, the communism we actually have to deal with is the likes of the Soviet Union and North Korea.



How civilised.



"We"? I don't know where you think I live, but where I live, capital punishment is illegal and seen as extremely barbaric.



:rolleyes:

Don't make me link cases where rape victims were stoned to death because of being adulturers.
Click to expand...

Which Muslim country did you live in?
 
TagliatelliMonster

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
sooda said:
Which Muslim country did you live in?
Click to expand...
Luckily, none. My ancestors from my dad's side did though. There's a reason why the fled the country to come and live in Belgium instead.

Not that it matters.
I don't need to have lived in North Korea either to know and understand that it's not a healthy place to find yourself living in and to know about the things those poor citizens need to deal with everyday.

By the same token, I don't need to live or have lived in such countries to know and understand that shariah courts hand out extremely barbaric medieval-style punishments for things that aren't even illegal in a normal country.
 
sooda

sooda

Veteran Member
TagliatelliMonster said:
Luckily, none. My ancestors from my dad's side did though. There's a reason why the fled the country to come and live in Belgium instead.

Not that it matters.
I don't need to have lived in North Korea either to know and understand that it's not a healthy place to find yourself living in and to know about the things those poor citizens need to deal with everyday.

By the same token, I don't need to live or have lived in such countries to know and understand that shariah courts hand out extremely barbaric medieval-style punishments for things that aren't even illegal in a normal country.
Click to expand...

Murder and theft are pretty much against the law everywhere.
 
TagliatelliMonster

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
sooda said:
Murder and theft are pretty much against the law everywhere.
Click to expand...

However, no normal country has laws that results in amputation of opposite feet and hands as a punishment for being a thief.

But good job ignoring all the other stuff. Again.
You should take the blinders off.
 
ecco

ecco

Veteran Member
Faithofchristian said:
Now what does Christ Jesus mean by
"Do not not judge, and you will not be
Judge"

If you judge someone and your judgement is not righteous judgement, then Christ Jesus will judge you by the same judgement that you judge others by.
Click to expand...
There is nothing in the verse about "righteous". That's just something you are making up to suit your own agenda.
Why do you think that you know more about what Jesus said than Luke who, supposedly, was there and recorded Jesus' words firsthand?
 
ecco

ecco

Veteran Member
ecco previously...

In context, he is telling those people to not compare him to poorly to Moses.

19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? 20The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee? 21Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and ye all marvel. 22Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers; ) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man. 23If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day? 24Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.​
Did you intentionally take one verse out of context to suit your agenda? Or are you ignorant of its meaning in the context of Jesus' entire comment?​
Faithofchristian said:
Are you ignorant yourself, It's very plain to see and understand what Christ Jesus is speaking about and referring to.

Christ Jesus was using the Sabbath day as example, to show people that if they do judge someone to make sure that they do it by righteous judgement and not by the appearance.
Click to expand...

Please give a detailed explanation of how Jesus was "using the Sabbath day as an example".

It's quite clear that he was comparing his laws to the laws of Moses. That something happens on the Sabbath is incidental to the story. He is saying that his laws are righteous.
 
F

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
ecco said:
There is nothing in the verse about "righteous". That's just something you are making up to suit your own agenda.
Why do you think that you know more about what Jesus said than Luke who, supposedly, was there and recorded Jesus' words firsthand?
Click to expand...

It seems your having a hard time in staying up with the program.

When Christ Jesus said " Judge not, that you be not Judged"

If you judge someone to accused them falsely, then your going to be judge according how you falsely accused them in your judgement of them.

Judgement and righteous judgement go hand in hand.
To judge someone It has to be done by righteous judgement.

If it's not done by righteous judgement, then it's falsely accusing them in your judgement.

However if to what you say, to judge someone is wrong, then why did the Lord God say to Moses to tell the people of Israel to Judge their neighbour.

Leviticus 19:15--"You shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: You shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt you judge thy neighbour"

Now that's amazing, you say not to judge, but then the Lord God said, but in righteousness shalt you judge your neighbour.

If a person Judges another person, then that judgement better not be in any means in judging them in falsely accusing them in anyway.
 
ecco

ecco

Veteran Member
Faithofchristian said:
It seems your having a hard time in staying up with the program.

When Christ Jesus said " Judge not, that you be not Judged"

If you judge someone to accused them falsely, then your going to be judge according how you falsely accused them in your judgement of them.

Judgement and righteous judgement go hand in hand.
To judge someone It has to be done by righteous judgement.

