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The Standard of Truth + False Signs

H

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
joe1776 said:
Why? The practice of slavery involved the ownership of people against their will to be free then as it does now.
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Why can't you just figure out simple things by yourself?

Slavery is everywhere outside God's realm. Literally everyone is enslaved by Satan. Slavery is absent only within God's realm. Planet earth however is lying outside God's realm ever since Adam was driven out of Eden.

That said. God doesn't forbid secular slavery (in a nutshell, earth is for all kinds of human sins to display and to be destroyed once and for all), but it forbids Hebrews enslaving Hebrews. The ancient Hebrew slave system is a labor system trying to help out the poor.

Leviticus 25:42 (NIV)
Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves.

God's conscience is about how souls should be saved. Slavery remains the conscience or the lack thereof of humans. God saves the same souls through the worst human establishments such as slavery.
 
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H

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
Sky Rivers said:
I've been wondering lately if the Bible is truly without error. It's been translated many times and these translations different. If it's not without error, how can it be a standard or measure for truth? How can the liars and those deceived be found out? If there is no measure for what is true, anyone can claim anything about God?

Furthermore if the Bible IS without error or sufficiently preserved to be correct, even in other languages, or even in just the AKJV, are Bible-Believing Christians making this book into an idol?

While I currently do accept scripture as my measure of truth, I only do so because I lack an acceptable alternative. If the Holy Spirit should be what I test all things by (the Word of God), how can I (without great signs which I should not seek) know if I am measuring by the Holy Spirit or if I'm simply deceived? Do I trust visions? Feelings? Dreams? Do any of us? Perhaps all the signs stopped and all signs today are false (as prophecy states)? How then can we measure anything by the Holy Spirit of we don't even have signs to know he indwells us?
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You need to stay with the church. That's why it's important to identity a good church with your sense developed through the Bible and your relationship with God through the Holy Spirit.

As for the accuracy of the Bible, you need to compare it with other human documents. Humans lack the capability of keep documents especially before the invention of papers. God on the other hand, doesn't need super humans for His Word to convey.
 
Sky Rivers

Sky Rivers

Active Member
Hawkins said:
Why can't you just figure out simple things by yourself?

Slavery is everywhere outside God's realm. Literally everyone is enslaved by Satan. Slavery is absent only within God's realm. Planet earth however is lying outside God's realm ever since Adam was driven out of Eden.

That said. God doesn't forbid secular slavery (in a nutshell, earth is for all kinds of human sins to display and to be destroyed once and for all), but it forbids Hebrews enslaving Hebrews. The ancient Hebrew slave system is a labor system trying to help out the poor.

Leviticus 25:42 (NIV)
Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves.

God's conscience is about how souls should be saved. Slavery remains the conscience or the lack thereof of humans. God saves the same souls through the worst human establishments such as slavery.
Click to expand...

Well said!
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
I believe the Bible has errors and sometimes a translator will make an error but by and large the Bible is reliable as a source of Truth.

I have had the Holy Spirit give a prophecy that was fulfilled so that gives me confidence but for many years I tried to rely on signs and found them to be unreliable. I can sympathize with someone going through that because I d
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
joe1776 said:
Bear in mind that this piece of advice comes from a non-believer.

In order to judge the Bible's accuracy, you need to have a way of knowing the truth about something and then see what the Bible has to say about it. It happens that we all know the truth on moral issues provided our minds are unbiased. For example, what does your conscience tell you about slavery? Is it morally wrong to own people as property? Ask and answer questions like this and then see what the Bible has to say about it.

Should women be treated equally to men?
Should homosexuals be treated equally to heterosexuals?
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I believe it is a false assumption that everyone has the truth.
 
ChristineM

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Sky Rivers said:
I don't go to a church. Although, I'm part of The Body of Christ, the only Church which matters to me. However, that's not a building.
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By church i didnt mean building but religious institution

But does you religious institution bestow on you the right to judge the morality of another church?
 
Father Heathen

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Sky Rivers said:
Your church doesn't decide what's moral and what isn't.
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But ancient, primitive savages do? Their church and yours are both self appointed middlemen who presume to speak on God's behalf, as we're the aforementioned bronze age goat herders who founded the religion. Real morality comes from reason and compassion, not arbitrary superstition.
Consider this; would god have gifted us with brains if he expected us to forgo their use?
 
sooda

sooda

Veteran Member
ManSinha said:
I am hardly the most appropriate person to comment - but a casual google search reveals a plethora of articles on the subject. Take a look here - as part of my hobby I was looking for a statement comparable to something found in my scripture and there are subtle nuances even as you look through between NIV, ESV and NLT. While someone may argue that the underlying message is maintained rightfully so - but the degree of emphasis changes. Now this is just english - once gets to Aramaic and Ancient Greek - I have no idea what if anything was altered partly due to what the translators knew and partly due to unconscious bias.

