Theist's the Hard Truth

Rational Agnostic · Apr 21, 2019

Nakosis said:
If you were born to a devout Hindu family in Mumbai India, or to a pious Christian family in Atlanta Georgia, would you be a convinced Muslim today? Of course, you cannot answer that question for certain but, statistically there is an extremely high probability that you would be a Hindu or a Christian and you would believe Muslims have got almost everything wrong.

Hindus and Christians can ask themselves a similar question and they will get a similar result.

The hard truth is, you are not certain your faith is true because you have determined it is true through evidence and reason; you are certain it is true because you have been TRAINED to believe it is true, and to behave as though it is true.

The hardest truth of all is, with respect to your faith, you have more in common with a performing dog than with a rational, intelligent human being.
The hardest truth of all - Atheist Alliance International

It's annoy a Theist week, or, on the road to becoming a militant atheist.

So the idea is that you believe because you were train to believe. Can you convince yourself or someone else otherwise?

As a kid many get trained to think in terms of a God. Even if raised as an atheist it's hard to escape being taught what God is, even as someone else's belief.

So you convert from one religion to another, still thinking in terms of God. Or maybe as a atheist convert to some belief, thinking in terms of a God you were taught not to believe in.

I'm not saying atheists don't have their own issues with being trained in how to think. but, does the belief in God persist because it's is how we were trained to think?

This isn't always the case, but it usually is. Some people choose a belief different from their parents' belief, but it is not common.

Augustus · Apr 22, 2019

charlie sc said:
'm not trying to defend them, but on that page they explained, "Given the times in which they lived, some on this list might not have called themselves atheists, but all expressed at least significant doubt about the efficacy of religion and/or the existence of all-controlling deities and wrote something clever or revealing about their position." Therefore, they are saying some are theists. I can appreciate what they're saying here because I've read of some philosophers/scientists getting barred or alienated after releasing their books or ideas.

Fair enough, didn't read that. Not sure which of those 2 criteria Kepler qualifies on though. He was devoutly Christian and, like Newton, saw God's role as creator as a fundamental underpinning of his Natural Philosophy: "God does nothing by chance".

It does seem reflective of the mindset that religion was an impediment to the emergence of modern science, rather than something which played a significant role in it though.

charlie sc said:
Is there anything in particular I can see where they claim the stuff you mentioned in the previous post?

Have you never noticed that such views happen to be remarkably common among New Atheists?

Read any thread that covers these subjects here or any atheist forum, watch atheist stuff on youtube, etc. I don't have the desire to find them though.

Here's one from the Atheists Alliance magazine on their website that follows the formula of presenting false/controversial historical theories as unquestioned fact and framing them in the most negative sense possible:

Around two millennia ago, the
Romans, then European bosses,
adopted Christianity as the state
religion and imposed it on all of
their conquered territories. Here's a
tip: when you impose a doctrine
on a population, it's always easier
to merge it with existing customs
that way you annoy fewer people.
So, Saturnalia was snatched and
morphed into Christmas. In the
same way, the spring festival was
commandeered for the crucifixion.
(Note how sweet it is that Jesus'
execution event once belonged to
Eostre, Goddess of New Life!).

charlie sc · Apr 22, 2019

Augustus said:
Have you never noticed that such views happen to be remarkably common among New Atheists?

From the negative side of atheists, I've noticed POE's(some funny and some horrible), trolls, angry atheists, strong atheists against any idea even suggesting god(s), and even paranoid/conspiracy theorist atheists. Similarly, I have great respect for feminism not this new age feminism that demand special privileges. Equally, when Marx was alive, he had to write a lengthy reply - Critique of the Gotha Programme - to one of his followers, because they were totally misunderstand the philosophy and turning it into something oppressive. You can sum it up as, "what's this bull?" What I'm curious about is whether their weird beliefs are core to what they believe or is it the minority/majority going on a tangent?

Augustus said:
Read any thread that covers these subjects here or any atheist forum, watch atheist stuff on youtube, etc. I don't have the desire to find them though.

Forums, as nice as they are, may not be good at measuring core beliefs of an institution. They're a mishmash of individuals talking about what they believe in.

