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Is Jesus one of the four horsemen in Revelation?

sooda

Veteran Member
Your problem is squaring this up with Nero or Vespasian being the one the "Lord of Lords", and King of Kings, and fulfilling Revelation 6:2.

Its Jesus.

2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Revelation 17:14
They will make war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will triumph over them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and He will be accompanied by His called and chosen and faithful ones."
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
The kingdom of heaven was not destroyed... and the beast did "hate" the harlot Israel.


The discussion of Daniel 7 identifies the beasts as follows:

  1. Lion = Babylonian Empire
  2. Bear = Mede-Persian Empire
  3. Leopard = Grecian Empire
  4. Dragon = Roman Empire

Your problems are many. The Roman empire was not described as a "dragon" but as "dreadful" with "large iron teeth" (Daniel 7:7). The "dragon" of Revelation 13:4 is the "authority" behind the beast. Daniel 2:35 & 44-45 is about all the above kingdoms being crushed all at the same time, and another "kingdom" being put in their place. That hasn't happened, and they still exist for an "appointed period of time" (Daniel 7:12). The "beast" with 7 heads was used in judging Israel and Judah. It was the 10 horns of the 8th head of the beast who hated the "harlot"/Jews (Revelation 17:16).
 

sooda

Veteran Member
The rider on the white horse who went out to conquer was Constantine, the 7th head of the beast of Revelation 17:11. He was sent out to conquer under the sign of the cross by Sol Invictus, the sun god, the "dragon", at the battle of Milvian Bridge in 312 AD.. He has been wearing "down the saints of the Highest One" ever since by virtue of his instituted Roman Catholic religion (Daniel 7:25). We are now in the era of the 8th head of the beast, whose power is welded by the 10 horns of said beast, whose authority is derived from the "dragon" (Revelation 13:4). Tomorrow is the Easter Sunday, the day that Constantine decreed that one is to worship the sun god in 321 AD, and the day that Constantine's Council of Nicaea decreed one is to observe Passover according to the day of the pagan god Astarte. Now tell me, what is the mark of the beast, since the beast with two horns like a lamb is Constantine?

Daniel didn't prophesy anything at all about the Catholic church.. It didn't exist.

The lamb is Jesus.

Do you understand that there was NO Daniel? There were many authors of Daniel.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Its Jesus.

2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Revelation 17:14
They will make war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will triumph over them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and He will be accompanied by His called and chosen and faithful ones."

You are confusing two different events. Constantine was told to conquer under the sign of the cross by the dragon, sun god, Sol Invictus. His Roman church is still fighting that battle against the "saints of the Highest One" (Daniel 7:25). The war of Revelation 17:14 hasn't come to an end. And the kingdoms of Daniel 2:35 have not all been crushed all at the same time. And the "kingdom" of Daniel 2:44-45 hasn't been set up with the "Word of God" ruling with a rod of iron.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Your problems are many. The Roman empire was not described as a "dragon" but as "dreadful" with "large iron teeth" (Daniel 7:7). The "dragon" of Revelation 13:4 is the "authority" behind the beast. Daniel 2:35 & 44-45 is about all the above kingdoms being crushed all at the same time, and another "kingdom" being put in their place. That hasn't happened, and they still exist for an "appointed period of time" (Daniel 7:12). The "beast" with 7 heads was used in judging Israel and Judah. It was the 10 horns of the 8th head of the beast who hated the "harlot"/Jews (Revelation 17:16).

The Book of Daniel is a 2nd-century BC biblical apocalypse combining a prophecy of history with an eschatology (a portrayal of end times) which is both cosmic in scope and political in its focus. In more mundane language, it is "an account of the activities and visions of Daniel, a noble Jew exiled at Babylon," its message being that just as the God of Israel saved Daniel and his friends from their enemies, so he would save all of Israel in their present oppression.

The book's intended audience is the Jews of the 2nd century BC.

The ram and he-goat (Daniel 8) as conventional astrological symbols represent Persia and Syria, as the text explains. The "mighty horn" stands for Alexander the Great (reigned 336–323 BC) and the "four lesser horns" represent the four principal generals (Diadochi) who fought over the Greek empire following Alexander's death.

