Belief in a Personal God is very bad news

Muffled said:

I believe God is very bad news for the wicked no matter how much self righteousness they have.

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On what evidence do you base this assertion?

Muffled said:

I believe all you need to know is in the Bible. Looking for knowledge within your self doesn't work very well.

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Bible teaches us to love they enemies.

Shantanu said:

God exists but is very bad news for humans to have to contend with.

God takes away ones freedom to act to ones one satisfaction on what is right or wrong, good or bad as duties. We humans are capable of looking after our own affairs without such guidance and imposition. It makes life more interesting if we make mistakes and try and resolve our problems by consulting each other and agreeing a joint path for mankind.

The correct method that works for me is to rely on my Consciousness to guide me as God does not insist that we subscribe to Him for our intelligence and wisdom. My Consciousness has always led me on the right path in terms of duties and righteous actions on a daily basis.

So I might as well be an atheist for all intents and purposes.

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Right! Then this world will have more selfish people resulting in unwanted pregnancies, broken families, and fatherless children...and crime will rise.

Sounds like a plan!

Hockeycowboy said:

Right! Then this world will have more selfish people resulting in unwanted pregnancies, broken families, and fatherless children...and crime will rise.

Sounds like a plan!

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The question was could one be free of God and yet benefit from His intelligence and wisdom in conducting one's life through merging with Brahman Consciousness. I believe it is possible and therefore one can be a kind of atheist, that is a non-subscriber to a Personal God but a subscriber to the Ultimate Reality of Brahman Consciousness. That is what it is to be an advaitin.

Shantanu said:

God exists but is very bad news for humans to have to contend with.

God takes away ones freedom to act to ones one satisfaction on what is right or wrong, good or bad as duties. We humans are capable of looking after our own affairs without such guidance and imposition. It makes life more interesting if we make mistakes and try and resolve our problems by consulting each other and agreeing a joint path for mankind.

The correct method that works for me is to rely on my Consciousness to guide me as God does not insist that we subscribe to Him for our intelligence and wisdom. My Consciousness has always led me on the right path in terms of duties and righteous actions on a daily basis.

So I might as well be an atheist for all intents and purposes.

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An atheist who follows consciousness (and their ain't one or we'd live in utopia) is like a fish who cannot see this ocean everyone claims or the sky above the waters.

God gives freedom, and doesn't take it away, or their would be no atheists!

BilliardsBall said:

An atheist who follows consciousness (and their ain't one or we'd live in utopia) is like a fish who cannot see this ocean everyone claims or the sky above the waters.

God gives freedom, and doesn't take it away, or their would be no atheists!

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What I am saying is that one does not need a Personal God to guide one on right or wrong actions as long as one subscribes to Brahman Consciousness for that is the source of all the intelligence and wisdom that are required by a human being living out this life on Earth in terms of his or her survival neeeds. One does not need to worship such a Brahman Consciousness Entity nor proselytize about its existence because it does not go away anywhere if we stop singing its praises: it does indeed give one the freedom to attain liberation and moksha within this living experience.

Shantanu said:

God exists but is very bad news for humans to have to contend with.

God takes away ones freedom to act to ones one satisfaction on what is right or wrong, good or bad as duties. We humans are capable of looking after our own affairs without such guidance and imposition. It makes life more interesting if we make mistakes and try and resolve our problems by consulting each other and agreeing a joint path for mankind.

The correct method that works for me is to rely on my Consciousness to guide me as God does not insist that we subscribe to Him for our intelligence and wisdom. My Consciousness has always led me on the right path in terms of duties and righteous actions on a daily basis.

So I might as well be an atheist for all intents and purposes.

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Not to compare you with him in any way, shape, or form, but I would imagine Hitler let his conscience be his guide to action instead of at least trying to follow the scriptures. On the other hand, you are a remarkable person in that the actions you take because of your conscience ("they've always led me on the right path") have never hurt yourself or anybody else. That's pretty good. A rare bird indeed!

