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Who is your 'lamb who takes away the sins of the world'?

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
What is sin? What forces are these that reward me when I do this sin? What are these rewards?

By that standard, I must not be sinning because my life has never been easy.

The penalty for sin is Death, and all have sinned, and all must pay the blood price for their sins: and our disembodied spirits/minds will be Judged. The repentant who strove for righteousness, are separated from the unrepentant wicked, and enter into rest in Christ, while the wicked must await in fearful expectation of their fate, on the
great day of judgement, when as revealed in Revelation 21: 8; The cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars-they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

The death of the wicked disembodied minds, which are then divided from the eternal souls and enter into eternal oblivion, after which those dead and empty souls will be given new bodies in which to develop new minds.
I
satah 57: 1-2; "Good people die, and no one understands or even cares. But when they [Good People] die, no calamity can hurt them. Those who lead Good lives find peace and rest in death.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
The penalty for sin is Death, and all have sinned, and all must pay the blood price for their sins: and our disembodied spirits/minds will be Judged. The repentant who strove for righteousness, are separated from the unrepentant wicked, and enter into rest in Christ, while the wicked must await in fearful expectation of their fate, on the
great day of judgement, when as revealed in Revelation 21: 8; The cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars-they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

The death of the wicked disembodied minds, which are then divided from the eternal souls and enter into eternal oblivion, after which those dead and empty souls will be given new bodies in which to develop new minds.
I
satah 57: 1-2; "Good people die, and no one understands or even cares. But when they [Good People] die, no calamity can hurt them. Those who lead Good lives find peace and rest in death.
None of that scares me. Nor does it suggest this "sin" thing applies to me if coming from an ancient book is all you have.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
None of that scares me. Nor does it suggest this "sin" thing applies to me if coming from an ancient book is all you have.

That's alright mate, you must believe that which you choose to believe. I will not miss one moment of sleep, because you choose to reject the words of the Son of Man, 'The Most High in the creation,' who according to your concept of one directional linear time, is still currently developing within the body of Mankind..

You do believe in the process of evolution, and that mankind developed within the bodies of our animal ancestors, don't you?

So do you believe that mankind who currently stands on the top rung of the ladder of evolution, closes the book of evolution, or will a being as superior to man as man is to the monkey, evolve from mankind?

And could he exist in our future, and is able to mentally descend from his heights in time and mentally merge, with an ancient ancestor within his past and reveal himself to You?

Or have you never received a visitation of the Most High?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
You do believe
I do not believe it: I accept it as fact just as much as I do germs and gravity.
That's alright mate, you must believe that which you choose to believe. I will not miss one moment of sleep, because you choose to reject the words of the Son of Man, 'The Most High in the creation,' who according to your concept of one directional linear time, is still currently developing within the body of Mankind..
It takes more than the words of an ancient book to convince me.

So do you believe that mankind who currently stands on the top rung of the ladder of evolution
Nope, and I assert that anyone who does believe so is an anthropocentric fool.

Or have you never received a visitation of the Most High?
I didn't even hallucinate the few times I did psilocybin and LSD.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I take Jesus sacrifice as the final sacrifice for sin and so in that sense I think that is over.

Of course you do, because that is the belief of traditional Christinaity.

However the New Testament has lots of places where there are other types of sacrifices
and the Old Testament sacrifices nearly pointed to them somehow

True, and the question is whether the concept of 'sacrifice' is the purpose of salvation in the relationship between God and humanity. I do not believe it is I believe the concept of the sacrifice to appease or request forgiveness of sins and transgressions is an ancient human concept that is best left in the past.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Of course you do, because that is the belief of traditional Christinaity.



True, and the question is whether the concept of 'sacrifice' is the purpose of salvation in the relationship between God and humanity. I do not believe it is I believe the concept of the sacrifice to appease or request forgiveness of sins and transgressions is an ancient human concept that is best left in the past.


The New Testament also refers to lots of different sacrifices
Paul calls himself a 'poured offering', with his life poured out over the offering of the gentile's faith to God
There are also 'living sacrifice' in the new testament analogous to one goat which is sent out alive into the wilderness I suppose
There are 'thank offerings'

There is Isaiah Isaiah 27:9. LXX (septuagint) which speaks of 'this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins' another reminder a key issue in the book is dealing with the sin problem
 

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
John the Baptist, the son of a Jewish Priest said it was Jesus somehow

In the Passover week a family would pick a lamb the week before the passover supper and it would be with them somehow for a week. Jesus was with Jerusalem the week leading to the passover supper

How are your sins or the sins of the world health with in your view?

"Kings will shut their mouths because of Him" "He will sprinkle many nations' Isaiah 52

The Passover Lamb is not a sin offering. It is closest to a Thank Offering.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
How are your sins or the sins of the world health with in your view?

