Identifying the 144,000

Shiranui117 said:

I'm not "shutting it in a steel cage and putting it at the bottom of the ocean marked by a single, unlit buoy". I'm stating the facts of what we know about the book, which isn't much.

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I'm not saying you did. That comment was directed at the authors. They thought they had something to say, apparently, else why write the book? But they made sure it was so wrapped in puzzle and symbolism that ________. Fill in the blank with anything except that they made their point(s) well known and accessible. And is that a "success" on their part, do you think? Is that what they were going for? Is that what God would like His "word" to be represented by?

shmogie said:

Nope, not at all. Our motive is simple. We are good citizens, pay our taxes and most who died in all the wars of the Republic were Christians.

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The fact that you are "good citizens" and "pay your taxes" has very little to do with your religion - as much as you may beg to differ.

shmogie said:

We respect everyone ´s rights, all of them under the Constitution.

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Again - I would say this has nothing to do with your religion.

shmogie said:

We desire to be left alone by the world to exercise our right to practice our religion as we see fit. In all things we are bound by the laws of the land, we may despise some of them, but we respect them.

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Now this is an ironic bit. When your brand of religion (at least the greater category) seems the most prone to proselytize of any religion on the planet.

shmogie said:

Our only faith interaction with non believers is to share the Gospel, for them to reject or accept as they choose.

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This is certainly not the only thing I've born witness to. Threats of damnation, people getting really, really huffy, people attempting to guide and steer legislation, people protesting and complaining to no foreseeable end, people leaving their children's ailments untreated in favor of healing by God, people duping others for monetary gain. Let me know where you get your rose-colored glasses from. They seem like they must be pretty good ones.

shmogie said:

So our motives are questionable, please tell me about that, on the face of it your statemnet is pure baloney

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Do you do it for the people you talk about, or because God calls you to do it and you want that sweet spot in "heaven?" Do you really care about my autonomy and freedom (that you believe is given to me by God, remember?), or would you rather I just believed like you so that things were easier? Do you even care if what you speak is the truth, knowing that you have no inter-subjectively verifiable evidence, or any way to sufficiently demonstrate the truth of your claims, or are you just afraid of finding out you've wasted years of your life? Yeah... your motives have questions floating all around them.

A Vestigial Mote said:

The fact that you are "good citizens" and "pay your taxes" has very little to do with your religion - as much as you may beg to differ.


Again - I would say this has nothing to do with your religion.


Now this is an ironic bit. When your brand of religion (at least the greater category) seems the most prone to proselytize of any religion on the planet.

This is certainly not the only thing I've born witness to. Threats of damnation, people getting really, really huffy, people attempting to guide and steer legislation, people protesting and complaining to no foreseeable end, people leaving their children's ailments untreated in favor of healing by God, people duping others for monetary gain. Let me know where you get your rose-colored glasses from. They seem like they must be pretty good ones.

Do you do it for the people you talk about, or because God calls you to do it and you want that sweet spot in "heaven?" Do you really care about my autonomy and freedom (that you believe is given to me by God, remember?), or would you rather I just believed like you so that things were easier? Do you even care if what you speak is the truth, knowing that you have no inter-subjectively verifiable evidence, or any way to sufficiently demonstrate the truth of your claims, or are you just afraid of finding out you've wasted years of your life? Yeah... your motives have questions floating all around them.

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Lets begin and try and answer your questions and questions.

First, the most ironic. You are concerned about verifiable evidence to support my claims. You are big on evidence right ?

What evidence is there for the singularity that allegedly existed before the big bang, that was the cause for the creation of the universe ? Would you please cite that evidence ?

Perhaps you believe in another idea about the creation of the universe, multi verse ?, brane theory, open or closed universe ? Please cite the verifiable evidence for whatever you believe to be the cause for the creation of the universe.

How about the creation of life ? So far, as far I can tell, there is only one idea desperately held on to by non believers, abiogenesis. There is no observed, created, or known process for how this works, yet it is taught as fact. The earth is proposed to be essentially a rock undergoing rain and lightning and this runoff creates a sea where life pops up, or maybe it was a thermal vent, or maybe in clay, or maybe in bubbles.

Please cite the verifiable evidence for how this occurred, any idea you like. Lab created dsimle [polymers aren´t verifiable evidence for abiogenesis, the creation pf life from non living chemicals, but go ahead show me the evidence. A precursor cell fossil would be interesting, or an exact rendering based upon geology of the percentages of actual chemicals in the precursor environment, and their combinations to create life would be good.