Augustus said:
Here's one from the Atheists Alliance magazine on their website that follows the formula of presenting false/controversial historical theories as unquestioned fact and framing them in the most negative sense possible:

Around two millennia ago, the
Romans, then European bosses,
adopted Christianity as the state
religion and imposed it on all of
their conquered territories. Here's a
tip: when you impose a doctrine
on a population, it's always easier
to merge it with existing customs
that way you annoy fewer people.
So, Saturnalia was snatched and
morphed into Christmas. In the
same way, the spring festival was
commandeered for the crucifixion.
(Note how sweet it is that Jesus'
execution event once belonged to
Eostre, Goddess of New Life!).

I found this as rather funny and not something to take too seriously. I do find it curious why and how Jesus became inserted in pagan rituals. The logic here is sound, but is it necessarily the case? No. Frankly, I think it's best to avoid any group without clear objectives

Nakosis · Apr 22, 2019

74x12 said:
I believe you probably had real experiences with spiritual entities whether you knew it or not. But, that doesn't mean they are who they claimed to be.

Many spirits claim to be Jesus or God and are not.

Yes, and one starts to question all experiences. For me I can't trust them even though they may seem very real.

Nakosis · Apr 22, 2019

atanu said:
It is nice that we can at least understand each other. Before leaving this point, I will like to point out that both ‘material' and 'non-material' are words, born of materialistic paradigm.

Sure, which I'd be happy to change if I found good reason to. Maybe I'll be surprised to find that you're right, but I'll probably never get around to telling you so.

Audie · Apr 22, 2019

Nakosis said:
Yes, and one starts to question all experiences. For me I can't trust them even though they may seem very real.

The way it works is*, lots of people have lots of
"experiences", and the more stress of divers sorts,
the more likely the experiences are.

For one who has found the True Faith, it might
be temporarily disconcerting to find that others
have had similarly intense experiences that were
altogether contrary to the True Faith.

Now, these persons are committed to the idea that
the experiences are as real as anything else,
perhaps more so.

So, if it is a real experience but if it is not in
agreement with the True Faith then, what
can it be but the work of daemons.

Diabolically clever.

*bet you figured this out way before I ever did.

atanu · Apr 22, 2019

Nakosis said:
Sure, which I'd be happy to change if I found good reason to. Maybe I'll be surprised to find that you're right, but I'll probably never get around to telling you so.

Ha ha. Why so?

But, it is not important to tell others, since there maybe no other.

74x12 · Apr 22, 2019

Nakosis said:
Yes, and one starts to question all experiences. For me I can't trust them even though they may seem very real.

I understand that sentiment completely, trust me. It is hard to trust any spirits for me as well. Because, I've unfortunately dealt with deceptive spiritual entities that claimed to be Jesus/God as well claiming to be good angels sent from God. They'll claim anything so long as people will believe it. They seem to be opportunistic, emotional parasitical types. Playing on people's own fears, bias, and emotions.

However, I do trust that people can know the true God/Jesus. It's not the same for me at all. God is not as "hands on" as these entities and God is a lot more subtle; but I know He's there and God is guiding me. And, He's always good and never changes or contradicts the things He's revealed already.

God is love and if you've felt the true God; then you know true love. It's not selfish. I've felt the strongest love for everyone I saw when God baptized me in the holy Spirit. Not even a drug like ecstasy could really replicate the feeling. It may make you feel love, but I think a carnal, sensual variety. Not like the pure love of God.

God is first and fore-mostly holy which means set apart. So without vices or any weakness. Just purity.

I've also at times experienced sadness of other people suffering through the holy Spirit.

And that's not to say that God doesn't show Himself to people in dreams, visions etc. But, I would say those occurrences are probably rare. The scriptures tell us to have discernment and test the spirits whether they are of God or not.

All in all, my experiences with these "entities" has made me much more knowledgeable and understanding of the difference between them and God.

People have been having experiences with various entities since ancient times. The ancients simply thought of them as gods/goddesses. And, yes they did have sex with these spirits at times. You can read some of the old cuneiform tablets of kings bragging about having sex with some goddess ... (Just read up on incubus and succubus)

It's real. These things really happened; but we need to understand them better.