We (Hindus) don't believe in sin the way Abrahamics do. To us, sin is not an offense against God, because God does not give us commandments or laws. We can't disobey something that doesn't exist. The follow-on to that is there is no need for any kind of salvation. We don't even consider moksha, liberation from the cycles of birth and death to be "salvation". We're not being saved from anything. We're achieving a new and final state, one which every soul, whether next year or in 150 quadrilion years' worth of rebirths will achieve. To that end, if I celebrate Easter in any way it's simply dinner with family.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The New Testament also refers to lots of different sacrifices

Paul calls himself a 'poured offering', with his life poured out over the offering of the gentile's faith to God
There are also 'living sacrifice' in the new testament analogous to one goat which is sent out alive into the wilderness I suppose
There are 'thank offerings'

There is Isaiah Isaiah 27:9. LXX (septuagint) which speaks of 'this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins' another reminder a key issue in the book is dealing with the sin problem

Yes, because that is the way they viewed their relationship with God from the human perspective.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
John the Baptist, the son of a Jewish Priest said it was Jesus somehow

In the Passover week a family would pick a lamb the week before the passover supper and it would be with them somehow for a week. Jesus was with Jerusalem the week leading to the passover supper

How are your sins or the sins of the world health with in your view?

"Kings will shut their mouths because of Him" "He will sprinkle many nations' Isaiah 52
You are making a mistake that many Christians make--confusing the Yom Kippur Sacrifice of Atonement with the Festal Burnt Offering of Passover.

Being Jewish, of course John the Baptist has no real meaning for me. Technically, there is no "lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world." The closest thing to such would be the Yom Kippur sacrifice, which takes away the sins of Israel.

Christians often, as you have, confuse this with the Korban sacrifice at Passover. It is to remember the lambs the Israelites ate and smeared the blood on the doorposts of their homes so that the Angel of death would pass over their homes. It had nothing to do with sin or atonement. Christians do borrow from the imagery to say that Jesus is like the lamb because his "sacrifice" allows Christians to escape eternal death.

But truly, let's not mix our metaphors. Such a basic lack of knowledge shows a disregard for the religion that Jesus practiced and that God ordained in the very Bible that Christians use.

But as far as , "the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world?" It just doesn't exist in the Tanakh. The phrase only exists in the Gospel of John, and is only a Christian concept.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
You are making a mistake that many Christians make--confusing the Yom Kippur Sacrifice of Atonement with the Festal Burnt Offering of Passover.

Being Jewish, of course John the Baptist has no real meaning for me. Technically, there is no "lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world." The closest thing to such would be the Yom Kippur sacrifice, which takes away the sins of Israel.

Christians often, as you have, confuse this with the Korban sacrifice at Passover. It is to remember the lambs the Israelites ate and smeared the blood on the doorposts of their homes so that the Angel of death would pass over their homes. It had nothing to do with sin or atonement. Christians do borrow from the imagery to say that Jesus is like the lamb because his "sacrifice" allows Christians to escape eternal death.

But truly, let's not mix our metaphors. Such a basic lack of knowledge shows a disregard for the religion that Jesus practiced and that God ordained in the very Bible that Christians use.

But as far as , "the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world?" It just doesn't exist in the Tanakh. The phrase only exists in the Gospel of John, and is only a Christian concept.


Inspired by the animals that died that God made skins for to cover Adam's shame so to speak

Inspired by the sacrifice for the world Noah made after the flood after which God promised never to destroy the earth with a flood?

Inspired by the animal the was caught in the thickets who Abraham saw after the angel spared Isaac?

Inspired by the passover lamb?

however Rashi may disagree with you

If Jesus is our atonement, why did He die at Passover instead of the Day of Atonement?
"Rashi, a well-respected medieval Jewish commentator, has to say: “I see the Paschal blood and propitiate you. . . . I mercifully take pity on you by means of the Paschal blood and the blood of circumcision, and I propitiate your souls” (Ex. R. 15, 35b, 35a)."

But in my opinion there is the one time atonement of the cross and the intersesory work of Jesus before the Father. so I think Hebrews in the New Testament suggests that in the Old testament the day of atonement is one occurrence per year, Jesus is continually interceding for his believers before God

So I take Passover matching somewhat with the cross and Yon Kippur matching with Jesus continual intersession before the Father
 
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whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Rashi, a well-respected medieval Jewish commentator, has to say: “I see the Paschal blood and propitiate you. . . . I mercifully take pity on you by means of the Paschal blood and the blood of circumcision, and I propitiate your souls” (Ex. R. 15, 35b, 35a).

If Jesus is our atonement, why did He die at Passover instead of the Day of Atonement?

But Matt Caps in Christianity Today makes a strong case here for the Passover being a type of atonement:

The movement of the Israelites from slaves of Pharaoh to servants of the Lord involves divine redemption; it also involves the obedient response of God's people to His word. The Passover is both bloody and beautiful. God's judgment and salvation are clearly displayed in God's actions and in the symbolism of the Passover ritual.
  • Atonement: The slaughtered lamb redeemed the people by becoming a substitute for the Israelite firstborn. The lamb died in their place (Ex. 12:27).
  • Purification: The smearing of the blood purified those within the house. The application of the blood with hyssop is significant here (Ex. 12:22). All throughout the Old Testament hyssop is associated with ritual purification (Lev. 14:4,6,4,9,51,52; Num. 19:6,18).
  • Sanctification: The feasting on the meat signified the sanctification of God's people. The Israelites were consecrated as they consumed the sacrifice (Ex. 12:46-48).
see The Atonement and the Passover: Exodus 12 by Matt Capps
 
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IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Inspired by the animals that died that God made skins for to cover Adam's shame so to speak

Inspired by the sacrifice for the world Noah made after the flood after which God promised never to destroy the earth with a flood?