Fact is, based upon verifiable evidence, you haven a clue as to how the universe or life came into existence. Dress up a pig with scientific language, and highly intelligent PhDś telling you it isn´t a pig, you still have a pig.

My pig is just as pretty as yours

You rightly complain about negative behavior of alleged Christians. I complain of the same things. A person can call themselves a shovel, that doesn´t make them one.

There is a standard, given by Christ as to how to tell a true believer. He said by their fruit you will know them. He also said there is a wide path that many walk thinging they are Christians, yet in the end, they are found to be non Christian.

Paul clearly enunciates the Fruit Christ was talking about. Love, patience, kindness, willingness to help etc., etc, etc.

The traits you list are anathema to what we are told our behavior should be, so draw your own conclusions.

You seem concerned that Christians share the Gospel. Why do we do that ?

Well, we were told to do that, by Christ. The why is important. The true Christian believes that Christ, in love, wants the entire world saved from both the end of the world as we know it, and literally death. We, out of this concern, want people to hear the simple message that cas save them.

I have reached the age where friends and people I know are dropping off the twig.

When one dies who for, whatever reason, I didn´t mention the Gospel to them, I shudder. If they are lost, I could share responsibility for that when I am judged.

Sure, I would like to live forever as promised, but that is up to God, so I don´t worry about it.

I was an atheist once myself. I had all the arguments against Christianity, and probably more, that you have. I believed humans were just animals all scruffing for survival with each other and all the other animals, with oblivion at the end of the scruffing.

A philosophy course led me down some interesting roads and led me to some interesting questions.

In the end, I found that the Christian philosophy of life is a rewarding way to live, and I don´t have to judge my worth by money, the size of my house, or the car I drive.

Being concerned for people, giving, helping, volunteering is rewarding in itself. Being an agent of peace to others in a world that rips at ones sense of peace is a high reward.

I believe it was Blaise Pascal who said," if you are right, and I am wrong, I lose nothing, if I am right and you are wrong, you lose everything ¨

So, to the atheists, I say bring it if you feel you have to. I have listened to you for years in this forum, you intimidate me not, you sway me not. I believe most are insecure about their "faith" and must constantly re confirm it by raging at me as a Christian target. Really, no big deal.

shmogie said:

What evidence is there for the singularity that allegedly existed before the big bang, that was the cause for the creation of the universe ? Would you please cite that evidence ?

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I don't care about this. It doesn't affect my day to day life. In fact, knowledge or lack thereof on this topic affects absolutely no part of my life. At least not that I realize or care about.

shmogie said:

Perhaps you believe in another idea about the creation of the universe, multi verse ?, brane theory, open or closed universe ? Please cite the verifiable evidence for whatever you believe to be the cause for the creation of the universe.

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Do you believe I HAVE TO have an explanation for the "creation" of the universe? Seriously?

shmogie said:

How about the creation of life ? So far, as far I can tell, there is only one idea desperately held on to by non believers, abiogenesis. There is no observed, created, or known process for how this works, yet it is taught as fact. The earth is proposed to be essentially a rock undergoing rain and lightning and this runoff creates a sea where life pops up, or maybe it was a thermal vent, or maybe in clay, or maybe in bubbles.

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Once again - this doesn't truly matter. Would it be cool to know the origins? Sure? Do I have to know the origins in order to live my life? Don't make me laugh. I DON'T KNOW. A statement that is a billion times more honest than any theistic story of how the universe was "created."

shmogie said:

Please cite the verifiable evidence for how this occurred, any idea you like. Lab created dsimle [polymers aren´t verifiable evidence for abiogenesis, the creation pf life from non living chemicals, but go ahead show me the evidence. A precursor cell fossil would be interesting, or an exact rendering based upon geology of the percentages of actual chemicals in the precursor environment, and their combinations to create life would be good.

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I'm not going to make a positive claim about how the universe or life had their starts. I don't know how it happened, and I am open to evidenced explanations. Until then, I'll leave the "claiming to know" bit to people like you.

shmogie said:

Fact is, based upon verifiable evidence, you haven a clue as to how the universe or life came into existence.

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Once again - I DON'T HAVE TO HAVE A CLUE. I don't. Don't, don't, don't, don't, don't. I'm still here, still alive, still capable. Don't need to know this. Doesn't matter if I do or I don't. Would I like to know? Sure. Am I going to accept fantasy as reality just to satisfy that desire? Hell no.

