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Theist's the Hard Truth

74x12

74x12

Well-Known Member
Nakosis said:
If you were born to a devout Hindu family in Mumbai India, or to a pious Christian family in Atlanta Georgia, would you be a convinced Muslim today? Of course, you cannot answer that question for certain but, statistically there is an extremely high probability that you would be a Hindu or a Christian and you would believe Muslims have got almost everything wrong.

Hindus and Christians can ask themselves a similar question and they will get a similar result.

The hard truth is, you are not certain your faith is true because you have determined it is true through evidence and reason; you are certain it is true because you have been TRAINED to believe it is true, and to behave as though it is true.

The hardest truth of all is, with respect to your faith, you have more in common with a performing dog than with a rational, intelligent human being.
The hardest truth of all - Atheist Alliance International

It's annoy a Theist week, or, on the road to becoming a militant atheist. :rolleyes:

So the idea is that you believe because you were train to believe. Can you convince yourself or someone else otherwise?

As a kid many get trained to think in terms of a God. Even if raised as an atheist it's hard to escape being taught what God is, even as someone else's belief.

So you convert from one religion to another, still thinking in terms of God. Or maybe as a atheist convert to some belief, thinking in terms of a God you were taught not to believe in.

I'm not saying atheists don't have their own issues with being trained in how to think. but, does the belief in God persist because it's is how we were trained to think?
Click to expand...
You would be just as likely to be Hindu if raised Hindu. The fact is that the atheist movement is strong in whatever country you live in and you're not nearly so original as you seem to be claiming you are.

IQ correlates with someone's educational level. Meaning obviously; someone can improve their IQ score through learning/practice. If you use your mind more then you will be more intelligent. No wonder some countries around the world have such abysmal average IQs.

In western countries we have an educational system biased and skewed towards atheism. So of course more highly educated people are also more indoctrinated people. The fact many people reject their Christian heritage when they attend college or even high school is no surprise. However, I'm considered the idiot for pointing out the obvious bias and people will just lie and tell me that they teach "such and such" in school because it's "science".

Someone's faith in God should be based on miracles/signs/wonders. Things God has done for them or they've seen God do. If your faith is only based on what you've been told then no wonder it's easily overcome by so called knowledge they taught people in school.
 
joe lewis

joe lewis

New Member
Nakosis said:
If you were born to a devout Hindu family in Mumbai India, or to a pious Christian family in Atlanta Georgia, would you be a convinced Muslim today? Of course, you cannot answer that question for certain but, statistically there is an extremely high probability that you would be a Hindu or a Christian and you would believe Muslims have got almost everything wrong.

Hindus and Christians can ask themselves a similar question and they will get a similar result.

The hard truth is, you are not certain your faith is true because you have determined it is true through evidence and reason; you are certain it is true because you have been TRAINED to believe it is true, and to behave as though it is true.

The hardest truth of all is, with respect to your faith, you have more in common with a performing dog than with a rational, intelligent human being.
The hardest truth of all - Atheist Alliance International

It's annoy a Theist week, or, on the road to becoming a militant atheist. :rolleyes:

So the idea is that you believe because you were train to believe. Can you convince yourself or someone else otherwise?

As a kid many get trained to think in terms of a God. Even if raised as an atheist it's hard to escape being taught what God is, even as someone else's belief.

So you convert from one religion to another, still thinking in terms of God. Or maybe as a atheist convert to some belief, thinking in terms of a God you were taught not to believe in.

I'm not saying atheists don't have their own issues with being trained in how to think. but, does the belief in God persist because it's is how we were trained to think?
Click to expand...
 
Nakosis

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
leroy said:
Ohhhh so you are an atheist because of science and reason?

What scientific evidence or line of reasoning convinced you that atheism is true? @Nakosis
Click to expand...

Because I don't trust myself or anyone else to make claims about the existence of any god. If there were claims made back by evidence of that I felt I could otherwise trust, I'd be happy to believe in a god.

BTW
The reason why I believe that the heliocentric model is true is because I was born in the 20th century.... If I would have been born in the 1400s I would probably have been a geocentricist. .... But I am sure you would not accept this argument to support geocentricism.
Click to expand...

Maybe, someday we'll have a different model. A model is just a model. As we learn more we can create more accurate models based on what is known and verified.
What do we know about God?
 
Nakosis

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
74x12 said:
Someone's faith in God should be based on miracles/signs/wonders. Things God has done for them or they've seen God do. If your faith is only based on what you've been told then no wonder it's easily overcome by so called knowledge they taught people in school.
Click to expand...

Ok but these things, miracles/signs/wonders, couldn't they have been caused by something other than God?
 
Nakosis

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Erebus said:
I'm not intending to answer for @SalixIncendium here but this is something I just wanted to jump in on.

We probably think in terms of "god" simply because that's the word that became the most prevalent among English speakers. The exact nature of what a god is remains ambiguous and has led to some debate over whether or not the word is actually applicable to other cultures. There have been a couple of accounts of "atheist tribes" who don't believe in any supreme god but nonetheless believe in spirits or engage in ancestor worship. The point at which a spirit or ancestor can be considered a deity is a hazy one that largely depends on how an individual interprets the word, "god."

