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Did Jesus die and rise from the dead?

W

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Riders said:
Being a trickster does not count as proof There is some proof in Josephus account that a guy named Jesus lived, I submit to that but the trickster is not proof.

Proof is proof he was crucified and risen.
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On the claims of black magic and deceiver
Historical Jesus - Wikipedia
Other considerations outside Christendom include the possible mentions of Jesus in the Talmud. The Talmud speaks in some detail of the conduct of criminal cases of Israel whose texts were gathered together from 200–500 CE. Bart Ehrman says this material is too late to be of much use. Ehrman explains that "Jesus is never mentioned in the oldest part of the Talmud, the Mishnah, but appears only in the later commentaries of the Gemara."[33]:67-69 Jesus is not mentioned by name, but there is a subtle attack on the virgin birth that refers to the illegitimate son of a Roman soldier "Panthera" (Ehrman says, "In Greek the word for virgin is parthenos"), and a reference to Jesus' miracles as "black magic" learned when he lived in Egypt (as a toddler). Ehrman writes that few contemporary scholars treat this as historica''

sounds like allot of damage control to me
 
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Audie

Audie

Veteran Member
InChrist said:
Maybe they did witness some kind of plates, I doubt it, but I can't be sure, I really don't doubt that Joseph Smith was visited by an angel called Moroni (a demon posing as an angel of light), since he Joseph was heavily into occult practices and a prime candidate for demonic deception. Having come out of Mormonism myself in the past I am all the more aware how easily we as humans can be deceived to believe a lie. All the more reason I see the scriptures as necessary for discernment and to test all teachings, philosophies, etc. by to determine the truth.
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SO CLOSE but you veer away, cannot do it.

"All the more I see how scrip can be just
as fanciful as BoM" but you cannot do it.

You are not determining the truth, btw,
you have already decided.
 
Audie

Audie

Veteran Member
whirlingmerc said:
Actually even some Jewish sources agree Jesus did miraculous things like healing but was a trickster.

And there is also a claim that yes the body was missing but a gardener named Judas moved it.

Inadvertently the enemies of Jesus become witnesses since as they said about Lady Macbeth 'methinks she protests too much!"
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As mark twain noted, for a fact you need proof,
but for a miracle, any sort of evidence will do.
 
InChrist

InChrist

Free4ever
Riders said:
Thats right the bible does NOT say he was bleeding to death which makes the bible wrong. cant raise him from the dead with his wounds and all as it said without him bleeding to death.His body was chopped meat.

Either God raised him with a new body which would make Jesus not the same person or he raised with his wounds and him bleeding all over the place it does not make any scientific sense for Jesus to be walking around with his dead crucified body.

God is suppose to be the God of life not death, the fact that the bible says God raised Jesus with his crucified dead body is a sick thing for the bible to say. Its amoral.
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Do you have any understanding about the meaning resurrection at all? The whole point of Jesus being resurrected is for the sake of humanity and the promise of new, eternal life in glorified bodies that will never hurt or die. This transformation of dead bodies will apply to all believers whether they were beheaded, died of cancer, were mangled in a car wreck, fell off cliff, were eaten by a shark or whatever. God is beyond science and the limited understanding of humanity.


However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, madei of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, wel shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” 1 Cor. 15:46-54
 
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whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Audie said:
SO CLOSE but you veer away, cannot do it.

"All the more I see how scrip can be just
as fanciful as BoM" but you cannot do it.

You are not determining the truth, btw,
you have already decided.
Click to expand...


It was a bit too convenient that the indecipherable Egyptian Hieroglyphics the plates were written with just disappeared because ... we can read hieroglyphics now

Not credible to me
 
W

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
whirlingmerc said:
On the claims of black magic and deceiver
Historical Jesus - Wikipedia
Other considerations outside Christendom include the possible mentions of Jesus in the Talmud. The Talmud speaks in some detail of the conduct of criminal cases of Israel whose texts were gathered together from 200–500 CE. Bart Ehrman says this material is too late to be of much use. Ehrman explains that "Jesus is never mentioned in the oldest part of the Talmud, the Mishnah, but appears only in the later commentaries of the Gemara."[33]:67-69 Jesus is not mentioned by name, but there is a subtle attack on the virgin birth that refers to the illegitimate son of a Roman soldier "Panthera" (Ehrman says, "In Greek the word for virgin is parthenos"), and a reference to Jesus' miracles as "black magic" learned when he lived in Egypt (as a toddler). Ehrman writes that few contemporary scholars treat this as historica
Click to expand...
Audie said:
As mark twain noted, for a fact you need proof,
but for a miracle, any sort of evidence will do.
Click to expand...


Hardly, any evidence will do... I reject the mormon evidence partly due to the nature of it.

Ringing with too much spiritism and as you may or may not know the first mormon temple was.... wait for it... a masonic lodge... which by the way is a bit occult

Going by Jesus words the judgement is whether a person loved light or darkness and so there is enough going on that a person is loving the light or loving the darkness by saving faith or rejection of it
 
Audie

Audie

Veteran Member
InChrist said:
Why do you find it so absurd? Science and/or human ability to understand everything about life, death, or this universe is ever changing as new information as knowledge is discovered. What was thought to be absurd 20, 30, 50, or 200 hundred years ago is accepted and understood today. I don't see what is so absurd about realizing that human knowledge is limited because humans are finite while a Creator knowledge is infinite and some things He has revealed which are beyond our understanding.
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Funny you would bring that up, for lo, as knowedge
increases, it becomes plain stupid to say "god" sent a
flood, or did the six day poof, red sea, etc.

And, no advances in science are going to make
"Dog ate homework" believable.

You need to get up earlier and think harder to
make a case with me, that figuirn' of yours
is pretty lame.
 
