Nigerian Christian children before a Boko Haram firing squad

ChristineM said:

I actually think the world could be better off without religion. One would have to resort to humanity and human morality rather than a mythical god in an old book telling what is right and wrong. And of course getting rid of all those warts cant be bad.

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You may well be correct, but I take a dissenting view and I did so even when my bent was more as an agnostic.

In anthropology, we refer to religion as being one of the "five basic institutions" that all societies have and have had (the other four are family, economic, education, and political), and we often refer to religion as supply much of the "glue" that helps to bind people together with common morals and values. Without that "glue", what don't know what may replace it or if anything would replace it. Attempts at atheism for society as a whole have a terrible track record, such as with Marxism and with the NAZI's attempt to eradicate religion from its midst.

My wife and I have long agreed that, even if we knew that there are no deities, that bringing children up with the morals and values that religion teaches is a good thing, and that as parents and grandparents in our case we needed all the help that we could get.

metis said:

You may well be correct, but I take a dissenting view and I did so even when my bent was more as an agnostic.

In anthropology, we refer to religion as being one of the "five basic institutions" that all societies have and have had (the other four are family, economic, education, and political), and we often refer to religion as supply much of the "glue" that helps to bind people together with common morals and values. Without that "glue", what don't know what may replace it or if anything would replace it. Attempts at atheism for society as a whole have a terrible track record, such as with Marxism and with the NAZI's attempt to eradicate religion from its midst.

My wife and I have long agreed that, even if we knew that there are no deities, that bringing children up with the morals and values that religion teaches is a good thing, and that as parents and grandparents in our case we needed all the help that we could get.

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Morality is a human concept, which allowed civilization to develop thus allow religion to take hold. Without that human morality religion could not exist. And religion took morality, bastardised it to exclude anyone not of their faith and used it as a weapon against those not in their club.

You are making the same mistake as many religious in trying to belittle atheism and totally getting it wrong. Nazism was christian in its ideals, it persecuted atheists and put them to death. Nazi troops were always blessed by a priest before battle. Their motto was "Gott mit uns" meaning god with us.

We bring our children up to respect human morality. Its far less selective than religious morality in that it does not differentiate which club you are in.

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My apologies, but I have become too busy to respond to my own post. (bad form) So my only comment for now is this. >> The reality of the Christian God does not rise or fall on this particular Nigerian account . It can be argued there have been hundreds of signs and wonders and prophecies in Judeo-Christian history of great significance, witnessed to, and known to most of the world. No other religion or mystical belief in history can compare in the least. That fact alone (the sheer volume and magnitude of so many claims) adds to the credence for Christ.

Of course that does not satisfy those who claim there is no solid proof for God at all. They deny all claims or evidence for supernatural manifestations. Not here to argue that now, but saying there is no proof does not reduce the risk one takes. All still remain very much accountable for the choices they make. I, myself, cannot understand how anyone can go through their entire life not knowing for certain the truth about God. I would never be at peace.

ChristineM said:

Morality is a human concept, which allowed civilization to develop thus allow religion to take hold. Without that human morality religion could not exist.

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It's a chicken and egg situation, namely did our genes lead to religion or did religious experiences lead to the formation of religion? There is simply no way of telling, and opinions are a dime a dozen.

My answer to the above question is I don't know. However, I had a set of experiences that lasted almost three years that pushed me away from agnosticism into a form of very liberal theism.

ChristineM said:

You are making the same mistake as many religious in trying to belittle atheism and totally getting it wrong. Nazism was christian in its ideals, it persecuted atheists and put them to death. Nazi troops were always blessed by a priest before battle. Their motto was "Gott mit uns" meaning god with us.

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No, I was not "getting it wrong".

I was sponsored on a study of the Holocaust in 1991 and spent three weeks in Poland and Israel. I had already been teaching a two-week unit on the Holocaust and other forms of genocide in my political science class, and then I expended it to three weeks afterward.

Hitler and the NAZI's pandered to Christians in order to gain the support they couldn't have gotten otherwise. Not only were Jews on their "hit list", so was the Catholic Church in general as time went on, with the NAZI's intent to eradicate the Church in Europe after the "Final Solution". This is a matter of record, not speculation.

