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To Hell With Hell

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
This kind of argument assumes that folk 2000 years ago thought about religion the same was as many 21st C atheists do. Heaven/hell are just evolutions of thought regarding the afterlife that developed further throughout the centuries. Why assume they were invented by people cynically trying to 'keep people in line'? Remember Early Christianity was not a religion of the powerful, but was somewhat subversive.

Early Christianity was popular among the disenfranchised, and the idea that the powerful and corrupt would get the comeuppance might well have been very appealing among those who had no ability to change the status quo. What's more, they got to be among the elect few, a mark of status they would be unlikely to achieve in the physical world.

Also, I'm not sure its history supports the idea that it made people think 'there's nothing people can or should do to change anything in this life' seeing as it has often had the exact opposite effect.

I wasn't referring specifically to early Christianity, but the general idea of hell and the idea of eternal punishment to people who fail to fall in line. Either hell exists or it doesn't. If it doesn't exist, then someone had to invent or contrive it.
 
I wasn't referring specifically to early Christianity, but the general idea of hell and the idea of eternal punishment to people who fail to fall in line. Either hell exists or it doesn't. If it doesn't exist, then someone had to invent or contrive it.

To think that 'someone invented it' is a bit like thinking of the straw that broke the camel's back.

Ideas about the afterlife have existed since time immemorial, these gradually evolved over the centuries rather than someone just announcing "Alright chaps, listen up, if you don't do what I say you'll go to this place called Hell! What's that I hear you say, well let me explain...."

The assumption that such things were invented to control people assumes an all powerful dishonest actor deliberately lying to achieve personal gain. This relies on 2 incorrect assumptions a) that such ideas were the product of a single individual (or perhaps a cabal) b) people in antiquity though about religion through the cynical mindset of irreligious people in modernity.

Of course many people have taken advantage of the concept to serve their own interests, but that is very different form it being 'invented' to perform exactly this role.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Dead Jesus was in hell - Acts of the Apostles 2:27
Jesus taught sleep in death - John 11:11-14
OT teaches sleep in death - Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4
There is No contradiction.
Where there is contradiction is that false clergy teach a religious-myth teaching as being Scripture.
Sorry, try again, the verse that I quoted demonstrated a contradiction. Anyone that claims there are no contradictions in the Bible has to keep themselves blind.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Quote "Those who take part in war, don't have the needed spirit from God, "

Yet they go to war in gods name.
Yep... How alienated they are from Him! Titus 1:16

Quote from clergyman Harry Emerson Fosdick, in his book The Modern Use of the Bible: “Our Western history has been one war after another. We have bred men for war, trained men for war; we have glorified war; we have made warriors our heroes and even in our churches we have put the battle flags. ....With one corner of our mouth we have praised the Prince of Peace and with the other we have glorified war. So well have we succeeded in blending Christ and carnage, the Gospel and organized slaughter, that recently a missionary in an Oriental country, after an address upon Christian goodwill, was taken aside by a native, who said, ‘You must know that the educated people of this country look upon Christianity as a warring, blood-spilling religion." "

At least he recognized the hypocrisy!
 
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MJFlores

Well-Known Member
For the Record: I consider State Sponsored Killing, to be Immoral.

Always.

I do recognize the need for Self Defense, and I see that as a Lessor Evil to allowing someone to simply kill you dead.

But I absotlutely oppose the Death Penalty.

For starters? Because the *best* justice system on Earth? Is still run by fallible humans.

That alone renders any Death Penalty immoral-- because even a 0.0001% failure rate is too much.

Because you cannot undo killing someone....

I find it incredibly ironic that Christians preach of Love and Forgiveness, but are some of the most zealous advocates of KILL'EM! KILL'EM DEAD!

I believe, atheist communist countries do have capital punishment
So religion has nothing to do with it.
The worse thing about it is death penalty could be used for some political agenda.
And carried out without due process

upload_2019-4-16_6-57-13.jpeg


Capital punishment in China. Capital punishment is a legal penalty in the mainland of the People's Republic of China. It is mostly enforced for murder and drug trafficking, and executions are carried out by lethal injection or gun shot.
Capital punishment in China - Wikipedia

The death penalty cannot be applied to juvenile offenders, pregnant women, and women nursing children under 36 months old at the time the crime was committed or being tried. These cases are commuted to life imprisonment. Between August 6, 2013 and June 30, 2016, Vietnam executed 429 people.
Capital punishment in Vietnam - Wikipedia

Capital punishment in prison camps. ... Testimonies describe secret and public executions in North Korean prisons by firing squad, decapitation or by hanging. Executions are used as a means of deterrence, often accompanied by torture.
Capital punishment in North Korea - Wikipedia
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
I would say it's being stuck inside the mind of someone that makes the same post in repetition every few days. Isn't that that definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

What exactly does that accomplish?
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
To think that 'someone invented it' is a bit like thinking of the straw that broke the camel's back.

Ideas about the afterlife have existed since time immemorial, these gradually evolved over the centuries rather than someone just announcing "Alright chaps, listen up, if you don't do what I say you'll go to this place called Hell! What's that I hear you say, well let me explain...."

The assumption that such things were invented to control people assumes an all powerful dishonest actor deliberately lying to achieve personal gain. This relies on 2 incorrect assumptions a) that such ideas were the product of a single individual (or perhaps a cabal) b) people in antiquity though about religion through the cynical mindset of irreligious people in modernity.

Of course many people have taken advantage of the concept to serve their own interests, but that is very different form it being 'invented' to perform exactly this role.

Well, regardless of how or who might have invented the concept, it still remains a central point in religion to this very day. There must be a reason for this.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Hell in my religion is disbelief in God and heaven to acknowledge Him. And satan represents the ego or insistent self.