The "little horn" again represents Antiochus IV..
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Daniel didn't prophesy anything at all about the Catholic church.. It didn't exist.

The lamb is Jesus.

Do you understand that there was NO Daniel? There were many authors of Daniel.

The book of Daniel was prophetic about future events. Daniel 7:25 refers to the king following the "fourth beast" (Daniel 7:23) with 10 horns, which would be Constantine, whose authority came from the "beast" of Revelation 13:11-12)/Caesar. Constantine changed times and law, and set up his Roman church to "wear down the saints" (Daniel 7:25) for time, times and half a time.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
The Book of Daniel is a 2nd-century BC biblical apocalypse combining a prophecy of history with an eschatology (a portrayal of end times) which is both cosmic in scope and political in its focus. In more mundane language, it is "an account of the activities and visions of Daniel, a noble Jew exiled at Babylon," its message being that just as the God of Israel saved Daniel and his friends from their enemies, so he would save all of Israel in their present oppression.

The book's intended audience is the Jews of the 2nd century BC.

The ram and he-goat (Daniel 8) as conventional astrological symbols represent Persia and Syria, as the text explains. The "mighty horn" stands for Alexander the Great (reigned 336–323 BC) and the "four lesser horns" represent the four principal generals (Diadochi) who fought over the Greek empire following Alexander's death.

The "little horn" again represents Antiochus IV..

What does Antiochus IV have to do with the price of coffee? The Persians and Greeks only covered the 2nd and 3rd heads of the beast. We are in the era of the 8th head of the beast (Revelation 17:11). Titus was the 10th horn of the 6th head of the beast.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
The consensus of modern scholars is that Daniel never existed, and the book is a cryptic allusion to the reign of the 2nd century BCE Greek king Antiochus IV Epiphanes..

Daniel (biblical figure) - Wikipedia

And yet Daniel tells of Rome and of the end of time. Maybe you should attend the church of "modern scholars". They also say that Peter probably didn't write 2 Peter, and that Paul probably didn't write but half of his epistles. Without 2 Peter, you have no Paul, and without Paul and Peter you have no church of the tares.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
The ram's two horns represented the Median and Persian elements of the kingdom. Indeed, as with the symbol of the tilted bear in chapter 7, we see that one horn of the ram was higher than the other, in both cases representing the dominance of Persia over Media (see 8:20). "Ancient records declare that the king of Persia, when at the head of his army, bore in the place of a crown the head of a ram. The same figure is frequently found on Persian seals" (qtd. in Expositor's Bible Commentary, footnote on verse 3).

The male goat coming from the west to cast down and trample the Persian ram, so swiftly that it is as if he flies above the ground, is the kingdom of Greece—its large horn being its first king (verse 21), that is, the first Greek king to succeed the Persian Empire after overcoming it.

This could only refer to Alexander the Great of Macedonia, who carved out his vast Hellenistic Empire in short order. Launching his attack against Persia in 334 B.C., he had essentially subdued it by 332.

http://bible.ucg.org/bible-commentary/Daniel/Vision-of-the-ram-and-the-he-goat/
 

sooda

Veteran Member
What does Antiochus IV have to do with the price of coffee? The Persians and Greeks only covered the 2nd and 3rd heads of the beast. We are in the era of the 8th head of the beast (Revelation 17:11). Titus was the 10th horn of the 6th head of the beast.

The Elamite capital of Shushan or Susa (verse 2). This city, which was about 230 miles east of Babylon, would become one of the imperial capitals of the Medo-Persian Empire. Thus it was a fitting place to see the ram representing that empire.

http://bible.ucg.org/bible-commentary/Daniel/Vision-of-the-ram-and-the-he-goat/
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
The ram's two horns represented the Median and Persian elements of the kingdom. Indeed, as with the symbol of the tilted bear in chapter 7, we see that one horn of the ram was higher than the other, in both cases representing the dominance of Persia over Media (see 8:20). "Ancient records declare that the king of Persia, when at the head of his army, bore in the place of a crown the head of a ram. The same figure is frequently found on Persian seals" (qtd. in Expositor's Bible Commentary, footnote on verse 3).