There is simply nothing special about atheists that somehow makes them any more moral than theists. Matter of fact, studies done here in the States verify that those who regularly attend services are more apt to donate more to charity than those who don't.

Also, we well know what the Marxists did, who were atheists, and Stalin had more people killed than did Hitler. And then there's the actions of other atheistic Marxist regimes, such as what led to the "Killing Fields" in Cambodia.

Without an appeal to a higher power, what's left is just human opinions and their subsequent actions. Religion teaches morality-- atheism doesn't, thus leaving it all up to the individual-- much like a ship without a rudder. However, I don't see atheism as some sort of intrinsic threat to humanity as some theists do.

They made it up to rake in donations.

Father Heathen said:

They made it up to rake in donations.

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Evidence?

metis said:

It's a chicken and egg situation, namely did our genes lead to religion or did religious experiences lead to the formation of religion? There is simply no way of telling, and opinions are a dime a dozen.

My answer to the above question is I don't know. However, I had a set of experiences that lasted almost three years that pushed me away from agnosticism into a form of very liberal theism.

No, I was not "getting it wrong".

I was sponsored on a study of the Holocaust in 1991 and spent three weeks in Poland and Israel. I had already been teaching a two-week unit on the Holocaust and other forms of genocide in my political science class, and then I expended it to three weeks afterward.

Hitler and the NAZI's pandered to Christians in order to gain the support they couldn't have gotten otherwise. Not only were Jews on their "hit list", so was the Catholic Church in general as time went on, with the NAZI's intent to eradicate the Church in Europe after the "Final Solution". This is a matter of record, not speculation.

There is simply nothing special about atheists that somehow makes them any more moral than theists. Matter of fact, studies done here in the States verify that those who regularly attend services are more apt to donate more to charity than those who don't.

Also, we well know what the Marxists did, who were atheists, and Stalin had more people killed than did Hitler. And then there's the actions of other atheistic Marxist regimes, such as what led to the "Killing Fields" in Cambodia.

Without an appeal to a higher power, what's left is just human opinions and their subsequent actions. Religion teaches morality-- atheism doesn't, thus leaving it all up to the individual-- much like a ship without a rudder. However, I don't see atheism as some sort of intrinsic threat to humanity as some theists do.

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Human history is quite sure. Religion is a late comer to humanity. Although there is no end of religious sites claiming differently.

No comment on your experiences, they are yours

Revisionist history does not tally with the facts that hitler was catholic with vatican backing, the majority of germans were protestant. Atheists were persecuted. The school curriculum included compulsory religious instruction. Then of course were the other bits that you maintain were just to gain support. The nazi party earned the support of the people by improving the economy following ww1 and thus creating jobs.

The Holocaust itself was in part driven by hitlers belief in the bible and the life of jesus.

In my view the thing that makes non believers more moral is they dont have a god sitting on their shoulder directing an individual's morality,

Studies like this?
Muslims and Christians less generous than atheists, study finds
And this
Are Religious People Really More Generous Than Atheists? A New Study Puts That Myth to Rest

Stallin was also christian, georgian orthodox. He however did consider nationalism above the corrupt russan church. Once he eradicated the abuses he set about rebuilding the church which has become, % of population wise, comparable to the strength of the church in america. I can give you much more on stalins religious views if you want.

Pol pol was a communist and, crucially a Theravada Buddhist. He studied both catholic and buddhist schools. It takes a lot of sustained abuse to turn a Buddhist into nationalist fanatic and mass murderer.

The only dictator who renounced his religion was mao zedong.

Religion teaches a bastardised version of morality that is limited to those of the particular religion. Atheism is simply a disbelief in gods and doesnt teach anything. However we are all human and morality is a human construct (shared by some animals)

ChristineM said:

Religion is a late comer to humanity.

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Not true as we even see ritual burials with objects buried with the body, such as weapons, food, flowers [both evidence by the pollen], with red ochre sprinkled on top with some of the European Neanderthals, which indicates a probably belief in the afterlife.