I skimmed the rest of your post and it didn't seem to warrant reply, honestly. The above was too obviously presumptuous and misconstruing what necessarily "need be" for me to even come close to thinking you were in the right frame of mind to be taken seriously anyway.

The Anointed said:

Nah mate, Dan 'The Giant' was sterile, his mother 'Bilhah' was raped by Reuben the first born of Israel, from which rape she conceived and bore a daughter, who she named Hushim.

Bilhah died a few years later and Dan Adopted his little sister 'Hushim' as his own

“The Talmud states, "Whoever brings up an orphan in his home is regarded...as though the child had been born to him." (Sanhedrin 119b).” In other words, the adopted child is to be treated as a child born to the father of that house." Where ever a man has no sons, and his descendants are counted from his daughter, she is given the appellation "BEN." Hushim ben Dan is the sister and adopted daughter of Dan, who married into the tribe of Benjamin and through whose son Abitub, the tribe of Dan is counted.

Hushim was married to a man from the tribe of Benjamin, whose name was Shaharaim to who she bore two sons, Abitub and Elpaal, who are also called Shuppim and Huppim. Shaharaim divorced Husim, before Jacob took his family into Egypt, and Moved into the Land of Moab, where he sired sven sons to a woman named Hodesh, It was from the descendants of Hodesh, that King David's mother came..

All the descendants of Hushim, are descendants of Shaharaim, and are therefore Benjaminites.

Knowing that Dan was sterile, Jacob divided Joseph into two tribes, adopting Joseph's two sons as his own. Thereby maintaining the 12 tribes that are recorded as the 144,000 in Revelation.

King Saul, who stood a head taller than any other Israelite was a descendant of Hushim's second son Elpaal.

'Abi' means 'Father' and the tribe of Dan are counted from the descendants of ABItub, the first born of Hushim

To be continued.....One of the great grandsons is having trouble with his bike. Be back later, if time permits.

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Dan, Type of Antichrist.

But Dan became the very type of evil-doing. He was placed to the north (Num. ii. 25), this being the region of darkness and evil (Jer. i. 14), because of his idolatry which wrapped the world in darkness (Num. R. ii.). Still further goes a tradition which identifies the serpent and the lion (Gen. xlix. 17 and Deut. xxxiii. 22) with Belial (see the literature in Bousset's "Antichrist," 1895, pp. 87, 113). Irenæus ("Adversus Hæreses," v. 302), Hippolytus ("De Christo et Antichristo," pp. 14, 15), and other Church fathers have a tradition, which can not but be of Jewish origin, that the Antichrist comes from the tribe of Dan, and base it upon Jer. viii. 16: "The snorting of his [the enemy's] horses was heard from Dan"—a verse referred also in Gen. R. xliii. to Dan's idolatry. Irenæus remarks that Dan is, in view of this tradition, not in the Apocalypse (Rev. vii. 5-7) among the 144,000 saved ones of the twelve tribes. Nor is the omission of Dan in I Chron. iv. et seq. unintentional. Bousset, who has a special chapter devoted to the Dan Antichrist legend (l.c. pp. 112-115), believes that the connection of Dan with Belial in Test. Patr., Dan, 5 points to the same tradition. This seems to find corroboration in Targ. Yer. to Deut. xxxiv. 3, where the war against Ahriman ( )and Gog or Magog in the vision of Moses seems to refer to Dan, 1 (compare Sifre, l.c. to ; see also Dan, in Ten Tribes, The Lost.)


Why Is the Tribe of Dan Not Mentioned in Revelation 7:4-8?

Fool said:

Dan, Type of Antichrist.

But Dan became the very type of evil-doing. He was placed to the north (Num. ii. 25), this being the region of darkness and evil (Jer. i. 14), because of his idolatry which wrapped the world in darkness (Num. R. ii.). Still further goes a tradition which identifies the serpent and the lion (Gen. xlix. 17 and Deut. xxxiii. 22) with Belial (see the literature in Bousset's "Antichrist," 1895, pp. 87, 113). Irenæus ("Adversus Hæreses," v. 302), Hippolytus ("De Christo et Antichristo," pp. 14, 15), and other Church fathers have a tradition, which can not but be of Jewish origin, that the Antichrist comes from the tribe of Dan, and base it upon Jer. viii. 16: "The snorting of his [the enemy's] horses was heard from Dan"—a verse referred also in Gen. R. xliii. to Dan's idolatry. Irenæus remarks that Dan is, in view of this tradition, not in the Apocalypse (Rev. vii. 5-7) among the 144,000 saved ones of the twelve tribes. Nor is the omission of Dan in I Chron. iv. et seq. unintentional. Bousset, who has a special chapter devoted to the Dan Antichrist legend (l.c. pp. 112-115), believes that the connection of Dan with Belial in Test. Patr., Dan, 5 points to the same tradition. This seems to find corroboration in Targ. Yer. to Deut. xxxiv. 3, where the war against Ahriman ( )and Gog or Magog in the vision of Moses seems to refer to Dan, 1 (compare Sifre, l.c. to ; see also Dan, in Ten Tribes, The Lost.)