A parent tells their child to not put their hand in the fire. Normally, they don't tie them to a bed so as to not allow them to make their own choice. It's just that the parent knows ahead of time what happens when a hand is put into a fire, whereas the poor unsuspecting child has no idea. Of course they will learn what fire does to flesh either way. One way sure seems better than another.

Getting back to Hitler; I would guess his conscience told him he was doing the right thing. Well, that's what an unsuspecting child would think when they put their hand to the fire. The bottom line is that everybody is right in their own eyes. They can always justify their actions regardless of how those actions affect everybody else.

It's nice to have someone outside of oneself who has "been around the block" to at least tell us ahead of time when our actions will cause grave harm to ourselves or to others. Maybe your conscience leads you in the right path, but your conscience is different than everybody else's. No two people think alike. No telling what atrocity somebody's conscience will cause them to commit. And they'll thing they were completely justified.

The scriptures lay out a course of action that would result in perfect harmony, love, peace, contentment, etc. Now I understand that nobody, with the notable exception of Jesus, will actually follow them to the letter, but if they did, all would be fine and dandy. So instead trusting is everybody's individual consciences to guide human kind, I think it would be better to follow a proven method. I understand many abhor the Christian scriptures. That's OK. There's always Buddhism, Hinduism, Rasta, or any number of other systems that should people follow, things would be a lot better. While I've found, for various reasons, the scriptures to be far superior to any of the other systems, at least trying to follow any one of them would lesson the negativity in this world. It's worth noting that none of these systems force anybody to do anything, no more than your own conscience forces you into a particular course of action. It's always up to the individual to follow their conscience, scriptures, or whatever. We always have free will.

In any case, I really can't help but think that one's own conscience leaves a lot to be desired as a guide to living.

Take care

rrobs said:

Not to compare you with him in any way, shape, or form, but I would imagine Hitler let his conscience be his guide to action instead of at least trying to follow the scriptures. On the other hand, you are a remarkable person in that the actions you take because of your conscience ("they've always led me on the right path") has never hurt yourself or anybody else. That's pretty good. A rare bird indeed!

A parent tells their child to not put their hand in the fire. Normally, they don't tie them to a bed so as to not allow them to make their own choice. It's just that the parent knows ahead of time what happens when a hand is put into a fire, whereas the poor unsuspecting child has no idea. Of course they will learn what fire does to flesh either way. One way sure seems better than another.

Getting back to Hitler; I would guess his conscience told him he was doing the right thing. Well, that's what an unsuspecting child would think when they put their hand to the fire. The bottom line is that everybody is right in their own eyes. They can always justify their actions regardless of how those actions affect everybody else.

It's nice to have someone outside of oneself who has "been around the block" to at least tell us ahead of time when our actions will cause grave harm to ourselves or to others. Maybe your conscience leads you in the right path, but your conscience is different than everybody else's. No two people think alike. No telling what atrocity somebody's conscience will cause them to commit. And they'll thing they were completely justified.

The scriptures lay out a course of action that would result in perfect harmony, love, peace, contentment, etc. Now I understand that nobody, with the notable exception of Jesus, will actually follow them to the letter, but if they did, all would be fine and dandy. So instead trusting is everybody's individual consciences to guide human kind, I think it would be better to follow a proven method. I understand many abhor the Christian scriptures. That's OK. There's always Buddhism, Hinduism, Rasta, or any number of other systems that should people follow, things would be a lot better. None of systems force anybody to do anything, no more than your own conscience forces you into a particular course of action. It's always up to the individual to follow their conscience, scriptures, or whatever. We always have free will.

In any case, I really can't help but think that one's own conscience leaves a lot to be desired as a guide to living.

Take care

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Thank you for very interesting take and justifying the religious stance.