ChristineM said:

Revisionist history does not tally with the facts that hitler was catholic with vatican backing, the majority of germans were protestant.

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Hitler even was an alter-boy, but he left the Church in his late teens, by all indications, and he did not attend mass afterwards as far as historians can tell.

On top of that, one simply cannot blame religion for those who do not intend to follow its precepts, and Hitler definitely did not follow Catholic teachings.

ChristineM said:

The Holocaust itself was in part driven by hitlers belief in the bible and the life of jesus.

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Absolutely false, and I hate to say this but you simply are just making stuff up. Maybe read "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" as one source.

ChristineM said:

Stallin was also christian, georgian orthodox. He however did consider nationalism above the corrupt russan church.

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So, you'e saying that Orthodox Christianity basically teaches and/or allows for genocide?

ChristineM said:

Pol pol was a communist and, crucially a Theravada Buddhist.

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So, you're saying that Buddhism also teaches that genocide is acceptable? Could you please find that for us in the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path?

ChristineM said:

Religion teaches a bastardised version of morality that is limited to those of the particular religion

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Actually, most of the basic morals with at least the major religions are actually quite similar. What we often call "the Golden Rule" is pretty much basic to them, plus there are many other similarities as well.

The problem with your posts on this is that you are stating your opinions as if they were facts, and as long as one does this they have lost all and any objectivity on the subject. Therefore, there's imply no reason for me to continue on with this, so...

Take care.

metis said:

Evidence?

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None. It's simply the answer that seems the most logical and likely to me.

metis said:

Not true as we even see ritual burials with objects buried with the body, such as weapons, food, flowers [both evidence by the pollen], with red ochre sprinkled on top with some of the European Neanderthals, which indicates a probably belief in the afterlife.

Hitler even was an alter-boy, but he left the Church in his late teens, by all indications, and he did not attend mass afterwards as far as historians can tell.

On top of that, one simply cannot blame religion for those who do not intend to follow its precepts, and Hitler definitely did not follow Catholic teachings.

Absolutely false, and I hate to say this but you simply are just making stuff up. Maybe read "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" as one source.

So, you'e saying that Orthodox Christianity basically teaches and/or allows for genocide?

So, you're saying that Buddhism also teaches that genocide is acceptable? Could you please find that for us in the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path?

Actually, most of the basic morals with at least the major religions are actually quite similar. What we often call "the Golden Rule" is pretty much basic to them, plus there are many other similarities as well.

The problem with your posts on this is that you are stating your opinions as if they were facts, and as long as one does this they have lost all and any objectivity on the subject. Therefore, there's imply no reason for me to continue on with this, so...

Take care.

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Humanity was around a couple of hundred thousand years before Neanderthal, and strictly speaking Neanderthal were not human beings. Closest of that period were cro magnon who are classed as anatomically modern humans. I study cro magnon (one of the reasons we moved to france) as far as i am aware no cro magnon ritual burial site has been found.

Hitler leaving church

Hitler in church


Have you read the bible? I mean read it, not just the good, nice, fuzzy pink verses? Hitler assuredly followed bible teaching

Read Mein Kampf. Hitler talking about hitler, in his own words. I do not make stuff up, i simply have no time for revisionist history.

Please dont tell me what a say. I will not lower myself to even answer such stupid questions. But i suggest you re read my post.

As i said, bastardised human morality designed so the "golden rule" is selective.

The problem with your posts is that you are using revisionist history written by americans (often american christians) to mollify american sensibilities and stating it as though it was real. And if you have no wish to continue i am not really surprised

Some seem to forget, because I've mentioned it many times here at RF, that I was agnostic (a form of atheism) for almost half of my adult life. Because of this, I have no problems with the atheistic approach, nor do I attack atheists nor atheism nor insist that they reconsider and covert to some sort of religious faith.

Therefore, it really bothers me when someone misportrays where I'm coming from even after it's been repeatedly explained, thus it's at that point whereas I tend to just want to get out of that situation, thus stopping my participation.

If one wants to get a drift of where I am theologically, take religious thoughts from Spinoza, Einstein, and Gandhi, put them in a blender, and viola!-- that's me-- about as loosey-goosey as one can be.