If it's not done by righteous judgement, then it's falsely accusing them in your judgement.

However if to what you say, to judge someone is wrong, then why did the Lord God say to Moses to tell the people of Israel to Judge their neighbour.

Leviticus 19:15--"You shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: You shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt you judge thy neighbour"

Now that's amazing, you say not to judge, but then the Lord God said, but in righteousness shalt you judge your neighbour.

If a person Judges another person, then that judgement better not be in any means in judging them in falsely accusing them in anyway.
Click to expand...
You have shown, once again, that you are one of those religious people who pick and choose which verses to accept and which to reject.
You have shown, once again, that you are one of those religious people who interpret verses as they see fit in order to further their agenda.

If you feel that you can know the intent of the writers better than the writers themselves, that is your burden.
 
H

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
1) you don't have to assume that today's humans are the same as Adam and Eve, in terms of DNA composition. Scientists found Neanderthal genes inside humans. We are not pure offspring of early humans. So your comparing our today's animal like sexual desire with that of Adam is not necessarily valid.

2) You seems to imply that 100% humans in a society will have to have more than one wife? This is not the case even in today's world! Your this assumption is moot!

Christianity is about how Adam and Even created innocent, tempted to break the Law and being put to a place where the devil rules. "Original sin" is more of a result of "devil rules" such that it's said (in Christianity) that everyone is under the devil's captivity. Arguing otherwise is straw man.
 
Last edited:
IndigoChild5559

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
ecco said:
You have shown, once again, that you are one of those religious people who pick and choose which verses to accept and which to reject.
You have shown, once again, that you are one of those religious people who interpret verses as they see fit in order to further their agenda.

If you feel that you can know the intent of the writers better than the writers themselves, that is your burden.
Click to expand...
Look, I'm a Jew, so I have no dog in this race. And I have to tell you that in this particular case, our Christian friend is correct in his analysis.

The full text of Matthew 7:1-4 is plainly about hypocrisy, not judging.
1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?

In other gospel writings, Jesus is reputed to have supported judging, but simply to do so in a just manner:

Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly. John 7:24
 
ecco

ecco

Veteran Member
Hawkins said:
1) you don't have to assume that today's humans are the same as Adam and Eve, in terms of DNA composition. Scientists found Neanderthal genes inside humans. We are not pure offspring of early humans. So your comparing our today's animal like sexual desire with that of Adam is not necessarily valid.

2) You seems to imply that 100% humans in a society will have to have more than one wife? This is not the case even in today's world! Your this assumption is moot!

Christianity is about how Adam and Even created innocent, tempted to break the Law and being put to a place where the devil rules. "Original sin" is more of a result of "devil rules" such that it's said (in Christianity) that everyone is under the devil's captivity. Arguing otherwise is straw man.
Click to expand...
Where is it said, "(in Christianity) that everyone is under the devil's captivity"?
 
ecco

ecco

Veteran Member
IndigoChild5559 said:
Look, I'm a Jew, so I have no dog in this race. And I have to tell you that in this particular case, our Christian friend is correct in his analysis.

The full text of Matthew 7:1-4 is plainly about hypocrisy, not judging.
1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?​
Click to expand...
​

Yes, I fully agree that those verses are about the hypocrisy of judging. It is not about judging someone righteously or otherwise as Faithofchristian would have us believe.


IndigoChild5559 said:
In other gospel writings, Jesus is reputed to have supported judging, but simply to do so in a just manner:
Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly. John 7:24
Click to expand...

The KJV version is:
19Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? 20The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee? 21Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and ye all marvel. 22Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers; ) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man. 23If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day? 24Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.​

Both you and Faithofchristian took one verse out of the context of the entire paragraph and came to the same conclusion. Read the entire subject matter; verses19-24.

Then re-read my comments to Faithofchristian.
 
sooda

sooda

Veteran Member
Hawkins said:
1) you don't have to assume that today's humans are the same as Adam and Eve, in terms of DNA composition. Scientists found Neanderthal genes inside humans. We are not pure offspring of early humans. So your comparing our today's animal like sexual desire with that of Adam is not necessarily valid.

2) You seems to imply that 100% humans in a society will have to have more than one wife? This is not the case even in today's world! Your this assumption is moot!

Christianity is about how Adam and Even created innocent, tempted to break the Law and being put to a place where the devil rules. "Original sin" is more of a result of "devil rules" such that it's said (in Christianity) that everyone is under the devil's captivity. Arguing otherwise is straw man.
Click to expand...

Oh please.. You don't actually believe that??
 
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