I was not talking about conscience as the guide which can generate very evil acts that Hitler is known in history for but of subscribing to Consciousness as the Entity of the universe that is the source of dharma (duties and righteous actions). If one is attuned and focussed on this Consciousness one gets to know everything that there is to know because Consciousness Brahman is Truth/Existence/Reality-Consciousness/Awareness-Bliss. One is consequently infallible in ones deeds and free of issues that prevent one's survival in the world with dignity. No one can harm such an individual is the premise of the argument in this theology.

loverofhumanity said:

From what I see God allows us complete freedom to do as we please. All God does is send us a Prophet sometimes to offer us solutions for our problems but He never forces us to accept them.

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And what of those who never hear of this prophet and god's requirements, OR those who have only heard of him through incompetent, ineffectual preachers, and remain unconvinced? Is this their fault?

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Shantanu said:

Thank you for very interesting take and justifying the religious stance.

I was not talking about conscience as the guide which can generate very evil acts that Hitler is known in history for but of subscribing to Consciousness as the Entity of the universe that is the source of dharma (duties and righteous actions). If one is attuned and focussed on this Consciousness one gets to know everything that there is to know because Consciousness Brahman is Truth/Existence/Reality-Consciousness/Awareness-Bliss. One is consequently infallible in ones deeds and free of issues that prevent one's survival in the world with dignity. No one can harm such an individual is the premise of the argument in this theology.

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OK. I understand. It appears you are using a point of reference outside yourself (Brahma) to guide your conscience. I misunderstood you to be saying that we should just follow what seems right based on pure self awareness. Does that make sense? Maybe not. What I mean to say is that merely following what "feels good" internally often leads to less than desirable results. Your Brahma is the source that's outside of yourself and thats been "around the block" and knows a few things about life you yourself may never have thought.

I guess the problem is that nobody can perfectly follow whatever it is they chose to accept as truth. That is as true for the Christian as it is for the Brahman. We all try, but often fall short. I know Christianity claims Jesus to be an exception to that rule. I honestly don't know any other religion that had a follower who followed the precepts to the last jot and title. That doesn't mean there wasn't someone who did do that, I've just not heard of such a person. Is there a man who followed your religion to perfection, who never went against the tenets of Brahmanism?

Take care my friend...

Skwim said:

And what of those who never hear of this prophet and god's requirements, OR those who have only heard of him through incompetent, ineffectual preachers, and remain unconvinced? Is this their fault?

.

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It is a huge mistake to think that only those who accept Jesus will get into paradise. There are certain advantages to accepting Jesus which I will only get into if you are interested. In any case, the scriptures are clear that when God judges people He will do it based on what is in their hearts and not necessarily their actions. Man tends to judge by appearance with little or no regard for what's going on inside of someone's head.

Most people are pretty decent folks. The Hitlers, of this world are a small minority. It is true that nobody, with the exception of Jesus, lives a perfect life of love, no matter how much we try. We all cause some amount of pain to ourselves or to others. But few do so intentionally and God is not stupid. The scriptures declare that He knows us better than we know ourselves. He makes allowances for our shortcomings and will do so when we all appear before the judgment seat. I suspect most, even Atheists, will find themselves enjoying eternity in paradise. At least that's my understand of God from the scriptures. I understand it goes against church tradition, but I'll take the scriptures over tradition any day of the week.

Take care...

Shantanu said:

The correct method that works for me is to rely on my Consciousness to guide me as God does not insist that we subscribe to Him for our intelligence and wisdom. My Consciousness has always led me on the right path in terms of duties and righteous actions on a daily basis.

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Aren't you just great? Congratulations on that great wisdom that has always led you on the right path. If only everyone in the world was as smart as you!
Can you imagine the amount of injustice and suffering that could have been avoided?

loverofhumanity said:

From what I see God allows us complete freedom to do as we please. All God does is send us a Prophet sometimes to offer us solutions for our problems but He never forces us to accept them.

