Why I Could Never Be a Christian (or Muslim)

Jollybear said:

You would hate that which created you? And if this God did torture rebels in hell forever, you think youd know better then him, a mere ant in comparison in mind and size?

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The relative size or intelligence/knowledge of a being makes no difference on its ability to discern what it believes is right from wrong. Two questions to easily put this idea into perspective:

1. Do you always make sure you are more intelligent or knowledgeable or "larger in size" than someone, or something you make a judgment about?
2. If an alien race with vastly superior technology showed up and judged humanity as unworthy of life would you accept their judgment of us, and just lay down and die before their might?

**mod edit**

A Vestigial Mote said:

The relative size or intelligence/knowledge of a being makes no difference on its ability to discern what it believes is right from wrong. Two questions to easily put this idea into perspective:

1. Do you always make sure you are more intelligent or knowledgeable or "larger in size" than someone, or something you make a judgment about?
2. If an alien race with vastly superior technology showed up and judged humanity as unworthy of life would you accept their judgment of us, and just lay down and die before their might?

**mod edit**

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God would know whats perfectly right because his knowledge would be perfect, having made literally all things and existed from all eternity.

Jollybear said:

God would know whats perfectly right because his knowledge would be perfect, having made literally all things and existed from all eternity.

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What evidence do you have that supports this claim? You can't rely on the Bible due to its countless flaws. This does not stand logically on its own so why do you believe this?

Jollybear said:

God would know whats perfectly right because his knowledge would be perfect, having made literally all things and existed from all eternity.

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Note how you didn't answer my questions. Typical.

Guess what though? I'll respond to your baseless claim above, because I am not so scared as some. You can produce no verifiable evidence of God, therefore you cannot know that He has perfect knowledge, nor can you know He has existed "from all eternity," nor can you know that He "made literally all things." You presuppose these things, but have absolutely no realistic basis for claiming such things as "knowledge." I presume that the only things you can do are point to The Bible, and point to the preponderance of people who believe as you do and have taught you - but that is all you have. Nothing inter-subjectively verifiable. No demonstrations of actual utility that can be produced and reproduced. No physically-presenting "thing" that can be studied, and absolutely no way to offer study of anything "non-physical." You're holding an empty bag, and telling people it contains magic beans that can only be seen or felt if you already believe that they are there.

A Vestigial Mote said:

Note how you didn't answer my questions. Typical.

Guess what though? I'll respond to your baseless claim above, because I am not so scared as some. You can produce no verifiable evidence of God, therefore you cannot know that He has perfect knowledge, nor can you know He has existed "from all eternity," nor can you know that He "made literally all things." You presuppose these things, but have absolutely no realistic basis for claiming such things as "knowledge." I presume that the only things you can do are point to The Bible, and point to the preponderance of people who believe as you do and have taught you - but that is all you have. Nothing inter-subjectively verifiable. No demonstrations of actual utility that can be produced and reproduced. No physically-presenting "thing" that can be studied, and absolutely no way to offer study of anything "non-physical." You're holding an empty bag, and telling people it contains magic beans that can only be seen or felt if you already believe that they are there.

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The evidence is in apparitions, ESP, OBEs, NDEs and miracle testimony.

Jollybear said:

The evidence is in apparitions, ESP, OBEs, NDEs and miracle testimony.

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• Apparitions are unverifiable and cannot be studied basically by definition.
• If ESP had ever been shown to be a consistently reproduceable phenomenon in even a single case we'd never hear the end of it from the likes of you.
• OBEs and NDEs are, by definition, subjective, and cannot be verified by an outside party. Besides this, we're talking about the mind of the subject necessarily being in states within which thought-based testimony cannot be trusted.
• "Miracle testimony" is also usually unverifiable and can't be reproduced, and in the cases I know of where verification has been possible, the "miracle" has been debunked. I would also argue that many things claimed to be "miracles" are not of overwhelming significance to any but the people involved, which introduces a huge amount of bias to these situations from the get-go.

You're simply not going to answer my questions, are you? If not, I'll simply assume that it is because you realize I am correct - it doesn't matter your standing or your comparison to another thinking/judging agent. Anyone is able to make judgments about any other being/action/item/thing at any time, and their judgment "counts," even if only to themselves.

Therefore, I judge God, and judge Him harshly. He isn't worth a single mote of the ethereal "something" He presents (or doesn't present) Himself within. He is certainly free to come correct my opinion if He feels so inclined.