There is also some literature out there that several articles / manuscripts were destroyed as it had teachings / material not considered to be supportive of the main ideas in the bible - perhaps @sooda can elaborate - so your point is well taken. Not sure I have a good answer for you at the moment
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Look at the Book of Daniel.. written across a period of 500 years.

All these "books" were edited and redacted and added to.. Prophecy was written AFTER the fact.
 
Sky Rivers

Sky Rivers

Active Member
Father Heathen said:
But ancient, primitive savages do? Their church and yours are both self appointed middlemen who presume to speak on God's behalf, as we're the aforementioned bronze age goat herders who founded the religion. Real morality comes from reason and compassion, not arbitrary superstition.
Consider this; would god have gifted us with brains if he expected us to forgo their use?
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Ancient, primitive, savages? Please explain.

My church? My church isn't a place, it's a people and we don't presume to speak on God's behalf. I will leave that to the Pope.

God created us with the ability to reason and people reason differently. As for brains, everyone alive (excluding the brain-dead) uses their brains.
 
joe1776

joe1776

Well-Known Member
Hawkins said:
Why can't you just figure out simple things by yourself?

Slavery is everywhere outside God's realm. Literally everyone is enslaved by Satan. Slavery is absent only within God's realm. Planet earth however is lying outside God's realm ever since Adam was driven out of Eden.

That said. God doesn't forbid secular slavery (in a nutshell, earth is for all kinds of human sins to display and to be destroyed once and for all), but it forbids Hebrews enslaving Hebrews. The ancient Hebrew slave system is a labor system trying to help out the poor.

Leviticus 25:42 (NIV)
Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves.

God's conscience is about how souls should be saved. Slavery remains the conscience or the lack thereof of humans. God saves the same souls through the worst human establishments such as slavery.
Click to expand...
If our topic was politics, you'd be guilty of "spinning the truth." You do that first by using your own definition of the word: "Slavery is everywhere outside God's realm. Literally everyone is enslaved by Satan..." As you well know, that's not the kind of slavery we are discussing.

Then, you spin the truth also by cherry-picking one Bible quote (out of more than 100 on the issue) that says the Israelites must not be sold as slaves. Why is this quote relevant in our discussion about slavery which was once commonly accepted world-wide?

You asked me: Why can't you just figure out simple things by yourself?

Here's the simple truth: Slavery was once an immoral practice widely accepted in the world. Today, slavery is not legal in any country in the world. And the Bible, with more than 100 mentions of slavery did not condemn the practice as immoral in any of them.
 
sooda

sooda

Veteran Member
Sky Rivers said:
A lot of Christians will disagree with you on this.
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Do you believe in astrology? How about a global flood? You believe in fortunetellers?

Prophecy is more about reminding people of an important truth that about seeing into the future.

Vaticinium ex eventu - Wikipedia

As we see in Daniel 7:2–11:39, especially Daniel 11, the Book of Daniel utilizes vaticinium ex eventu, by its seeming foreknowledge of events from Alexander's conquest up to the persecution of Antiochus IV in the summer of 164 BCE.[2] Modern scholarship considers the stories of the first half legendary in origin, and the visions of the second the product of anonymous authors in the Maccabean period (2nd century BCE).[3] Its inclusion in Ketuvim (Writings) rather than Nevi'im (Prophets) was likely because it appeared after the canon for those books had closed, and the dominant view among Jews and scholars is that Daniel is not in any case a prophetic book but an apocalypse. However, in the Christian canon Daniel is listed under the Major Prophets.
 
joe1776

joe1776

Well-Known Member
Muffled said:
I believe that is simply your opinion. That doesn't make it rue.
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Of course it's my opinion and of course the fact that it's my opinion doesn't make it right. So what?

My opinion is based on the definition of the word "slavery." The definition is based on the common usage of the word.

(Collins) Slavery is the system by which people are owned by other people as slaves.
 
Sky Rivers

Sky Rivers

Active Member
sooda said:
Do you believe in astrology? How about a global flood? You believe in fortunetellers?

Prophecy is more about reminding people of an important truth that about seeing into the future.

Vaticinium ex eventu - Wikipedia

As we see in Daniel 7:2–11:39, especially Daniel 11, the Book of Daniel utilizes vaticinium ex eventu, by its seeming foreknowledge of events from Alexander's conquest up to the persecution of Antiochus IV in the summer of 164 BCE.[2] Modern scholarship considers the stories of the first half legendary in origin, and the visions of the second the product of anonymous authors in the Maccabean period (2nd century BCE).[3] Its inclusion in Ketuvim (Writings) rather than Nevi'im (Prophets) was likely because it appeared after the canon for those books had closed, and the dominant view among Jews and scholars is that Daniel is not in any case a prophetic book but an apocalypse. However, in the Christian canon Daniel is listed under the Major Prophets.
Click to expand...

Astrology? Not as it's practiced today. Reading the signs in the stars? Yes, I accept that. A world-wide flood? I accept that. Fortune-tellers? Define what you mean by fortune-tellers, please.
 
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