Why Is the Tribe of Dan Not Mentioned in Revelation 7:4-8?

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The myths and legends about the tribe of Dan are endless and fanciful.

"The Serpent's Trail" -- The Mysterious Tribe of Dan

The tribe of Dan was the first tribe of Israel to plunge into pagan IDOLATRY! Over the centuries, they have become steeped in idolatry and image worship -- so much so that they will be slow to repent of their sins and to come out of the prevalent end-time idolatry of Roman Catholicism, which numbers over 900 million adherents around the world, today.

Thus Dan, who was a "lion's whelp" who would "leap from Bashan," leaped all the way to Ireland, where historians explain that the early settlers were known as the "Tuatha de Danaan" -- literally, the "tribe of Dan."

The Greeks called them the Danoi, the Romans called them Danaus.

In Ireland, today, we find their customary evidence -- their place names -- in abundance.

Such names as Dans-Lough, Dan-Sower, Dan-Monism, Dun-dalke, Dun-drum, Don-egal Bay, Don-egal City, Dun-glow and Lon-don-derry, as well as Din-gle, Dun-garven and Duns-more, which means "MORE DANS."

Continued

"The Serpent's Trail" -- The Mysterious Tribe of Dan

Of course, the most famous Irish ballad of all time is the song, "Danny Boy."

It should be plain that the country of Ireland is replete, filled with names which derive from the ancient patriarch of the Hebrews -- DAN, the son of Jacob!

It should be plain that the ancient Danites settled in Ireland, and most of them dwell in that land, today.

The tribe of Dan was the first tribe to plunge into idolatry, as the book of Judges reveals (Judges 18).

They became ensnared in this sin, and their descendants, today, the Irish, are among the most superstitious and idolatrous people on the earth.

They today practice the Roman Catholic religion, and are among the most devout and fervid Catholics on earth.

This, however, is partly due to the fact that a strong Canaanite element is mixed in with the people of Southern Ireland.

The Canaanites and their descendants have always gravitated towards the various forms of sun worship.

• It will require the Second Coming of the Messiah to bring them back out of the idolatry they are steeped in, and that is why the tribe of Dan is left out of the 144,000 servants of YEHOVAH God mentioned in the book of Revelation.

"The Serpent's Trail" -- The Mysterious Tribe of Dan

sooda said:

The myths and legends about the tribe of Dan are endless and fanciful.

"The Serpent's Trail" -- The Mysterious Tribe of Dan

The tribe of Dan was the first tribe of Israel to plunge into pagan IDOLATRY! Over the centuries, they have become steeped in idolatry and image worship -- so much so that they will be slow to repent of their sins and to come out of the prevalent end-time idolatry of Roman Catholicism, which numbers over 900 million adherents around the world, today.

Thus Dan, who was a "lion's whelp" who would "leap from Bashan," leaped all the way to Ireland, where historians explain that the early settlers were known as the "Tuatha de Danaan" -- literally, the "tribe of Dan."

The Greeks called them the Danoi, the Romans called them Danaus.

In Ireland, today, we find their customary evidence -- their place names -- in abundance.

Such names as Dans-Lough, Dan-Sower, Dan-Monism, Dun-dalke, Dun-drum, Don-egal Bay, Don-egal City, Dun-glow and Lon-don-derry, as well as Din-gle, Dun-garven and Duns-more, which means "MORE DANS."

Continued

"The Serpent's Trail" -- The Mysterious Tribe of Dan

Of course, the most famous Irish ballad of all time is the song, "Danny Boy."

It should be plain that the country of Ireland is replete, filled with names which derive from the ancient patriarch of the Hebrews -- DAN, the son of Jacob!

It should be plain that the ancient Danites settled in Ireland, and most of them dwell in that land, today.