A Vestigial Mote said:

• Apparitions are unverifiable and cannot be studied basically by definition.
• If ESP had ever been shown to be a consistently reproduceable phenomenon in even a single case we'd never hear the end of it from the likes of you.
• OBEs and NDEs are, by definition, subjective, and cannot be verified by an outside party. Besides this, we're talking about the mind of the subject necessarily being in states within which thought-based testimony cannot be trusted.
• "Miracle testimony" is also usually unverifiable and can't be reproduced, and in the cases I know of where verification has been possible, the "miracle" has been debunked. I would also argue that many things claimed to be "miracles" are not of overwhelming significance to any but the people involved, which introduces a huge amount of bias to these situations from the get-go.

You're simply not going to answer my questions, are you? If not, I'll simply assume that it is because you realize I am correct - it doesn't matter your standing or your comparison to another thinking/judging agent. Anyone is able to make judgments about any other being/action/item/thing at any time, and their judgment "counts," even if only to themselves.

Therefore, I judge God, and judge Him harshly. He isn't worth a single mote of the ethereal "something" He presents (or doesn't present) Himself within. He is certainly free to come correct my opinion if He feels so inclined.

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I disagree with your assensement of the above.

Also, no, i dont realize your correct.

Hubert Farnsworth said:

...a god that tortures people forever. ....

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What makes you to think that Bible God tortures people?

Hubert Farnsworth said:

I am technically agnostic about the claims of Christianity and Islam. I don't know if they are true or not, but of course I think they are highly unlikely to be true. But even if someone could convince me that one of these religions were true, I still would not convert to either of them. For instance, even if I were convinced with 100% certainty that Jesus died and rose from the dead, I still could not be a Christian. Similarly, even if I were convinced with 100% certainty that Mohammed was a prophet of God, I could not be a Muslim. Here is why:

In order to be a Christian or Muslim, it is not only belief that is necessary. It is also required that the adherents genuinely love the god of the religion. And given that the Christian and Muslim gods are said to send non-adherents to hell, where they are tortured for eternity, I could never love the god of Christianity, or the god of Islam. Now it is quite easy to pretend to love a god out of fear of the god. For instance, if the Christian or Muslim god was not all-knowing and could not see my motives, it is possible that I would worship and obey it out of fear for my own well-being, while deep down I would hate it, in much the same way as a prisoner of war or slave would worship and obey its captor while still hating him deep down. However, these acts of worship would be entirely fake, and an all-knowing god could see right through them. There is absolutely no amount of mental gymnastics, or BS rationalizing about "justice" and "sins against a perfect god" that I could ever do to get myself to love a god that tortures people forever. If such a being existed, I would hate it deeply, passionately, and with every fiber of my being, and that being would see right through my actions and know that I hate it. So, even if a case could be made that the claims of Christianity or Islam were true, I could never be a Christian or Muslim, because I would hate the god.

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And your point was?

Hubert Farnsworth said:

I am technically agnostic about the claims of Christianity and Islam. I don't know if they are true or not, but of course I think they are highly unlikely to be true. But even if someone could convince me that one of these religions were true, I still would not convert to either of them. For instance, even if I were convinced with 100% certainty that Jesus died and rose from the dead, I still could not be a Christian. Similarly, even if I were convinced with 100% certainty that Mohammed was a prophet of God, I could not be a Muslim. Here is why:

In order to be a Christian or Muslim, it is not only belief that is necessary. It is also required that the adherents genuinely love the god of the religion. And given that the Christian and Muslim gods are said to send non-adherents to hell, where they are tortured for eternity, I could never love the god of Christianity, or the god of Islam. Now it is quite easy to pretend to love a god out of fear of the god. For instance, if the Christian or Muslim god was not all-knowing and could not see my motives, it is possible that I would worship and obey it out of fear for my own well-being, while deep down I would hate it, in much the same way as a prisoner of war or slave would worship and obey its captor while still hating him deep down. However, these acts of worship would be entirely fake, and an all-knowing god could see right through them. There is absolutely no amount of mental gymnastics, or BS rationalizing about "justice" and "sins against a perfect god" that I could ever do to get myself to love a god that tortures people forever. If such a being existed, I would hate it deeply, passionately, and with every fiber of my being, and that being would see right through my actions and know that I hate it. So, even if a case could be made that the claims of Christianity or Islam were true, I could never be a Christian or Muslim, because I would hate the god.

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Where do you get the idea that God tortures people forever?

