Are Christians Animistic?

Ellen Brown said:

According to the stories, about half Cherokee. Years ago I tried to learn from them, but they are so hounded by those who want a handout that it is very hard. I gave up. We were told, when I was little, to never mention being 'Injun'.

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I can't order you what to do, it's your life. But what I would do as an adult, is go back and be more persistent. I would present myself as "I am Name daughter of Name, daughter of Name, and I would like to learn more about the spiritual heritage of my People." But that's just what *I* would do.

Katzpur said:

Although most Christians are not animistic, I definitely am. It's something I don't talk about much, for fear of ridicule, but I've just always had a feeling that everything has a spirit.

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"And He answered and said unto them, “I tell you that if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.” Luke 19:40

IndigoChild5559 said:

I can't order you what to do, it's your life. But what I would do as an adult, is go back and be more persistent. I would present myself as "I am Name daughter of Name, daughter of Name, and I would like to learn more about the spiritual heritage of my People." But that's just what *I* would do.

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Thank you. I am 72, no car, and not sure I want to drive any more. Riding bike is fine, but I do not want to hurt anyone with my car. Wakan Tanka (God) will provide.

IndigoChild5559 said:

Modern Christianity has incorporated Enlightenment thinking, meaning that except for the necessary ideas of God, angels, and demons, only the material world exists. But that is not traditional Catholicism. Catholicism before the Englishtenment had a "sacramental world view" which was akin to Animism. They believed i.e. that the sun and planets each had angels. St. Francis of Assisi talked about "Brother Sun and Sister Moon" and preached to the birds.

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This is still the worldview held by the Orthodox. We may not preach to birds, but there is definitely room for the idea that all of creation praises God and that man has communion with God, his fellow man, and all his fellow creatures. Our Akathist of Thanksgiving, written in the 1940's, expresses this all very poetically.

dingdao said:

Well, Yea. Forced conversion happened all over North and South America.

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And Australia.

Ellen Brown said:

...and a purported Atheist, though I do not believe they exist. He may recognize Wakan Tanka?

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Don't want to derail this thread, but hard to let this slip by.
Any interest in a PM convo on this?

In terms of the OP, I have a pretty good little library of Native American material. Focus is more Lakota/Cheyenne, but I have a range, including on laws, etc.
Let me know if I can help!

lewisnotmiller said:

Don't want to derail this thread, but hard to let this slip by.
Any interest in a PM convo on this?

In terms of the OP, I have a pretty good little library of Native American material. Focus is more Lakota/Cheyenne, but I have a range, including on laws, etc.
Let me know if I can help!

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Yes, I would welcome a PM conversation on this.

lewisnotmiller said:

Don't want to derail this thread, but hard to let this slip by.
Any interest in a PM convo on this?

In terms of the OP, I have a pretty good little library of Native American material. Focus is more Lakota/Cheyenne, but I have a range, including on laws, etc.
Let me know if I can help!

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Count me in.

lewisnotmiller said:

Don't want to derail this thread, but hard to let this slip by.
Any interest in a PM convo on this?

In terms of the OP, I have a pretty good little library of Native American material. Focus is more Lakota/Cheyenne, but I have a range, including on laws, etc.
Let me know if I can help!

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I wonder how Lakota folk are about Two Spirits?

Ellen Brown said:

I wonder how Lakota folk are about Two Spirits?

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Hmm..well, I'm working from memory here for now.
I doubt I have too much information on the Lakota in that context, but I have some very detailed first hand stuff on the Cheyenne.

I'll check it when I'm at home next.

One of the problems with some of the material I have is that it's fairly old. First hand accounts and documentation are great, but the cultural and gender bias means some concepts are more fully explored or viewed as central, compared to how we might assess such things now.

(Eg. I've always found Life Among the Indians by George Catlin interesting because of that, but it's horrendous as a reference book...!!)

lewisnotmiller said:

Hmm..well, I'm working from memory here for now.
I doubt I have too much information on the Lakota in that context, but I have some very detailed first hand stuff on the Cheyenne.

I'll check it when I'm at home next.

One of the problems with some of the material I have is that it's fairly old. First hand accounts and documentation are great, but the cultural and gender bias means some concepts are more fully explored or viewed as central, compared to how we might assess such things now.