Audie

Audie

Veteran Member
whirlingmerc said:
It was a bit too convenient that the indecipherable Egyptian Hieroglyphics the plates were written with just disappeared because ... we can read hieroglyphics now

Not credible to me
Click to expand...

I agree it is a ridiculous story. Millions believe it.
Millions believe your too -convenient jesus story.
 
Audie

Audie

Veteran Member
whirlingmerc said:
Hardly, any evidence will do... I reject the mormon evidence partly due to the nature of it.

Ringing with too much spiritism and as you may or may not know the first mormon temple was.... wait for it... a masonic lodge... which by the way is a bit occult

Going by Jesus words the judgement is whether a person loved light or darkness and so there is enough going on that a person is loving the light or loving the darkness by saving faith or rejection of it
Click to expand...

Reference is to the miracles one such as you
choose to believe. It is the same for any religion.

OUR miracles are true and credible, yes, eminently
sane and credible.

Its all them other religions got phony
miracles.
 
W

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Audie said:
Reference is to the miracles one such as you
choose to believe. It is the same for any religion.

OUR miracles are true and credible, yes, eminently
sane and credible.

Its all them other religions got phony
miracles.
Click to expand...

I'm not aware of any miracles Joseph Smith did like healing, raising the dead, walking on water

But being associated with the occult and owning a jupiter talisman does not impress me (not positively at least)

And dying in a gunfight? I have to pass on that
 
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Riders

Riders

Well-Known Member
InChrist said:
Do you have any understanding about the meaning resurrection at all? The whole point of Jesus being resurrected is for the sake of humanity and the promise of new, eternal life in glorified bodies that will never hurt or die. This transformation of dead bodies will apply to all believers whether they were beheaded, died of cancer, were mangled in a car wreck, fell off cliff, were eaten by a shark or whatever. God is beyond science and the limited understanding of humanity.


However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, madei of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, wel shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” 1 Cor. 15:46-54
Click to expand...

Thats the same cop out reply to every question and every debate concerning Christianity that Christians can not answer. God is a mystery God can do anything, its mysterious............whatever that's the same answer to every question you guys can not answer. Here some proof that he did not rise.

He said people would be doing greater miracles then he did, I don't see dead people rising all over the place like they should be.I don't see any miracles.
 
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whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Riders said:
Thats the same cop out reply to every question and every debate concerning Christianity that Christians can not answer. God is a mystery God can do anything, its mysterious............whatever that's the same answer to every question you guys can not answer. Here some proof that he did not rise.

He said people would be doing greater miracles then he did, I don't see dead people rising all over the place like they should be.I don't see any miracles.
Click to expand...

Miracles are signs pointing to a truth. Its no surprise the greatest concentration of miracles are around the Moses and Jesus to emphasize important truths

If miracles were commonplace they would not mean so much
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
whirlingmerc said:
In all the stories of Luke when they spoke of eyewitnesses they were indeed eyewitnesses, many of whom were women, an unlikely group to make up a story about. But Luke being a medical doctor also has the most medical details which is a bit of internal evidence supporting it was indeed written by a medical person

And the eyewitnesses involved things like healing, raising the dead, feeding thousands, things one could see and touch and not at all like the claims of Joseph Smith
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You need to read the intro to Luke. If you can understand the context he says that the tales came from witnesses, not that he spoke with any. That means he is relying on hearsay.
 
InChrist

InChrist

Free4ever
Audie said:
SO CLOSE but you veer away, cannot do it.

"All the more I see how scrip can be just
as fanciful as BoM" but you cannot do it.

You are not determining the truth, btw,
you have already decided.
Click to expand...
Now, I have decided. I know that Jesus is alive and the Bible is reliable.
But I did not initially just decide. Initially, I searched, and praying and kept asking God to show me where is the truth and what is the truth. I had been through enough "religions" and really did not want to go through another fake experience and waste of time. Through various circumstances, over a period of quite awhile God answered my questions clearly, personally. It was not in a church or group setting. I was only with my husband. When I realized that Jesus was who He claimed to be and especially when I realized my real need of Him as a Savior, my understanding and perception of everything changed literally overnight. My husband was also born again sometime during that same time period, although we never vocalized the exact moment or said any out loud prayer individually or together. The scriptures which in the past were so confusing, became like an open book. The theme throughout from Genesis to Revelation was so clear and made complete sense. Not only that God immediately changed and healed a relationship with someone who had become so estranged that there was no friendship left...and within two weeks this person was saved by Jesus. too. The peace and forgiveness which enveloped our lives was beyond our ability and even our desire.
 
InChrist

InChrist

Free4ever
Riders said:
Thats the same cop out reply to every question and every debate concerning Christianity that Christians can not answer. God is a mystery God can do anything, its mysterious............whatever that's the same answer to every question you guys can not answer. Here some proof that he did not rise.

He said people would be doing greater miracles then he did, I don't see dead people rising all over the place like they should be.I don't see any miracles.
Click to expand...
Why don't you simply try reading the Bible and ask Jesus to show you whether it is true or not. Jesus preformed all kinds of miracles, yet people still refused to believe. Miracles are not enough if some does not want to know the truth.
 
Riders

Riders

Well-Known Member
whirlingmerc said:
Miracles are signs pointing to a truth. Its no surprise the greatest concentration of miracles are around the Moses and Jesus to emphasize important truths

If miracles were commonplace they would not mean so much[/QUOTE

Miracles are also reported with the same zeal and evidence within the Jewish religion, the B'ahai, the Hindu religion, Mormons, Christian Science,,,,,,,,,,,,how do you explain those away?Miracles are common place, there are lots of writings by different religions on miracles.
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