Hubert Farnsworth said:

I am technically agnostic about the claims of Christianity and Islam. I don't know if they are true or not, but of course I think they are highly unlikely to be true. But even if someone could convince me that one of these religions were true, I still would not convert to either of them. For instance, even if I were convinced with 100% certainty that Jesus died and rose from the dead, I still could not be a Christian. Similarly, even if I were convinced with 100% certainty that Mohammed was a prophet of God, I could not be a Muslim. Here is why:

In order to be a Christian or Muslim, it is not only belief that is necessary. It is also required that the adherents genuinely love the god of the religion. And given that the Christian and Muslim gods are said to send non-adherents to hell, where they are tortured for eternity, I could never love the god of Christianity, or the god of Islam. Now it is quite easy to pretend to love a god out of fear of the god. For instance, if the Christian or Muslim god was not all-knowing and could not see my motives, it is possible that I would worship and obey it out of fear for my own well-being, while deep down I would hate it, in much the same way as a prisoner of war or slave would worship and obey its captor while still hating him deep down. However, these acts of worship would be entirely fake, and an all-knowing god could see right through them. There is absolutely no amount of mental gymnastics, or BS rationalizing about "justice" and "sins against a perfect god" that I could ever do to get myself to love a god that tortures people forever. If such a being existed, I would hate it deeply, passionately, and with every fiber of my being, and that being would see right through my actions and know that I hate it. So, even if a case could be made that the claims of Christianity or Islam were true, I could never be a Christian or Muslim, because I would hate the god.

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You would hate that which created you? And if this God did torture rebels in hell forever, you think youd know better then him, a mere ant in comparison in mind and size?

Also I THINK christianity is true and I THINK your interpretation of hell being eternal torture is false.

Hows that?

1213 said:

What makes you to think that Bible God tortures people?

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loverofhumanity said:

Where do you get the idea that God tortures people forever?

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Mark 9:43

2 Peter 2:4

Mark 9:45

Matthew 18:9

/E Surah 18:29

Surah 25:12-14

Jollybear said:

Also, no, i dont realize your correct.

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Maybe answer my original questions then? Sheesh.

A Vestigial Mote said:

Maybe answer my original questions then? Sheesh.

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Your questions are basically, how do i know my views are true?

To be general and to the point, heres how.

1, intelligent design.
2, NDEs, aspeasally the veridical NDEs.
3, remote viewing or ESPs.
4. Apparitions
5, miracle testimony.

You deny these, but very unjustifiably.

ManSinha said:

Mark 9:43

2 Peter 2:4

Mark 9:45

Matthew 18:9

/E Surah 18:29

Surah 25:12-14

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It just astounds me how many interpret spiritual languages so literally. These Books are not novels and not meant to be read literally but meditated upon.

One meaning of hell is to turn away from God’s counsels such as love and unity then we suffer the consequences of having a prejudiced, spiteful and unhappy world in many, many respects.

For instance by not embracing the oneness of humanity certain nations are deprived of resources and a greater gap develops between rich and poor creating instability.

Drug addiction, suicides, alcoholism, domestic violence, wars, terrorism, gun violence and so on are these not ‘hells on earth’ we ourselves have created by deliberately ignoring God’s counsels?

In the Holy Books I believe God is warning us that we are consigning ourselves to the hells of unhappiness, misery, disunity, war, poverty and things like these if we choose to ignore His Ways of love and brotherhood.

We reap what we sow.. So the world wars weren’t hells? The NZ and now Sri Lanka massacres are not hells of our own making?

We say we don’t need God today and that our things and wealth is enough and look how the world is descending into a hell of our own making?

All God is doing is trying to warn us off harming ourselves so the language used is very harsh but said out of great love because God wants us to be happy and live in comfort, prosperity and peace.

There are lots of people living in a hell today. The hell of war or the hell of poverty or of being oppressed.

Try and understand that many, not all passages in the Holy Books are symbolic and have no literal meanings. Heaven and hell is also described as to be near or far from God.

Holy Books are not novels. There is immeasurable spiritual significance and hidden meanings in every passage but in this age we have lost the art of being able to understand spiritual truths so tend to interpret everything literally.

We need to meditate on these passages to explore and discover the priceless pearls of hidden meanings in the ocean of God’s Word.

loverofhumanity said:

Drug addiction, suicides, alcoholism, domestic violence, wars, terrorism, gun violence and so on are these not ‘hells on earth’ we ourselves have created by deliberately ignoring God’s counsels?

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That is by ignoring common sense - god has nothing to do with it - in fact some of the terrorism is carried out in the name of god - get your facts straight
And there may be a genetic predisposition to some issues such as alcoholism or suicides / depression or drug addiction as your friend @adrian009 may be able to tell you - who has the honor of creating those genetic issues? God? certainly humans do not yet get to choose their genes.

And if god is all knowing - why provide messages that are not straightforward but can be twisted to have more than one meaning?