Spirits from God are holy and without any temptation or vice/sin attached. They're also consistent and not changing from good to bad or confusing people.

74x12 · Apr 22, 2019

Audie said:
The way it works is*, lots of people have lots of
"experiences", and the more stress of divers sorts,
the more likely the experiences are.

For one who has found the True Faith, it might
be temporarily disconcerting to find that others
have had similarly intense experiences that were
altogether contrary to the True Faith.

Now, these persons are committed to the idea that
the experiences are as real as anything else,
perhaps more so.

So, if it is a real experience but if it is not in
agreement with the True Faith then, what
can it be but the work of daemons.

Diabolically clever.

*bet you figured this out way before I ever did.

Well, demons are real and you can only deny it so long before it's in your face and they admit it to you and talk about how smart/great they are and how great satan is. And how strong they are and able to deceive people. And how much they despise humans and how weak/stupid they think people are for being easily duped.

Audie · Apr 22, 2019

74x12 said:
Well, demons are real and you can only deny it so long before it's in your face and they admit it to you and talk about how smart/great they are and how great satan is. And how strong they are and able to deceive people. And how much they despise humans and how weak/stupid they think people are for being easily duped.

I certainly can deny it. And you most certainly cannot
demonstrated it.

Having seen your credibility in action elsewhere,
I am disinclined to think you have any here, either.

AND, btw, you in no way addressed the actual
content of my post, which is that you among
others think you got the "real" thing, and those
others got deceived...just the same thing they
think of you. How odd is that?

I am kind of sorry for you, btw, and I say this
sincerely, that you live with these fears and
delusions.

Nakosis · Apr 22, 2019

74x12 said:
I understand that sentiment completely, trust me. It is hard to trust any spirits for me as well. Because, I've unfortunately dealt with deceptive spiritual entities that claimed to be Jesus/God as well claiming to be good angels sent from God. They'll claim anything so long as people will believe it. They seem to be opportunistic, emotional parasitical types. Playing on people's own fears, bias, and emotions.

However, I do trust that people can know the true God/Jesus. It's not the same for me at all. God is not as "hands on" as these entities and God is a lot more subtle; but I know He's there and God is guiding me. And, He's always good and never changes or contradicts the things He's revealed already.

God is love and if you've felt the true God; then you know true love. It's not selfish. I've felt the strongest love for everyone I saw when God baptized me in the holy Spirit. Not even a drug like ecstasy could really replicate the feeling. It may make you feel love, but I think a carnal, sensual variety. Not like the pure love of God.

God is first and fore-mostly holy which means set apart. So without vices or any weakness. Just purity.

I've also at times experienced sadness of other people suffering through the holy Spirit.

And that's not to say that God doesn't show Himself to people in dreams, visions etc. But, I would say those occurrences are probably rare. The scriptures tell us to have discernment and test the spirits whether they are of God or not.

All in all, my experiences with these "entities" has made me much more knowledgeable and understanding of the difference between them and God.

People have been having experiences with various entities since ancient times. The ancients simply thought of them as gods/goddesses. And, yes they did have sex with these spirits at times. You can read some of the old cuneiform tablets of kings bragging about having sex with some goddess ... (Just read up on incubus and succubus)

It's real. These things really happened; but we need to understand them better.

Spirits from God are holy and without any temptation or vice/sin attached. They're also consistent and not changing from good to bad or confusing people.

I'll agree we need to understand this better. For me I decided to become skeptical of these experiences and they stopped. Instead of picking one to pursue I decided to not invest into any belief.

If it turns out there is a God, I'll just let them judge me for who I am for better or worse. If I'm judge unworthy, I assume such a God would be the one to pass judgement. Who am I to argue.

As I see it, I can't be anything other than I am. Seems kind of insincere to me to subscribe to one belief just to appease God if it doesn't feel right to me.

Nakosis · Apr 22, 2019

Audie said:
The way it works is*, lots of people have lots of
"experiences", and the more stress of divers sorts,
the more likely the experiences are.