Inspired by the animal the was caught in the thickets who Abraham saw after the angel spared Isaac?

Inspired by the passover lamb?

however Rashi may disagree with you

If Jesus is our atonement, why did He die at Passover instead of the Day of Atonement?
"Rashi, a well-respected medieval Jewish commentator, has to say: “I see the Paschal blood and propitiate you. . . . I mercifully take pity on you by means of the Paschal blood and the blood of circumcision, and I propitiate your souls” (Ex. R. 15, 35b, 35a)."

But in my opinion there is the one time atonement of the cross and the intersesory work of Jesus before the Father. so I think Hebrews in the New Testament suggests that in the Old testament the day of atonement is one occurrence per year, Jesus is continually interceding for his believers before God

So I take Passover matching somewhat with the cross and Yon Kippur matching with Jesus continual intersession before the Father
I'm not sure what you think the animals God killed to clothe Adam and Eve or Noah's sacrifice etc. have to do with Jesus' death or Passover. You are blurring separate things together simply because they involve blood. You might as well throw in nose bleeds and hernia operations.

Jesus was arrested by the Sanhedrin during Passover because they were afraid he would cause a ruckus among the people and the Romans would crack down on everyone during the holy days.

Of course every Jew knows who Rashi is, but I have no idea what Ex. R. 15, 35b, 35a is. It looks like a citation to the Talmud, but I could find no reference to it online, and you provided no link. It's obvious that you pasted from a Christian site, rather than directly from the Talmud.

I'm not sure if such a quote actually exists. Christian sites can't be trusted. I CAN tell you that the Passover sacrifice and its blood on their doorposts represents what the Israelites were asked by God to do, and in exchange God had the Angel of Death pass over their homes. So I'm not sure if "propitiate" is the best word, but certainly God blessed them for their obedience. Propitiate means to win or regain the favor of (a god, spirit, or person) by doing something that pleases them. It doesn't necessarily mean the forgiveness of sins, although it can mean that as well as other things. I would say that having the Angel of Death pass you by was an example of God showing his favor.

It's an example of Christians taking something Jewish, and seeing in it something Christian that isn't actually there. It's like seeing bunny rabbits and castle in the clouds or the Virgin Mary on a piece of toast.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Clearly there is an analogy between freedom from slavery and freedom from sin

And there is an analogy between exodus and the second exodus (where your sins are thrown into the sea)


As far as sin offerings being eaten, they may be eaten by priests (see Wiki)
and the church is 'a kingdom of priests' in fulfillment to the promise 'you shall be kingdom of priests' which never was fulfilled in the Old Testament

On Yom Kippur—the Day of Atonement—some of the blood would be sprinkled in front of the veil covering the entrance to the Holy of Holies when the blood would be sprinkled in front of the mercy seat; this was done seven times. The remainder of the blood was poured out at the base of the altar, and the earthen vessel that had contained it would be smashed.

The remaining flesh of the animal (in later rabbinical interpretation as one of the twenty-four kohanic gifts) was later consumed by the Kohen and his family, except when the priest himself was the offerer (such as in community offerings, and in the case of the Day of Atonement), when it would be burnt at a ritually clean location outside the Temple sanctuary.[21] Leviticus 6:26 stipulates that "the priest who offers it for sin shall eat it. In a holy place it shall be eaten, in the court of the tabernacle of meeting",[22] a point repeated at Leviticus 7:7, whereas Leviticus 6:29 allows that "all the males among the priests may eat it",
 
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whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Sin offerings were not eaten by the offerer.

The Exodus salvation was hardly limited to political freedom for Israel

In the biggest picture the Exodus passover relates to the judgment of the world

In prior plagues God made a distinction between Israel and Egypt and knew exactly who lived where. A general judgement was upon all the world and the difference was whether or not the blood of the lamb was seen. No blood no deliverance. If you're not inside a home covered by the blood you die.

No one in the house was even supposed to go outside the house that night
 

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
The Exodus salvation was hardly limited to political freedom for Israel

In the biggest picture the Exodus passover relates to the judgment of the world

In prior plagues God made a distinction between Israel and Egypt and knew exactly who lived where. A general judgement was upon all the world and the difference was whether or not the blood of the lamb was seen. No blood no deliverance. If you're not inside a home covered by the blood you die.

No one in the house was even supposed to go outside the house that night

You missed the point. The OP was suggesting that the Passover lamb was slain because of sin, but the Passover lamb is eaten by the family which offered it and their guests. Sin offerings are not eaten by the offerer.
 
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