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from my eastern philosophy studies i learned iran and ireland come from the same root word, aryan. erin is another name for ireland.


These ancient Irish genomes each show unequivocal evidence for massive migration. The early farmer has a majority ancestry originating ultimately in the Middle East, where agriculture was invented. The Bronze Age genomes are different again with about a third of their ancestry coming from ancient sources in the Pontic Steppe.

"There was a great wave of genome change that swept into Europe from above the Black Sea into Bronze Age Europe and we now know it washed all the way to the shores of its most westerly island," said Professor of Population Genetics in Trinity College Dublin, Dan Bradley, who led the study, "and this degree of genetic change invites the possibility of other associated changes, perhaps even the introduction of language ancestral to western Celtic tongues."


and


Iran as the Historical Tri-Continental Bridge, and Ireland? An Ethno-Cultural and Etymological Interconnectedness


and


Ireland underwent a massive prehistoric wave of immigration from the Middle East and eastern Europe, which could explain how modern farming arrived in the region, researchers said in a study released on Monday.

Deeje said:

Apparently atheists cannot see something that is in plain sight to any who have really been enlightened by the Bible's teachings...this requires something from God.....his holy spirit.

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It requires indoctrination. Atheists either haven't been indoctrinated or have overcome their indoctrination. Usually the latter.

Deeje said:

The scriptures themselves are used to separate the sheep from the goats...the wheat from the weeds. This includes those who claim to be Christians but who by their conduct and accepted beliefs, belie that claim. A Christian is not identified by what they say, but according to how closely they follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. He covers this in Matthew 7:21-23.....there are "many" that he has never recognized as his own. There are "many" on the road to destruction as well. (Matthew 7:13-14) Only "few" find the road to life...why? Because it is 'cramped and narrow', meaning that its got rules that some might find 'restrictive'. It is narrow because you can't bend the rules to suit yourself.

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Right, the old "Real Christian" argument. In the minds of the majority of Christians, no JW is a real Christian, so I don't think that argument works well for you.

Deeje said:

Doesn't the same criteria apply to you atheists?
Who created the universe? Who wrote your science textbooks? Someone who can't be wrong?

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Noone wrote the science books. Science books represent the accumulated knowledge of mankind.

Science progresses toward an understanding of the universe. We went from the earth as the center of everything to the earth revolving around the unmoving sun to realizing that the sun was a star among billions of other stars.

Deeje said:

Is it impossible for a Creator whose power is so immense to exist because science can't measure him?

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Which "him"? Which god? The one you favor? Or are you referring to Shiva or Allah or any of the tens of thousands of gods that are or were worshipped? All gods that sprang from the minds of man.

Christians cannot even agree on the attributes of their god.

Deeje said:

Is it really impossible for the human race to descend from two humans when you guys believe that all living things descended from a single celled organism that just happened by chance to pop into existence one day and had the ability to eventually become a dinosaur? Where is the proof that this ever happened? It is taken on faith.

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When you use terms like "chance to pop into existence" and "proof" you show your ignorance of science.

Nevertheless, there is far more evidence for evolution than there is for a god existing forever.

Deeje said:

Could or would a God of justice perform a mass judgment on humanity as he claims he will do in the near future? Has he done it before? If the answer is "yes" then he can do it again. He is the arbiter over life and death.

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Christians have been shaking in their boots for over 2000 years waiting for the "judgement". For over 2000 years prophets have been saying "any day now - in the near future". If I'm not mistaken that was done in the early days of JW by prophets of JW. Yet here we are.

Deeje said:

We decide what to believe about those things. No one is standing there with a big stick forcing us to make our decisions...we do that all by ourselves. We are granted that freedom because it forms the basis upon which our judgment rests. I don't believe denying that or not will not alter the outcome.

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You believe those things because the leaders of your religious sect have instilled that into you since you were born.

Deeje said:

Ah yes...."Christians". There are wheat and weeds...remember? We choose who to believe for our own reasons. It is those reasons which tell God who we really are. Compromise is very handy when one needs to save face.

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Many Christians would describe JW as the weed.

Deeje said:

You have missed the point. Calling yourself a "Christian" is easy....living as one is not, especially in a world where ridicule is used to dissuade people from their faith....it is a favorite tactic to use a person's self worth against them.....but even then, their choices are very telling. Whose acceptance is more important to them?
I believe that every decision we make is a declaration of who we are.