The male goat coming from the west to cast down and trample the Persian ram, so swiftly that it is as if he flies above the ground, is the kingdom of Greece—its large horn being its first king (verse 21), that is, the first Greek king to succeed the Persian Empire after overcoming it.

This could only refer to Alexander the Great of Macedonia, who carved out his vast Hellenistic Empire in short order. Launching his attack against Persia in 334 B.C., he had essentially subdued it by 332.

http://bible.ucg.org/bible-commentary/Daniel/Vision-of-the-ram-and-the-he-goat/

You keep reinforcing your foundation with straw men. Alexander represented the 3rd head of the beast. It was the "dreadful" beast with very large "iron teeth" (Daniel 7:7), and had 10 horns, which was Rome, which was to follow, and "another" king, with the "authority" of the "beast" would follow them (Daniel 7:24) & (Revelation 13:11-12).
 

sooda

Veteran Member
You keep reinforcing your foundation with straw men. Alexander represented the 3rd head of the beast. It was the "dreadful" beast with very large "iron teeth" (Daniel 7:7), and had 10 horns, which was Rome, which was to follow, and "another" king, with the "authority" of the "beast" would follow them (Daniel 7:24) & (Revelation 13:11-12).

Daniel is partially history (about Babylon) and partially about events in the 2nd century before Christ. Much of Daniel is about Antiochus IV Epiphanes because he was cruel and defiled the Temple.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Daniel is partially history (about Babylon) and partially about events in the 2nd century before Christ. Much of Daniel is about Antiochus IV Epiphanes because he was cruel and defiled the Temple.

Daniel is about all the kingdoms of Daniel 2:35, which included the legs of iron, and the feet of iron and clay, which was Rome and compilation of Rome and the Muslims. Revelation is a parallel prophecy, which includes Rome in the form of the beast of Caesar, Augustus Caesars, the 6th head, and Caesar as the 8th head of the beast. The Romans Pompey and Titus also defiled the Temple, before and after "Christ".
 

sooda

Veteran Member
If "Jesus won the battle" why is the battle still going on? And if the dragon/devil was the authority behind the "beast" (Revelation 13:4), why does the dragon/devil, father of lies, still roam the earth? And what does Nero have to do with Revelation 19:15 whereas the "Word of God" smites the nations? Nero was part of the nations/Gentiles. I think you have listened to the Jesuits, and have got in front of yourself.

Supposing John wrote during Vespasian’s reign in the summer of A.D. 70, just after Domitian’s temporary time on the throne ended and several months before the destruction of Jerusalem, then the five kings who have fallen would be Augustus, Tiberius, Gaius Caligula, Claudius, and Nero. The one who is would be Vespasian. The other who has not yet come and must remain only a little while would be Titus. The eighth would be Domitian. Domitian, then, could be described as one who “was,” in the sense that he had already reigned as “Caesar” in his father’s stead for a short time. He could be described as one who “is not,” in the sense that he has now vacated the throne upon the arrival of his father Vespasian.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Supposing John wrote during Vespasian’s reign in the summer of A.D. 70, just after Domitian’s temporary time on the throne ended and several months before the destruction of Jerusalem, then the five kings who have fallen would be Augustus, Tiberius, Gaius Caligula, Claudius, and Nero. The one who is would be Vespasian. The other who has not yet come and must remain only a little while would be Titus. The eighth would be Domitian. Domitian, then, could be described as one who “was,” in the sense that he had already reigned as “Caesar” in his father’s stead for a short time. He could be described as one who “is not,” in the sense that he has now vacated the throne upon the arrival of his father Vespasian.

Your problem is that the beast with seven heads of Revelation 13:1-3 is described as a leopard/Greece, as a "bear"/Persia, as a "lion"/Babylon (Daniel 7:4-7), with a "slain" head being of Rome. Your Domitian did not have 10 horns, nor did Titus deceive "those who dwell on the earth". And all of the kingdoms of Daniel 2:35 were to have been "crushed" all at the same time after each had been individually crushed. This has not been completed, nor had the "kingdom" of God been set up on earth (Daniel 2:44-45) & (Revelation 19:15). All of the Augustus Caesars you listed got their authority by way of Julius Caesar, not by way of Augustus, or Nero. The "awesome day of the LORD" (Joel 2:31) is when the nations/Gentiles are brought to judgment (Joel 3:2) & (Zechariah 14:12) & (Jeremiah 30:11) & (Revelation 19:15). That has not been completed.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
Certainly Jesus is one of the four riders of Revelation.

