Perhaps. From what I can see on the internet the whole question looks like one of those rabbit holes the Shi'ite critics have pursued. Islamic theology is a work in progress for me and I would want to research it properly before commenting.
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Investigating Bahaullah's Book of Iqan
- Thread starter InvestigateTruth
- Start date
Perhaps. From what I can see on the internet the whole question looks like one of those rabbit holes the Shi'ite critics have pursued. Islamic theology is a work in progress for me and I would want to research it properly before commenting.
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
Sure. You can believe you proved it!
You insist that the Sacrifice of Manifestations which are explained in Iqan, is not, the atonement and sacrifice of Jesus then, while completely disregarding the fact that for example Buddha also had sacrificed many times according to the Scriptures. And though when Bahaullah makes the point that all manifestations had sacrificed, yet you insist that only Jesus did. Seems like you believe in literal interpretations of Bible! You conveniently cling to the literal interpretations of Bible, which results in none sense, so you can easily disprove the nonsense. Where did the Authors of Bible say, we are stating everything literally in the Scriptures?
I am not sure how proper interpreting the Quran, Bible and expressions such as Rebirth which is from previous scriptures is any different than referring to scriptures of the past. Interpreting requires referring to scriptures expressions and verse!
We can agree to disagree and leave it as is!
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Yes that is wise. I just know that that level of study for me will most likely not happen as I have the attention span of a hungry dog with a bowl of food.
I just see it as all connected, even the error brings us back to the Truth.
I do enjoy all the well researched answers. Might have to try it sometime.....soon
Regards Tony
siti
Well-Known Member
Its a quotation Tony - Baha'u'llah was explicitly quoting from "the Bihar" - he says so in the immediately previous paragraph.
siti
Well-Known Member
I fail to see what that has to do with it. The two key issues that have been raised in this thread are that the Iqan claims to contain "all scripture" in condensed form - and the side issue, that IT inadvertently raised whilst trying to dodge the obvious conclusion that this "all scripture" claim was untrue, that Baha'u'llah did not get his information from learning or scholars...and then you did my job for me by inadvertently selecting a couple of quotations that Baha'u'llah uses from a late 17th century hadith and misquotes proving that Baha'u'llah was dependent on the writings of mere humans for information.
As for this claimed statement of the Prophet corresponding with Jesus teaching in parables - the atonement doctrine does not depend on any of Jesus' teachings - it depends on the narrative provided by the Gospel writers and the Apostles Peter and Paul - both of whom you have declared reliable witnesses.
Jesus may have spoken in parables (according to the Bible) but he didn't speak in impossible, paradoxical and self-contradictory riddles. Baha'u'llah and the Baha'is would have done well to take a leaf out of that book.
I understand your need for every thing to have a specific proof.
I do not see it that way. To me everything ties back to a single source and that is God. This to me it all is great.
It is this Biblical passage that I see Baha'u'llah supports in the Kitab-i-iqan, over and over.
Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."
This theme is also strong in Baha'u'llah's mystical work of the seven valleys. In the valley of knowledge it is said (old translation)
"Split the atom’s heart, and lo!
Within it thou wilt find a sun.
He beholdeth justice in injustice, and in justice, grace. In ignorance he findeth many a knowledge hidden, and in knowledge a myriad wisdoms manifest. He breaketh the cage of the body and the passions, and consorteth with the people of the immortal realm. He mounteth on the ladders of inner truth and hasteneth to the heaven of inner significance. He rideth in the ark of “we shall show them our signs in and journeyeth over the sea of “until it become plain to them that (this Book) is the truth.” And if he meeteth with injustice he shall have patience, and if he cometh upon wrath he shall manifest love..."
Regards Tony
siti
Well-Known Member
What on earth are you talking about?
And BTW - that first part of your Seven Valleys quote is another example of Baha'u'llah quoting human words directly - Rumi this time I think - or one of the other Sufi poets.
Just rambling on, it is such a lovely day.
Yes Baha'u'llah quotes often from many various and obscure sources. Thus it must be easy to show where he spent so much time in study to learn and memorise all this. Or it came from an innate source.
Regards Tony
siti
Well-Known Member
Reinterpreting the Qur'an (which is what Baha'u'llah mostly does in Iqan) is not the same as making a condensed soup of "all scripture".
The fact that once for all time sin-atoning propitiatory sacrifice of Jesus is manifestly absent from Iqan is not a matter we can either agree or disagree on. It just is not there. The multiple sacrifices of multiple manifestations is clearly not the same thing at all. It just is not. There is no agree or disagree about it.
If you honestly feel that the one-off sacrifice of Jesus is included in the many sacrifices of multiple Manifestations, you have a hell of a job to do to reconcile the scriptures I listed above to that teaching. And if those scriptures are wrong, then - as I have been discussing with Adrian - the entire Gospel and the letters of both Peter and Paul are faulty. On what basis can we then trust anything in them. There is no more important and no clearer message in the Gospel than the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ and it makes no sense whatsoever to have that happening over and over again. To say otherwise is to deny the Gospel altogether. It could not be clearer as far as I can see. And its fine by me for someone to reject the Gospel altogether. What is not fine is for someone to claim that they believe the Gospel whilst at the same time denying its most important teaching - that is not just dishonest - its treachery. "Spiritual" treachery.
This is the Oneness I talk about. It is the rainbow that is seen when it refracts from white light shining through a prisim.
Each sacrifice is the same sacrifice, serving the same purpose, but we can choose to see it as another colour of the resulting rainbow.