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Every Baptist, evangelical, protestant, catholic believes exactly the same thing, they are the ones living as true Christians.

Deeje said:

we put faith in God whom we cannot produce as evidence either.....so the choice boils down to what suits our own worldview.

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Your worldview was shaped by indoctrination long before you even knew a "choice" existed.

Deeje said:

I see a lot of atheists who are refugees from Christendom. I too an a refugee but I could never deny the existence of my Creator....nature itself will not allow it. I abandoned the religious system who can't agree on anything in favor of one that actually sticks to the Bible to furnish the answers to everything, despite what others may believe. That was my choice.

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Those you refer to as "refugees from Christendom" would tell you that a huge weight has been lifted from their shoulders when they overcame their indoctrination.

Deeje said:

You don't see that it works both ways? Are you not as indoctrinated as you think we are? How many years have you been feeding your own indoctrination?

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When you were one, two, three years old you were saying prayers, you were told about god, you were constantly reminded that god was real.

No atheist is exposed to endless hours of evolution and astronomy at those ages.

Early childhood indoctrination is very powerful. Even today, you speak with the regional intonations that you were exposed to as a very young child.

Deeje said:

I am a person who needs reasons and I do not take anything at face value, but prefer to look beneath the surface to ascertain what is reasonable and rational

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I'm sure you believe that.

Deeje said:

It is a hope based on what the Bible promises. If you have no faith in God or the Bible then the promises are empty....but for us they are filled with the hope of something better to come. I would not swap that for the finality and hopelessness of atheism if you gave me 10 million dollars. What have atheists got to look forward to? Just more of this rot....perpetuated by human greed and ineptitude.
Who do they have to trust for their future? The ones who created the present...... no thanks.

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When you make comments like "the finality and hopelessness of atheism " you are showing you don't have the slightest concept of atheists or atheism.

Fool said:

from my eastern philosophy studies i learned iran and ireland come from the same root word, aryan. erin is another name for ireland.


These ancient Irish genomes each show unequivocal evidence for massive migration. The early farmer has a majority ancestry originating ultimately in the Middle East, where agriculture was invented. The Bronze Age genomes are different again with about a third of their ancestry coming from ancient sources in the Pontic Steppe.

"There was a great wave of genome change that swept into Europe from above the Black Sea into Bronze Age Europe and we now know it washed all the way to the shores of its most westerly island," said Professor of Population Genetics in Trinity College Dublin, Dan Bradley, who led the study, "and this degree of genetic change invites the possibility of other associated changes, perhaps even the introduction of language ancestral to western Celtic tongues."


and


Iran as the Historical Tri-Continental Bridge, and Ireland? An Ethno-Cultural and Etymological Interconnectedness


and


Ireland underwent a massive prehistoric wave of immigration from the Middle East and eastern Europe, which could explain how modern farming arrived in the region, researchers said in a study released on Monday.

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Serpent memories again.. This rings true to me. I have Iranian girlfriends named Iran.

Iran as the Historical Tri-Continental Bridge, and Ireland? An Ethno-Cultural and Etymological Interconnectedness

sooda said:

Serpent memories again.. This rings true to me. I have Iranian girlfriends named Iran.

Iran as the Historical Tri-Continental Bridge, and Ireland? An Ethno-Cultural and Etymological Interconnectedness

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cernunonos is depicted holding a torq in his right hand a serpent in the left. he has been depicted sitting in the half lotus with antlers.

celtic mythology and druids were big on serpents and dragons.


Serpents and dragons in Irish mythology


In a poem of Taliessin, translated by Davies, in his Appendix No. 6, is the following enumeration of a Druid's titles:---

"I am a Druid; I am an architect; I am a prophet;

I am a serpent" (Gnadr).

From the word "Gnadr" is derived "adder," the name of a species of snake. Gnadr was probably pronounced like "adder" with a nasal aspirate.

Fool said:

cernunonos is depicted holding a torq in his right hand a serpent in the left. he has been depicted sitting in the half lotus with antlers.

celtic mythology and druids were big on serpents and dragons.


Serpents and dragons in Irish mythology


In a poem of Taliessin, translated by Davies, in his Appendix No. 6, is the following enumeration of a Druid's titles:---

"I am a Druid; I am an architect; I am a prophet;

I am a serpent" (Gnadr).

From the word "Gnadr" is derived "adder," the name of a species of snake. Gnadr was probably pronounced like "adder" with a nasal aspirate.

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Fascinating.. This may keep me busy all day. Thanks.