So it’s people that confine themselves to the hell of disbelief not God as they choose to disbelieve. It’s just a description of the lowest spiritual state of a human being or community or world.
 

Erebus

Well-Known Member
I've often felt that people who view eternal punishment as in any way justified perhaps haven't considered the full magnitude of what eternity entails. A little snippet from Marlowe's Doctor Faustus:

O God,
If thou wilt not have mercy on my soul,
Yet for Christ's sake, whose blood hath ransom'd me,
Impose some end to my incessant pain;
Let Faustus live in hell a thousand years,
A hundred thousand, and at last be sav'd!
O, no end is limited to damned souls!

A hundred thousand years of agony is inconceivable. In the face of eternity, that span of time is essentially meaningless.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Not so.
As a matter of fact, it was during this measurement that the quantum realm was actually seen and described by the researchers as like viewing the ocean from a long distance. On the surface viewed as very smooth, but just underneath very tumultuous.
This is just as described by today's debating Philosophers......."a sea of broiling energy."

So. Sorry about that, Chief. Here's your shoe-phone back.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
I believe, atheist communist countries.

STOP. STOP RIGHT THERE. There are COMMUNIST countries, true.

There are no "atheist" countries-- i.e. they do what they do because of NOT believing in Magic Sky Fairies. They do what they do, because of Ideology. Ideology is not atheist.

You can't have a "something" by using a "not-something".

It's like trying to build something with the contents of a HOLE.

So the rest of your not-arguments? Automatically rejected, because of your first false statement, above.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
STOP. STOP RIGHT THERE. There are COMMUNIST countries, true.

There are no "atheist" countries-- i.e. they do what they do because of NOT believing in Magic Sky Fairies. They do what they do, because of Ideology. Ideology is not atheist.

You can't have a "something" by using a "not-something".

It's like trying to build something with the contents of a HOLE.

So the rest of your not-arguments? Automatically rejected, because of your first false statement, above.

Ok. Then we go with fact checking.
Maybe I am wrong with this.

List of countries by irreligion - Wikipedia

Top 20 Ranked Countries With Highest Atheist / Agnostic Population

On both references, China came out as the numero uno atheist/irreligious country


The number of executions has dropped significantly since the Supreme People's Court regained the power to review all death sentences in 2007; for instance, the Dui Hua Foundation estimates that China executed 12,000 people in 2002, 6,500 people in 2007, and roughly 2,400 in 2013 and 2014.

But it still remains the number one country applying the death penalty.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Since everyone in biblical hell is ' delivered up ' ( resurrected out of hell ) according to Revelation 20:12-14,
....

The word is actually Hades in that, not hell.

…and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works; and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire--this is the second death;
Rev. 20:13-14
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Don't see a thing implying the destruction of the soul and body, but rather eternal punishment, which would require either the soul or the body, or both.
.

Hmmm… Bible says “…to destroy both soul and body in hell...” Matt. 10:28, and you don’t see the word destroy in that?

But eternal punishment means that it is final solution, there is no coming back, and the punishment/judgment doesn’t change.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Hmmm… Bible says “…to destroy both soul and body in hell...” Matt. 10:28, and you don’t see the word destroy in that?

But eternal punishment means that it is final solution, there is no coming back, and the punishment/judgment doesn’t change.
But being able is not the same as actually doing.

". . . but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

But as usual, the Bible gives you a choice as what to believe.

Matthew 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

OR

Matthew 25:45-46
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

.
 
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Skwim

Veteran Member
The word is actually Hades in that, not hell.

…and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works; and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire--this is the second death;
Rev. 20:13-14
Actually, there are quite a few different renderings of Rev. 20:13

KJ21
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them; and they were judged every man according to their works.

TLB
The oceans surrendered the bodies buried in them; and the earth and the underworld gave up the dead in them. Each was judged according to his deeds.

RSV
And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done.

TLV
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Sheol gave up the dead in them. Then they were each judged, each one of them, according to their deeds.

WE
The dead people in the sea came out. People came out of death and the world of the dead. One by one, each one was judged by the things he had done.

NLT
The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds.

CEV
The sea gave up the dead people who were in it, and death and its kingdom also gave up their dead. Then everyone was judged by what they had done.


So, ya gots yer choice. ;) Which is the nice thing about the bible: Don't like what a verse says in a particular translation, you can always go elsewhere to find a translation that better fits your theology.

.

.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
Most everybody nowadays know Hell was just a made-up place used as a fear mongering tactic by the Church in order to receive indulgences.

 

InChrist

Free4ever
.

It's said that hell was originally created as a place for Satan and his angels.


Matthew 25:41
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


And from what a lot of Christians say, evidently Satan hasn't found his way there yet, as he's still leading us good humans astray.


1 Corinthians 7:5
5 Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

Fine, but then god decided to use hell as a final resting place for those of us who fail to toe his line.


Mark 9:43
43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

So what's the deal here? Was hell going to waste with no Satan to burn? Or does god simply get a kick out of making people suffer?


Just what is accomplished by putting people in hell?

.
An alternative destination is accomplished. Humans were created to live forever with God and enjoy His love, but love is a choice. Some prefer to reject the love and blessings God has for those who want to live in His eternal presence, as satan has. So hell is the alternative option.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
So all atheists are in hell. How unifying!

According to Baha’u’llah ....

They say: “Where is Paradise, and where is Hell?” Say: “The one is reunion with Me; the other thine own self, ( Book of Certitude)

So my understanding is it more refers to hell as being the ego dominating our lives and that can apply to anyone religious or not.
 
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