For one who has found the True Faith, it might
be temporarily disconcerting to find that others
have had similarly intense experiences that were
altogether contrary to the True Faith.

Now, these persons are committed to the idea that
the experiences are as real as anything else,
perhaps more so.

So, if it is a real experience but if it is not in
agreement with the True Faith then, what
can it be but the work of daemons.

Diabolically clever.

*bet you figured this out way before I ever did.

I thought I knew the true faith, or truth.

The last "message" I got from "God" was, it doesn't matter what we choose to believe, we are free to believe whatever we what. We are all loved and we can return to God whenever we want, there is no hurry, God will accept us for who we are at the time of our choosing.

Of course why should anyone believe that amongst all of the people claiming to know God's will? Lots of people with a lot of certainty but certainty guarantees nothing.

Audie · Apr 22, 2019

Nakosis said:
I'll agree we need to understand this better. For me I decided to become skeptical of these experiences and they stopped. Instead of picking one to pursue I decided to not invest into any belief.

If it turns out there is a God, I'll just let them judge me for who I am for better or worse. If I'm judge unworthy, I assume such a God would be the one to pass judgement. Who am I to argue.

As I see it, I can't be anything other than I am. Seems kind of insincere to me to subscribe to one belief just to appease God if it doesn't feel right to me.

You ever wrestle back and forth, cant decide, on some
difficult question?

Buy this house of that, go to this grad school of that,
invest here, or there.

I guess we all have. My experience is that I will stew
like that, yes no no yes back and forth. Then, after
days maybe, it will come to me with great clarity
and conviction, GO THOU (

) TO A!
It is like from outside myself, when I am not even thinking
about it.

BUT, see, I am not so easy. Back I go to worrying.
Then, later, it is GO THOU TO B!

So, it is something like one part of you mind getting
fed up with another part being such a jerk, and trying
to settle it.

In China, I asked a mormon missionary how he
can possibly believe such an absurd story as
that of J Smith and the gold books.

So he said, well, he grew up in a mormon family but as
a teen, ha had his doubts. So, he prayed to god.
like is it true? Day after day, I guess, as he told it,
it was a bid deal for him.

After a week or so, same thing. It came to him.
YES (sayeth the Lord the God) verily, yes, all
True.

Now, you know that if he'd just kept a-prayin' that
after a while it would be-
NO, it is a buncha hooey!!!

( but that would of course have been one of them
daemons we hear about, trying to deceive him.)

Audie · Apr 22, 2019

Nakosis said:
I thought I knew the true faith, or truth.

The last "message" I got from "God" was, it doesn't matter what we choose to believe, we are free to believe whatever we what. We are all loved and we can return to God whenever we want, there is no hurry, God will accept us for who we are at the time of our choosing.

Of course why should anyone believe that amongst all of the people claiming to know God's will? Lots of people with a lot of certainty but certainty guarantees nothing.

We do see some amusing mental gymnastics taking
place as they explain how ti happened that they
are so uniquely lucky.

Nakosis · Apr 22, 2019

Audie said:
You ever wrestle back and forth, cant decide, on some
difficult question?

Buy this house of that, go to this grad school of that,
invest here, or there.

I guess we all have. My experience is that I will stew
like that, yes no no yes back and forth. Then, after
days maybe, it will come to me with great clarity
and conviction, GO THOU ( ) TO A!
It is like from outside myself, when I am not even thinking
about it.

BUT, see, I am not so easy. Back I go to worrying.
Then, later, it is GO THOU TO B!

So, it is something like one part of you mind getting
fed up with another part being such a jerk, and trying
to settle it.

In China, I asked a mormon missionary how he
can possibly believe such an absurd story as
that of J Smith and the gold books.

So he said, well, he grew up in a mormon family but as
a teen, ha had his doubts. So, he prayed to god.
like is it true? Day after day, I guess, as he told it,
it was a bid deal for him.

After a week or so, same thing. It came to him.
YES (sayeth the Lord the God) verily, yes, all
True.

Now, you know that if he'd just kept a-prayin' that
after a while it would be-
NO, it is a buncha hooey!!!

( but that would of course have been one of them
daemons we hear about, trying to deceive him.)