"Let us pause now to explain something important that comes to my mind any time I read these scriptures in chapter nineteen of Revelation, especially verse 11: “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.” Every time I read this scripture describing Jesus riding a white horse, I just want to cry out in frustration, recalling a prominent preacher who lately has been teaching on TV that the rider of the white horse appearing in chapter six of Revelation, and which is the same rider that represents Jesus in chapter nineteen, is the antichrist: “And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him; and he went forth conquering and to conquer” (Rev. 6:2).
I wonder sometimes where is the wisdom of our spiritual leaders. How can they allow this man to teach wrongfully that the rider of the white horse is the antichrist, instead of Jesus? Many will recognize this preacher, but even he, with his questionable interpretations of the scriptures, aids in validating the veracity of our doctrine, since traditional beliefs cannot recognize Jesus as one of the four riders with the Devil, His counterpart, the rider of the red horse: “And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they shall kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword” (Rev. 6:4).
Likewise, traditional doctrines do not accept God as the rider of the black horse, the mediator that keeps the balance between Jesus and the Devil, until everything in His plan is fulfilled, and Jesus sits on God‘s throne forever: “And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, ‘Come and see.’ And I beheld, and lo, a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hands” (v6); “And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say [God’s voice from His throne], A measure of wheat for a penny; and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine” (Rev. 6:5-6). For God, every human being has the same value, regardless of what others think of him, and this is implied when He says that three measures of barley have the same price as a measure of wheat. For Him, all humans are equal despite their contradictions, and no one will be hurt, like the oil and wine in the scripture, which represent antagonism. The oil and the wine will never mix. They stand for opposition, but for God, they are still equal. The fourth rider, on a pale horse, is death, the only way for men to go to Heaven: “And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth” (Rev. 6:8).
Yes, definitely, God and Jesus are two of the


four riders, and this is another astonishing

revelation that God wants us to transmit."

Excerpt from "The Last Prophecy" w..zondervansfall.com

The four horsemen are just symbols used to describe the first four [4] seals.

images


Revelation 6:2 New International Version (NIV)
I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

The rider of the white horse of Rev 6:2 is not the Lord Jesus Christ
However the rider of the white horse in Rev 19:11-14 is the Lord Jesus Christ
There are significant differences

upload_2019-4-23_11-26-56.jpeg


Revelation 19:11-15 New International Version (NIV)
I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

The riders mentioned are entirely different from each other even though they are both riding the white horse.
Further the Lord Jesus Christ is being followed by the armies of heaven in white horses
Being on a white horse per se does not imply the same thing.

Before we read the Book of Revelations we have to bear in mind:
These are prophecies of the Lord Jesus Christ - events that will take place Revelation 1
The messages for the first century church of Christ Revelation 2-3
The vision of heaven, the 24 elders, the spirits, the angels of God and the four living creatures Revelation 4
The a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. Revelation 5

The scroll were sealed and it will be opened until the time of the end....

Daniel 12:4,9 New International Version (NIV)
But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.” He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end.

upload_2019-4-23_11-18-43.jpeg


These seals were written in Rev 6-8
And I have posted these on another thread

Nine Pieces Of Evidence That Confirm The Historical Accuracy Of The Bible

Particularly in
#594 MJFlores, Apr 15, 2019

In summary the seven seals are:

1st seal - white horse - Nicene Christianity becomes a state religion 380 AD
2nd seal - red horse - Crusade expeditions occurred between 1096 and 1291 AD
3rd seal - black horse - Great Famine in Europe 1315–1317
4rth seal - pale horse - Black Death 1347-1351
5th seal - altar of souls - Inquisition - 12th century
6th seal - great earthquake, etc - 1 November 1755 to 11 November 1918
7th seal - silence in the heavens - 11 November 1918 to September 1,1939
 
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