Serpent temples in the British Isles would tie them to Egypt and the Levant before Genesis.

A Vestigial Mote said:

I'm not saying you did. That comment was directed at the authors. They thought they had something to say, apparently, else why write the book? But they made sure it was so wrapped in puzzle and symbolism that ________. Fill in the blank with anything except that they made their point(s) well known and accessible. And is that a "success" on their part, do you think? Is that what they were going for? Is that what God would like His "word" to be represented by?

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Ahh, my apologies for misunderstanding you then. In that case, I can get what you're saying. It's also perfectly fair to ask whether the Book of Revelation was ever intended to be read by anyone outside of the small target audience who would understand the symbolisms involved. Questions like the ones you raised are why Revelation wasn't readily accepted into the Biblical canon until the 500's or even later throughout much of Christianity, long after Byzantine lectionaries were written. Even the Coptic Orthodox Church reads the Book of Revelation on only one day a year (Holy Saturday).

Shiranui117 said:

Ahh, my apologies for misunderstanding you then. In that case, I can get what you're saying. It's also perfectly fair to ask whether the Book of Revelation was ever intended to be read by anyone outside of the small target audience who would understand the symbolisms involved. Questions like the ones you raised are why Revelation wasn't readily accepted into the Biblical canon until the 500's or even later throughout much of Christianity, long after Byzantine lectionaries were written. Even the Coptic Orthodox Church reads the Book of Revelation on only one day a year (Holy Saturday).

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The answer seems obvious to me.

The target audience of the Revelation letter which was to be read aloud to the 7 churches of the first century would have absolutely understood the symbolism and political implications of their reality.

Faithofchristian said:

The 144,000 are the true Israel and not the false Israel.

As Paul written in the book of Romans 9:6
6--"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel"

Therefore they are not all of Israel which are of Israel.
This being that there are two groups of people in Israel, one being the true Israel and the other being the false Israel.

So you have what Christ Jesus referred to as the good fig tree and the bad fig tree. That shall grow together until Christ Jesus returns.

As for the 144,000, they will come about during the tribulation, When God's chosen elect people start prophesying which then the 144,000 will come out of Babylon, This being out of confusion.

Then the 144,000 will stand with God's elect people to fight against the AntiChrist during the tribulation, Which is about to come upon all the world to try them that live upon the earth, For this is the hour of temptation spoken by Christ Jesus in
Revelation 3:10

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The Anointed said:

Romans 9:6
6--"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel"

For the tribe of Benjamin no longer exists. The other tribes of Israel slaughtered the tribe of Benjamin. Judges 20: 48; "The Israelites turned back against the rest of the Benjaminites and killed them all-----men, women and children, and animals as well. They burned every town in the area.

The six hundred survivors, were the Danites who were forced to live in the hill country of Benjamin, they were given 600 wives with who the moved up north into the land of Sidon, etc.

The Israelites then created a pseudo tribe of Benjamin from the children of women from the tribe of Benjamin who had married into the other tribes before the war.​

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The Tribe of Benjamin does exist.

Even disciple Paul is of the tribe of Benjamin.
Romans 11:1--" I say then, Has God cast away his people? God forbid,
For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin"

Therefore the Tribe of Benjamin still exist
As disciple Paul himself is of the tribe of Benjamin.

Revelation 7:8---"Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand"

That even in the book of Revelation Christ Jesus has the tribe of Benjamin listed.

So how is it that you say the tribe of Benjamin does not exist, when in fact Paul himself is of the tribe of Benjamin.
And Christ Jesus himself has the tribe of Benjamin listed in his book of
Revelation 7:8.and will be here on earth at Christ Jesus coming back to earth.

So how is it that you say the tribe of Benjamin does not exist.

Faithofchristian said:

The Tribe of Benjamin does exist.

Even disciple Paul is of the tribe of Benjamin.
Romans 11:1--" I say then, Has God cast away his people? God forbid,
For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin"

Therefore the Tribe of Benjamin still exist
As disciple Paul himself is of the tribe of Benjamin.

Revelation 7:8---"Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand"

That even in the book of Revelation Christ Jesus has the tribe of Benjamin listed.

So how is it that you say the tribe of Benjamin does not exist, when in fact Paul himself is of the tribe of Benjamin.
And Christ Jesus himself has the tribe of Benjamin listed in his book of
Revelation 7:8.and will be here on earth at Christ Jesus coming back to earth.

So how is it that you say the tribe of Benjamin does not exist.