Or we look at the foundation as to why the sacrafice is made. The story of the Bab mirrors that of Christ, so what is offered in the bible mirrors the oneness, it has much deeper meaning.
Regards Tony
siti
Well-Known Member
Sufi poetry was not "obscure" in 19th century Persia. Neither were the works of 17th century Persian clerics. Neither were Shi'i and especially Shaykhi teachings regarding the imminent re-appearance of the 12th Imam and the Qaim or Mahdi. This is the stuff of Baha'u'llah's "revelation". This is the stuff of the Iqan.
siti
Well-Known Member
Ye Gods Tony! You should leave off the Sufi poetry for a while - you're coming over all mystical!
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
You seem to be missing something. I am not saying it is false to say that only through the sacrifice of Christ, the world of humanity can be saved. No one else other than Christ, and through His sacrifice can save the world from the sin. Thus, it is only Christ that the term atonement is applicable. You need to understand that, in Bahai view, Christ, is the Spirit of God, and there is only One Spirit of God. Thus, when the Spirit of God manifested in the person of Jesus, He said, I am the only One who saves. I am the only truth. In another time, this same spirit of God manifested in the person of Buddha, and thus said, I have sacrificed my life many times to save humanity from the sin. More recently, the Spirit of God was Manifested from Bahaullah, the only one who can save the world. In Bahai view, the mistake that Christians, as well anyone else who reads bible literally is, they do not understand that The individuality of Jesus is not the One saves, but the Christ, the only Spirit of God who was manifested from Jesus is the saviour.
Thus, when we understand that All manifestations of God are indeed One person, and one spirit, we do not have any problem accepting that the atonement is applicable to all manifestations. That is exactly what Bahaullah says in the Iqan:
"...they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one being, one revelation."
siti
Well-Known Member
You're right! I'm missing the bit where he says in the Iqan "one atonement"! Perhaps you can help me to find that.
It is loud and very clear;
[Pages 161–200]"...From these statements therefore it hath been made evident and manifest that should a Soul in the “End that knoweth no end” be made manifest, and arise to proclaim and uphold a Cause which in “the Beginning that hath no beginning” another Soul had proclaimed and upheld, it can be truly declared of Him Who is the Last and of Him Who was the First that they are one and the same, inasmuch as both are the Exponents of one and the same Cause. For this reason, hath the Point of the Bayán—may the life of all else but Him be His sacrifice!—likened the Manifestations of God unto the sun which, though it rise from the “Beginning that hath no beginning” until the “End that knoweth no end,” is none the less the same sun. Now, wert thou to say, that this sun is the former sun, thou speakest the truth; and if thou sayest that this sun is the “return” of that sun, thou also speakest the truth. Likewise, from this statement it is made evident that the term “last” is applicable to the “first,” and the term “first” applicable to the “last;” inasmuch as both the “first” and the “last” have risen to proclaim one and the same Faith..."
Regards Tony
siti
Well-Known Member
...and very clearly says nothing whatsoever about atonement.
The First and the Last have proclaimed the One and the Same Faith. All their teachings are from the same source, thus the meaning of the word is simply at-one-ment, i.e., the state of being at one or being reconciled, so that atonement is reconciliation and is made much more apparent with the Message of Baha'u'llah.
Regards Tony
What are? The First, the Last, the One, and the Same Faith. Can you translate this Baha'ispeak to modern English?
siti
Well-Known Member
So you say...but there is still not one word in the Iqan that specifically relates to the the once for all time sin atoning propitiatory sacrifice of Jesus Christ in behalf of the whole world that is so clearly a central feature of the Christian Bible - is there? In his OP IT asked us for examples of teachings in other scriptures that cannot be found in the Iqan - if you can show me where the Biblical idea of propitiatory atonement appears in the Iqan then I will happily concede - all you guys have done so far is show me that you do not understand the Biblical doctrine of atonement at all. Atonement is not reconciliation - at least not from a scriptural viewpoint - it is a precursor to reconciliation (Romans 5:8; Colossians 1:22) - Christ had to die a sacrificial death (this is the atonement - the right act to correct the wrong) so that our reconciliation to God could be possible. Scripturally, this is very, very different from the sacrifices of Buddha or the Bab - and scripturally, it can only happen once (Hebrews 10:12-14). I know of no other scriptural tradition that makes such a claim. And I certainly don't see it in the general (not to say glib) discussion of the "sacrifices" of various "Manifestations" in the Iqan.
Thank you for the question. I hope I do it justice as you know my english sucks
I see this is how Jesus explained his connection with God and all other Messengers. Muhammad has confirmed the connection, the Bab and Baha'u'llah have also confirmed the teaching and also explained it in greater detail. It is the sun in the mirror explanation of all God's Messengers. The Messengers are the mirror, born in each age and God is the Sun that shines from them, one and all. They are all born of the same Holy Spirit and it is this Spirit, which is all Gods Attributes, that are the rays reflected from the mirror.
Personally I can see no greater Atonement and this is why Christ can say I am the First Messenger and I am the Last Mesenger, the Beginning and the End, the Alhpa and Omega. Names become one of our veils to seeing the same One light shining from them, One and All.
The potential of this light can also shine from each of us to a certain level, but only after we Polish our mirror. We have been born of the human spirit, which means we are born at the end of darkness, yet to clean our mirror. This is also why many that have yet to accept God can shine with many attributes, even if they do not know of the source shining from them.
Regards Tony