(Eg. I've always found Life Among the Indians by George Catlin interesting because of that, but it's horrendous as a reference book...!!)

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In doing some brief research, it appears as if the Lakota have ideas similar to the Navajo about Two Spirits. In the article I read it pointedly um "pointed out" that Native American Two Spirits are not necessarily gay but have spirits of both genders. I'm somewhat cranky about the definition, and think that the LGBT Organizations hijacked the term in a deceptive manner, and caused a lot of pain in the process.

A native American two spirit would be free to show either their male or female spirit and no surgical alterations would be needed.

Ellen Brown said:

In doing some brief research, it appears as if the Lakota have ideas similar to the Navajo about Two Spirits. In the article I read it pointedly um "pointed out" that Native American Two Spirits are not necessarily gay but have spirits of both genders. I'm somewhat cranky about the definition, and think that the LGBT Organizations hijacked the term in a deceptive manner, and caused a lot of pain in the process.

A native American two spirit would be free to show either their male or female spirit and no surgical alterations would be needed.

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Not my strong area, but I seem to recall some differentiation between masculine feminine or feminine masculine was made (in addition to make or female) and that people weren't restricted to a single defined gender role, but would instead blend roles, basically.

To answer the question posed in the title to your thread, no Christians are not Animistic. Animism is more of a belief than a religion. Animist's be of the opinion that all things have a spirit or soul, including animals, plants, rivers, mountains, iow's*, all objects in the natural world included. Some native Americans call this kind/type of soul a 'Manitou'. There's more information to support Christians are not Animist, but the fact that by definition a Christian can not be a Animist without breaking one of Gods most binding commandants should be enough.

* ….The expression; 'iow's' means 'in other words'.

Katzpur said:

Although most Christians are not animistic, I definitely am. It's something I don't talk about much, for fear of ridicule, but I've just always had a feeling that everything has a spirit.

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No offence intended but I can see why being a Mormon with their strict adherence to tradition such non-Christian concepts would not be acceptable but the church. I am not a traditional Christian, and have been told that my teaching is that of a false prophet or a cultist so my opinion might be just that an opinion. I can tell you that no traditional Christian church I know of teaches that a Christian can be an Animist. That said I too feel some inanimate objects and lower forms of life such as plants possess some kind of soul or force. Is this force natural or supernatural? I don't know! The difference is I do not worship any object except for the Hebrew God. The key word is worship. I do not know of any bible teaching etc that forbids the belief that inanimate objects or lower life forms have a lifeforce etc. we just can not worship them. To complicate matters a little more there are 'churches', or cults that teach 'Christian Animism’ doctrines.

MrMrdevincamus said:

No offence intended but I can see why being a Mormon with their strict adherence to tradition such non-Christian concepts would not be acceptable but the church. I am not a traditional Christian, and have been told that my teaching is that of a false prophet or a cultist so my opinion might be just that an opinion. I can tell you that no traditional Christian church I know of teaches that a Christian can be an Animist. That said I too feel some inanimate objects and lower forms of life such as plants possess some kind of soul or force. Is this force natural or supernatural? I don't know! The difference is I do not worship any object except for the Hebrew God. The key word is worship. I do not know of any bible teaching etc that forbids the belief that inanimate objects or lower life forms have a lifeforce etc. we just can not worship them. To complicate matters a little more there are 'churches', or cults that teach 'Christian Animism’ doctrines.

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You evidently misunderstood me, although that may have been partly my fault. I absolutely do not worship anything other than God (i.e. the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God who created our universe and who reigns supreme over everyone and everything). I merely stated that I believe that everything He created has a spirit of sorts, not just human beings. That's actually pretty much in line with LDS doctrine in that we believe that God created everything spiritually before He created it temporally. While that may not be taught by traditional Christianity, it certainly doesn't contradict anything the Bible has to say about the creation.

Katzpur said:

Although most Christians are not animistic, I definitely am. It's something I don't talk about much, for fear of ridicule, but I've just always had a feeling that everything has a spirit.