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There are at least two legends about the tribe of Benjamin.

Are Afghans The Lost Tribe? | Neshika
נְשִׁיקָה
Are Afghans The Lost Tribe?the-lost-tribe

Nov 08, 2016 · Even some Muslim scholars and writers accept this. The Afghan Royal family (exiled in 1973) also claim to trace their roots to the Tribe of Benjamin.

The Pashtun, the main Afghan ethnic group and Taliban supporters, also believe they are descended from the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel, and later converted to Islam.




THE TRIBE OF BENJAMIN

...and the Latin Connection

...Where are they now?

If you are Hispanic, you must read this...

WHERE IS THE TRIBE OF BENJAMIN NOW?

The Irish and the Danes claim to be the remnant of the tribe of Dan.

The Irish Tuatha Dé Dannan Connection to the Tribe of Dan ...
https://gnosticwarrior.com/tuatha-de-dannan.html
The Irish Tuatha Dé Dannan Connection to the Tribe of Dan. "The Danites ruled about two centuries until the arrival of the Milesians, which took place, 1000 years before the Christian era.' Thus the date of the arrival of the FIRST COLONY OF DANAANS WOULD BE 1200 B.C., or 85 years after Deborah and Barak's victory,...

sooda said:

There are at least two legends about the tribe of Benjamin.

Are Afghans The Lost Tribe? | Neshika
נְשִׁיקָה
Are Afghans The Lost Tribe?the-lost-tribe

Nov 08, 2016 · Even some Muslim scholars and writers accept this. The Afghan Royal family (exiled in 1973) also claim to trace their roots to the Tribe of Benjamin.

The Pashtun, the main Afghan ethnic group and Taliban supporters, also believe they are descended from the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel, and later converted to Islam.




THE TRIBE OF BENJAMIN

...and the Latin Connection

...Where are they now?

If you are Hispanic, you must read this...

WHERE IS THE TRIBE OF BENJAMIN NOW?

The Irish and the Danes claim to be the remnant of the tribe of Dan.

The Irish Tuatha Dé Dannan Connection to the Tribe of Dan ...
https://gnosticwarrior.com/tuatha-de-dannan.html
The Irish Tuatha Dé Dannan Connection to the Tribe of Dan. "The Danites ruled about two centuries until the arrival of the Milesians, which took place, 1000 years before the Christian era.' Thus the date of the arrival of the FIRST COLONY OF DANAANS WOULD BE 1200 B.C., or 85 years after Deborah and Barak's victory,...

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Maybe you should get a hold of Christ Jesus and tell him that.
Seeing that Christ Jesus has the tribe of Benjamin listed in his book of Revelation and how the tribe of Benjamin will be here at Christ Jesus return.

So how exactly is the tribe of Benjamin lost, seeing the tribe of Benjamin is listed in Christ Jesus book of Revelation.

Revelation 7:8---"Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand"

So how is it your saying about the tribe of Benjamin as being lost.

Maybe you should let Christ Jesus know that the tribe of Benjamin is lost,
But yet Christ Jesus has the tribe of Benjamin listed in his book of Revelation,
As it doesn't look like the tribe of Benjamin is lost.

Faithofchristian said:

Maybe you get a hold of Christ Jesus and tell him that.
Seeing that Christ Jesus has the tribe of Benjamin listed in his book of Revelation and how the tribe of Benjamin will here at Christ Jesus return.

So how exactly is the tribe of Benjamin lost, seeing the tribe of Benjamin is listed in Christ Jesus book of Revelation.

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First, the Book of Judges is a collection of legends, all of doubtful historical content.

However, the book has a theme, which is reiterated—the lack of central authority led to chaos. The tribes of Israel battled each other.

I just read Judges 19–21. It appears that during the period of the Judges, the tribe of Benjamin displayed a spirit of obstinacy in refusing to deliver up the perpetrators of a vile act performed in the city of Gibeah.

This led to civil war with the other tribes, who were determined not to let the wrong go unpunished, and it resulted in the near extermination of the tribe of Benjamin. (Jg 19-21)

Nevertheless, by the method devised by the other tribes for preserving the tribe, Benjamin recovered and grew from about 600 men to nearly 60,000 warriors by the time of David’s kingship.—1Ch 7:6-12.

There are lots of legends.. The tribe of Benjamin are the ancestors of the Afghani Pashtun and/or they are the ancestors of the Spanish.

Why don't you read before you get snippy?