I suspect the source for Gods and demons, inspired revelation is our subconscious mind. Most seem to feel however the subconscious mind is a minor brain function that can't act autonomously.

Me, I see it the other way around. Conscious awareness is the minor brain function subservient to the machinations of the subconscious mind.

Audie · Apr 22, 2019

Nakosis said:
I suspect the source for Gods and demons, inspired revelation is our subconscious mind. Most seem to feel however the subconscious mind is a minor brain function that can't act autonomously.

Me, I see it the other way around. Conscious awareness is the minor brain function subservient to the machinations of the subconscious mind.

And for the bipolar among others, intense
hallucinations of daemons etc are common
as dirt.

In the day, it was a given that the daemons
were real.

Nakosis · Apr 22, 2019

atanu said:
Ha ha. Why so?

But, it is not important to tell others, since there maybe no other.

I suspect by the time anything is know by me either of us maybe something or someone else. Our current interaction is relatively fleeting.

Augustus · Apr 22, 2019

charlie sc said:
I found this as rather funny and not something to take too seriously. I do find it curious why and how Jesus became inserted in pagan rituals. The logic here is sound, but is it necessarily the case?

Well first of all it has to be established that that's what actually happened, which is certainly not a given. It's also possible that pagan rituals got attached to a Christian festival that happened to be around about the same date. As people converted they brought old habits with them.

If we start with Easter, this was dated based on Jewish Passover, hence it being called some form of Pascha (from Hebrew: Pesach) in many languages. It was celebrated long before the Roman Empire became Christian.

The idea that it is an appropriation from Eostre makes little sense given the unimportance of English/German in Early Christianity which are the only languages which use a similar form. At best it's an etymology for Easter, although even this is highly questionable as it's only supported by a single source (Bede) who is somewhat speculating rather than asserting a fact.

Christmas is less clear, and no one knows for certain why 25 Dec was chosen, although there is a good chance it predates Constantine.

The idea that it is an appropriation of Saturnalia has no actual evidence to support it other than they are at a similar time of year. Saturnalia was a week long festival that started around 17 Dec so also not an exact match.

It's possible that this link only became common due to anti-Catholic polemics after the Reformation (somewhat ironically, Protestant polemics were also a contributory factor in the rise of the 'conflict thesis' myth so beloved of New Atheists)

‘‘If any here, demaund, by whom these Saturnalia, these disorderly Christmasses & Stageplayes were first brought in among the Christians? I answer that the paganizing Priests and Monks of popish (the same with the heathen Rome) were the chiefe Agents
of this worke.’’ William Prynne (17th C.)

There's the idea it was based on Sol Invictus celebrations on 25 Dec is also likely anachronistic as his cult is likely overstated in its importance and there is little evidence for there being a major festival in his honour on 25 Dec.

There's the 'calculation theory' that 25 Dec is exactly 9 months after the Annunciation on 25 March, which makes sense, yet, again, has minimal historical source support.

Finally there is the idea that it was not on 25 Dec because of a Pagan festival, but despite this (Early Christians did try to differentiate themselves from Pagans after all).

Many cultures acknowledged the cosmological significance of the equinoxes as these are tangible events, not simply religious constructs. All of the different Paganisms were not 'appropriating' these dates from each other, they were choosing them for the same reason: because they were the equinoxes.

In this sense you get 25 Dec not as a calculated, cynical appropriation, but simply because it is the equinox (and they already had Easter at an equinox).

Shadow Wolf · Apr 23, 2019

robocop (actually) said:
The dead can still do what they want. I'm glad we don't do it for Jews or celebrities.

Don't do it for me. If I do survive death, I will haunt your entire church for eternity and I'll be far worse than Satan.
Leave my name out of your cult!

Shadow Wolf · Apr 23, 2019

Jollybear said:
All the evidence youve probably already heard, ad infinitum.

History, enecdotal NDEs, OBEs, ESPs, apparitions. Intelligent design.

History does not support life after death, NDEs and OBEs are very explainable scientifically, ESP has been very thoroughly debunked, and ID is not a scientific theory (as it begins with an assumption being true and seeks information to confirm it, and it is not falsifiable).

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