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I don't know if it is 'animistic..." but yes, I believe, as we Mormons have all been taught, that everything has a spirit. Everything was created spiritually before it was created physically? It is perhaps seen by others that animists worship those spirits, and attribute spirits to events, like earthquakes, volcano eruptions, etc., and I certainly don't any more than I would attribute a separate spirit to a hug, or worship a water balloon splat.

It's not something I shout about, either, but it is something that is pretty central to our cosmology, I think. Therefore, we might be called 'animist,' if the term is restricted to 'everything has a spirit,' and not add 'so we worship them and try to get their favor, etc.,"

I think it mostly means that "All Dogs Go to Heaven" isn't just a catchy book title to us.

Katzpur said:

You evidently misunderstood me, although that may have been partly my fault. I absolutely do not worship anything other than God (i.e. the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God who created our universe and who reigns supreme over everyone and everything). I merely stated that I believe that everything He created has a spirit of sorts, not just human beings. That's actually pretty much in line with LDS doctrine in that we believe that God created everything spiritually before He created it temporally. While that may not be taught by traditional Christianity, it certainly doesn't contradict anything the Bible has to say about the creation.

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Yes I did misunderstand you, sorry about that ! Personally, the reason I broke away from the traditional Church was politics. That and the lack of many churches assisting those who desperately need it with real help. Still even those churches are needed even if they simply nudge someone closer to God.

Ellen Brown said:

I have been reading about the history and culture of the Navajo People (Dine), and along the way have learned more about my own heritage. In trying to understand the meaning of what I am learning, one source said that the Navajo are Animists. So, when I read the definition to that, it feels to me that many/most religions approach Animism.

In reading about the culture in Shiprock, New Mexico, it was surprising to find the presence of at least six Christian churches in that town. What I see coincides with what other Native American told me. He said that in his little town in Northern Idaho, he attended a Church school, and when he asked about his own heritage, they would punish him. It was not until later in life as an adult that he began to learn.

In this study, a pilgrimage of sorts, there has been healing and a sense of worth that was not before. As to Animism, still reading.

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Animism is an open. Topic so until that's morel clearly understood then one can't say.

Ellen Brown said:

Perhaps organized religion is the 'Great Tribulation'? I have heard lurid tales about extremist Muslims forcing conversion at the threat of beheading.

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Yes, it's the same thing. Not a fan of organized religion personally, it tends to bring out the worst in people as a price and what do we get for it? Some unity and much division. Same extends to politics...

Ellen Brown said:

Suspecting that true belief is a very personal journey and that perhaps pressure from others to conform to 'their' definition of it may be the action of the deceiver?

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It's all a journey, some people just want everyone to stay at one bus stop and don't want anyone to leave.

Christianity, as taught by Jesus, believed in the Holy Spirit, which is an inner voice; within our unconscious psyche. It is part of us.

Animists believe in wide range of outer spirit voices, such as from the many spirits in nature. Animistic is a type of projection, of what is considered, by Christianity, to come from the inside of the person.

A good analogy is art. A good work of art will induce a reaction in the audience. The feeling and reaction is not within the art. The art is more like a trigger, that can induce the internal reactions we feel. The animistic person would assume the feeling starts in the art, and therefore the art is more than just a trigger. They believe they get a contact buzz with the spirit of the art.

In modern marketing, animistic principles are used to endow sales objects with the various spirits of the free market. These spirits help to get the consumer part with their money.

The fancy sports car is marketed; conditioned, as being able to make the young male a sexually desirable object, for attracting females. By himself, he is only Joe, but once inside driving the car, the free market spirit of the car, will change who he is. This is a conditioned spirit, where many people are induce by the Ad campaign, to play along; project the spirit, for it to be effective.

The pet rock was nothing but a rock, that was marketed to be alive like a pet. It came with a certificate of authenticity. This gave it an animistic spirit. This was a fad and all the children of a certain age needed to have one or more. It was a conditioned spirit, by a marketing campaign, which combined with a prestige affect, due to limited supply and high demand.

It was very hard for animistic religions to advance in science, since one was not allowed to closely examine the abode of the projected spirits. You could not reason with the children that the rock was nothing more than an over priced rock. They could not objectively examine it, due to the conditioned projection. Animistic living was not a solid foundation for first world cultures. It is too easy to fabricate with marketing psychology.