ManSinha said:

That is by ignoring common sense - god has nothing to do with it - in fact some of the terrorism is carried out in the name of god - get your facts straight
And there may be a genetic predisposition to some issues such as alcoholism or suicides / depression or drug addiction as your friend @adrian009 may be able to tell you - who has the honor of creating those genetic issues? God? certainly humans do not yet get to choose their genes.

And if god is all knowing - why provide messages that are not straightforward but can be twisted to have more than one meaning?

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God created us as spiritual beings so addresses us in spiritual language. If we have lost that art it’s not God’s fault. It’s not for Him to address us in the gutter language that we have descended into but for us to raise our standards.

If you’ve studied the Quran you would know that terrorism and premeditated murder are absolutely forbidden in many passages.

I believe that If all humanity chose to obey God’s laws of love and unity we would live in peace now but instead most follow religious leaders who teach exclusivism and superiority not God’s Word or Holy Book which teaches to love all.

Baha’is too believe in the Quran yet where is terrorism or war in the Baha’i world community? It is clear to me that these man made substitutes for happiness come from the emptiness we have when we aren’t spiritual.

The Baha’i concept of man is that we are spiritual beings and only when we lead spiritual lives can we be truly happy.

I used to drink and gamble and tried 6 times to commit suicide when I was a non Baha’i and against God and religion.

Now I’ve been a Baha’i for 45 years have not had one alcoholic drink in that time (45 years) in obedience to Baha’u’llah and have not gambled in that time again in obedience and out of love for Baha’u’llah and I’ve been married for 40 years and have a stable, happy married life thanks to following Baha’u’llah’s laws, and have an inner peace, happiness and contentment and joy.

Baha’u’llah gave me all these things, priceless gifts one cannot buy. While people desperately try and fill the empty spiritual vacuum left by turning away from God they can’t find comfort in drugs, alcohol, gambling or pleasures and that is because they do not feed their souls with godly food. Just like our bodies if you deprive them of nourishment will wither become sick and die so too the spirit of man by turning away from God becomes ill and afflicted with hate, prejudices, disunity, inner conflict and unhappiness.

By starving the spirit of the Word of God and trying to use artificial substitutes such as drugs and alcohol to bring happiness only results in injury to ourselves and doesn’t work.

I’ve tried Baha’u’llah’s teachings and they work and bring joy and happiness and I am living proof of it.

While you may denounce these teachings have you tried implementing any of Baha’u’llah’s teachings to see for yourself whether they work or not?

Is loving all humanity and seeing all people whether religionists or not as a part of one human family not needed today in view of recent events? This is the main teaching of Baha’u’llah to see all humanity as brothers and sisters. Don’t we need this today?

loverofhumanity said:

While you may denounce these teachings have you tried implementing any of Baha’u’llah’s teachings to see for yourself whether they work or not?

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What I "denounce" @loverofhumanity is your naked proselytizing - I do not *need* Baha'u'llah's teachings - whatever the heck they may be

I have sufficient guidance from Guru Gobind Singh on how to live one's life - if you care to take a look beyond the bubble you have enclosed yourself in - you will find that he has no peer in an exemplary life setting an example for the entire humanity. The only entity that raised his disciples up to his level during his lifetime - not just purporting to "provide guidance" but actually doing it.

Waho Waho Gobind Singh Aape Gur Chela
Wonderous! Wonderous! Gobind Singh
He is the Guru and the disciple!

Read up on some independent sources not just Wikipedia or worse Bahakipedia - and then we can discuss if you like - else like I said to you before "don't quote Baha'i stuff at me" it is equivalent to an insult and may be considered proselytizing.

ManSinha said:

What I "denounce" @loverofhumanity is your naked proselytizing - I do not *need* Baha'u'llah's teachings - whatever the heck they may be

I have sufficient guidance from Guru Gobind Singh on how to live one's life - if you care to take a look beyond the bubble you have enclosed yourself in - you will find that he has no peer in an exemplary life setting an example for the entire humanity. The only entity that raised his disciples up to his level during his lifetime - not just purporting to "provide guidance" but actually doing it.

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Your religion is your matter but I always respect that and it is your right to differ. If your beliefs work for you then that’s great. But don’t Sikhs accept other religions as well? Maybe you could enlighten me about your beliefs?

loverofhumanity said:

But don’t Sikhs accept other religions as well?

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Respect - yes

Accept - no

There is a huge difference - brush up on it if you will

We do not expect "everyone to see the light of our ways" as some of your fellow people have said - while we welcome anyone who wants to join in or even stick to their own way of life / worship we absolutely do not care to be preached to or proselytized to - make note - this is the final time I shall be nice about it