To illustrate this, imagine that some immensely powerful extraterrestrial being introduced itself to humanity. This being has the power to create whole worlds and new life. One person might decide this being qualifies as a god, another may conclude it is simply a powerful alien. Both would be right.
Click to expand...

It's part of our history. It is hard to escape the God concept mindset even if one is raised atheist. Things happen, stuff we can't explain but seems profound/miraculous, the god concept is there floating around in our brain just waiting to be the explanation for something.
 
joe lewis

joe lewis

New Member
First of all, we can never be certain that any faith is true. See Faith’s Inferno If we could be certain it were true then it would be a fact, not a faith. It is certainly true that statistically speaking we will inherit the faith of our predominant culture, families and so forth. That doesn't in and of itself prove that a God doesn't exist. There could be a God - or Gods - whose actual nature transcends all man-made religions, or any attempt to fully conceptualize.

Whatever our limited mortal minds might be able to comprehend of any God that actually exists, may be expressed in different ways, at different times, at different places in the history of humanity. The God of the Christians may well be the same Allah of the Muslims, or the Tao of the Taoists, or the Hindu "Holy Triad" of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva. BTW note that Christians too have a Holy Trinity! By the same token, perhaps the Eastern "Kundalini" is the same as the Western "Holy Spirit". Even the "stigmata" of Christian mysticism (Stigmata - Wikipedia) has a correlate in Buddhism.

To extend this idea further: if intelligent beings exist on other planets, and they too believe in a Universal God, and have religions, I would be very surprised if their "Gods" and religions had the same names as those on planet earth! Wouldn't you?
 
SalixIncendium

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
Jollybear said:
Many Religion and spirituality teaches to not bully or hurt others.

So, a parrent teaching a child not to beat up there little brother, does the parrent have a inflatted ego in doing that?
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Many people that do not identify as religious or spiritual also teach that bullying and hurting others is wrong.

Sorry, but this qualifies as a moral or ethical value, not a religious or spiritual one. If one needs a religion to tell them that hurting others is wrong, perhaps one should look at their psychological profile rather than what religion (or lack thereof) that they follow.
 
SalixIncendium

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
Nakosis said:
I'm just questioning why we think in terms of god, a god concept. I'll accept that folks experience something that convinces them of some god entity but why a god. Why couldn't there be something else that caused/was behind the experience?
Click to expand...

Concepts of god vary greatly from religion to religion or from person to person. For some, it brings to mind an anthropomorphic creator deity that is heavily involved in the daily workings of one's existence. For others (myself included), it is a word that is used to communicate an Ultimate or Absolute reality.

As @Erebus alludes to, 'god' is a universally accepted term in the English language to describe something more ultimate or absolute than what is perceived in relative reality. For me, it's easier to use the term 'god' to communicate such a concept than to explain to someone what nirguna Brahman is.
 
Last edited:
Vinayaka

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Nakosis said:
If you were born to a devout Hindu family in Mumbai India, or to a pious Christian family in Atlanta Georgia, would you be a convinced Muslim today? Of course, you cannot answer that question for certain but, statistically there is an extremely high probability that you would be a Hindu or a Christian and you would believe Muslims have got almost everything wrong.

Hindus and Christians can ask themselves a similar question and they will get a similar result.

The hard truth is, you are not certain your faith is true because you have determined it is true through evidence and reason; you are certain it is true because you have been TRAINED to believe it is true, and to behave as though it is true.

The hardest truth of all is, with respect to your faith, you have more in common with a performing dog than with a rational, intelligent human being.
The hardest truth of all - Atheist Alliance International

It's annoy a Theist week, or, on the road to becoming a militant atheist. :rolleyes:

So the idea is that you believe because you were train to believe. Can you convince yourself or someone else otherwise?

As a kid many get trained to think in terms of a God. Even if raised as an atheist it's hard to escape being taught what God is, even as someone else's belief.

So you convert from one religion to another, still thinking in terms of God. Or maybe as a atheist convert to some belief, thinking in terms of a God you were taught not to believe in.

I'm not saying atheists don't have their own issues with being trained in how to think. but, does the belief in God persist because it's is how we were trained to think?
Click to expand...

Usually, sure. Always exceptions.
 
Nakosis

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
SalixIncendium said:
Concepts of god vary greatly from religion to religion or from person to person. For some, it brings to mind an anthropomorphic creator deity that is heavily involved in the daily workings of one's existence. For others (myself included), it is a word that is used to communicate an Ultimate or Absolute reality.

As @Erebus alludes to, 'god' is a universally accepted term in the English language to describe something more ultimate or absolute than what is perceived in relative reality. For me, it's easier to use the term 'god' to communicate such a concept than to explain to someone what nirguna Brahman is.
Click to expand...

Does anyone ever attain it? And how would you know if they did? For that matter how would the individual know they had?
 
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