We’ve had two great wars and all sorts of problems but God just leaves us alone to learn from our mistakes.

I think God is just letting us come to the conclusion that we need to consult with each about a path for humanity.

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I don't see it that way at all. Your god demands you to act and be a certain way otherwise you will suffer eternal damnation. That is blackmail.

Shantanu said:

God exists but is very bad news for humans to have to contend with.

God takes away ones freedom to act to ones one satisfaction on what is right or wrong, good or bad as duties. We humans are capable of looking after our own affairs without such guidance and imposition. It makes life more interesting if we make mistakes and try and resolve our problems by consulting each other and agreeing a joint path for mankind.

The correct method that works for me is to rely on my Consciousness to guide me as God does not insist that we subscribe to Him for our intelligence and wisdom. My Consciousness has always led me on the right path in terms of duties and righteous actions on a daily basis.

So I might as well be an atheist for all intents and purposes.

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In my own story I have had a couple significant experiences of God that have brought me out of a depression and into a deeply motivated sense of purpose and meaning.

What you describe sounds like what a lot of people act like when they talk about God. But I'll bet few of them would say they had a direct encounter with God. They may not know what that is like.

rrobs said:

Is there a man who followed your religion to perfection, who never went against the tenets of Brahmanism?

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I only discovered this myself from examining my own thoughts and actions. I know of no other human being who follows Brahmanism in the way that I do through truth search and truth accommodation.

sealchan said:

In my own story I have had a couple significant experiences of God that have brought me out of a depression and into a deeply motivated sense of purpose and meaning.

What you describe sounds like what a lot of people act like when they talk about God. But I'll bet few of them would say they had a direct encounter with God. They may not know what that is like.

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"The temporal lobes are clearly important in religious and spiritual experiences. The amygdala and hippocampus have been shown to be particularly involved in the experience of visions, profound experiences, memory, and meditation." - Andrew Newberg

Vee said:

Aren't you just great? Congratulations on that great wisdom that has always led you on the right path. If only everyone in the world was as smart as you!
Can you imagine the amount of injustice and suffering that could have been avoided?

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No I am not great: but I am a survivor of intolerable persecution from the UK State through my religious practices.

sealchan said:

In my own story I have had a couple significant experiences of God that have brought me out of a depression and into a deeply motivated sense of purpose and meaning.

What you describe sounds like what a lot of people act like when they talk about God. But I'll bet few of them would say they had a direct encounter with God. They may not know what that is like.

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This sense of purpose and meaning that you found: was it long lasting? Did God stay with you all the time: how could you be sure of that if He did?

Hockeycowboy said:

Right! Then this world will have more selfish people resulting in unwanted pregnancies, broken families, and fatherless children...and crime will rise.

Sounds like a plan!

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The highest amount of unwanted pregnancies and broken families are in religiously conservative Christian communities which take a dim view of contraception and the education to use it properly, or places where people are just too poor to have contraceptives accessible even if they want to use it. Just saying. I'd worry more about poverty and adequate healthcare than whether they're classically theist on those accounts.

Shantanu said:

God is not letting us know anything: I have come to my own conclusions based on a 20 year search for the intentions of God in our daily lives. One must be free from this God-delusion that He wishes anything for us humans.

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God created us, and created laws for our own good. Who are you, the created, questioning the motives of the Creator.

If all followed his word, his laws of the New Testament, humanity would have the best lives possible.

God does leave us alone to do exactly as we choose, and humanity has screwed it up royally. Mass killings, wars, brutal crime, hatreds of all sorts, the fear and possibility of nuclear total destruction and total death, I could go on, but don´t need to.

We have done just fine in rejecting Gods way for our lives, ya think ?

He says he won´t put up with it forever, and that his patience will reach an end.

Knowing the best for us, a time will come when we follow him and his ways, or we cease to exist.

The perogative of the Creator over the fatally flawed by choice created.