Was Revelation Written About The Distant Future?

sooda said:

Zecharia is talking about Cyrus of Persia who defeated the Babylonians and returned the Jews to Jerusalem. He was considered an anointed king and the messiah by the Jews,

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PruePhillip said:

Some secular "interpretations" feel quite desperate.
Such theories as this are employed to EXPLAIN AWAY embarrassing things.

The Jews are adept at this when it comes to Jesus - they have no choice.

Zech 12 The Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who
forms the human spirit within a person, declares: “I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends
all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. On that day, when
all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all
the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. On that day I will strike every horse with panic
and its rider with madness,” declares the Lord. “I will keep a watchful eye over Judah, but I will blind all
the horses of the nations. Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘The people of Jerusalem
are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God.’
“On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves.
They will consume all the surrounding peoples right and left, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.
“The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem’s
inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. On that day the Lord will shield those who live in
Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like
the angel of the Lord going before them. On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack
Jerusalem.
“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication.
They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child,
and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as
great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo...

This isn't Cyrus.
"THEY WILL LOOK ON ME, THE ONE THEY HAVE PIERCED"
This is the same one whom came to the Jews originally as the lowly man who rode upon the colt.

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sooda said:

Both popular and academic readings of Revelation still suffer from a need to find some future supposed reference to various features of the text. This is despite considerable evidence that the text would have made good sense to its first-century readers, and that many would have been able to understand it as a depiction of their own world, albeit in a highly symbolic form.

The development of this ‘futurist’ reading strategy arose from ignorance of the meaning of the text quite quickly into the second century. So (for example) we find Irenaeus (130–202) speculating about the meaning of 666 (Against Heresies 5), discussing textual variants that include 616, but knowing the correct reading from people he knows who knew John’s teaching. And yet he cannot decipher the reference, and speculates it might be ‘Teitan’ or ‘Lateinus.’

With the rise of an interest in the classical world in the late 18th and 19th centuries came the explosion of interest in archaeology and papyrology, which meant that we now know much more about the ancient world than previous generations did, even ones that were quite close in time.

This went hand in hand with the growth of historical critical ways of reading the New Testament, and with it the conviction that our interpretation of the NT must start and be shaped by the historical meaning of the texts, that is, what the text meant to the writer and first readers. For most texts, this has led to the displacement of allegorical or speculative readings—seen as just that: speculative—with its historical meaning.

But the one text where this has not happened is the Book of Revelation. Even though futurist readings came about to fill the vacuum left by the absence of historical understanding, Western commentators often simply add back the historical meaning, but retain the futurist reading, so the text now means or refers to two different sets of things. Robert Mounce (who wrote the Eerdmans NIC commentary) explains it like this:

The predictions of John, while expressed in terms reflecting his own culture, will find their final and complete fulfillment in the last days of history. Although John saw the Roman Empire as the great beast that threatened the extinction of the church, there will be in the last days an eschatological beast who will sustain the same relationship with the church of the great tribulation. It is this eschatological beast, portrayed in type by Rome, that the Apocalypse describes…

It seems quite acceptable to believe in the dual fulfilment of biblical prophecy whilst accepting that the Old Testament prophets did not necessarily have the second (main) fulfilment in mind, even though they may have been “trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing.” However the New Testament writers, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, recognised the second fulfilment.

The same thing applies to New Testament prophecies. The writers made predictions which sometimes referred to 1st century events and did not necessarily have a second major fulfilment in mind. Similarly Jesus made predictions which his hearers may have applied only to 1st century events. But it is clear that some of these predictions do have a second major fulfilment which is still future. We have to be careful, though, in seeking a correct understanding of these predictions.

There is a fascinating move going on here. Because the OT prophetic texts have a ‘second fulfilment’ in the person of Jesus, then NT ‘prophetic’ texts will also have a ‘second fulfilment’ in the timetable of ‘last days’ events. Note that Mounce is not here talking of the kind of partially-realised eschatology we find in Paul, for example in Romans 8, where what we have now is the ‘first fruits’ of what we will experience when Jesus returns. He is talking about historical events referred to (such as the fall of the temple in Jerusalem in AD 70) having corresponding historical events in a ‘last days’ calendar.

He does not appear to notice that is actually the opposite of what is happening in relation to the OT. The fact that there is a ‘second fulfilment’ in Jesus is because Jesus is the ultimate expression of God and his purposes, and all his promises find their ‘yes’ in him. To say that there is a further series of events that are needed to fulfil the NT is to say that not all God’s promises find their ‘yes’ in Jesus. Futurist eschatological schemes actually undermine the centrality of Jesus in the NT, because they focus the fulfilment of God’s promises in a scheme, rather than in his person.

But more significantly (in relation to Revelation) there is no indication whatever in the text itself that the symbolic action has this kind of ‘double reference.’ There is repeated emphasis on the fact that this is all to happen ‘soon’. The primary genre of the book is of a letter; John is addressing people he knows who live in a particular historical and cultural context, and since the work of Ramsay and Hemer on the seven ‘messages’ in chapters two and three, we have appreciated that Revelation is firmly embedded in its historical and cultural context. And the function of the messages themselves is to root the action in the world of first-century Asia; the visions that follow are not detached from the world they live in, but describe and speak to their world very directly.

At the end of the book, there is a key phrase which reinforces all this:

Then he [the angel] told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near.” (Rev 22.10)

What does this verse mean? It cannot be read in isolation from the parallel verse in Daniel 12.4 and 9–10:

But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge….Go your way, Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end. Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.

(We can see the allusion to Daniel 12 in Rev 22 by the echo in 22.11 of the phrase from Daniel ‘the wicked will continue to be wicked.’)

continued

Was Revelation written about the distant future?​

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sooda said:

ALL Jews road donkeys.
They didn't have horses because they didn't have enough water and pastures for horses.

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sooda said:

Queen Berneice, the granddaughter of Herod, was the lover of Titus.. Its hinted at in Revelation .. sort of a double entendre about the Whore of Babylon.

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PruePhillip said:

Is that true? Romans saw horses as military objects and forbade them. Might have
been true for the Greeks? Don't know - the Jews were forbidden from creating images
so we don't see pictures of horses, or donkeys...

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PruePhillip said:

Revelations was not interested in temporal political affairs. Some try to shoehorn some of its verses
into something secular - and if the verse couldn't be explained away it's simply ignored.
The fall of the Christian churches is a case to point - and its happening in our own generation, right
now. To people of that time, with the huge growth of Christianity, that would have seemed strange.
And what is this about candles, altars and bridegrooms? Christianity repudiated those things in
church service.

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loverofhumanity said:

I believe Revelation to be like a mine full of gems if hidden meanings. And that when some of the meanings become known then it is clear the Book is from God.

I see Isla, it’s duration and which sect is the true one mentioned symbolically as well as a lot that’s already happened.

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sooda said:

Both popular and academic readings of Revelation still suffer from a need to find some future supposed reference to various features of the text. This is despite considerable evidence that the text would have made good sense to its first-century readers, and that many would have been able to understand it as a depiction of their own world, albeit in a highly symbolic form.

The development of this ‘futurist’ reading strategy arose from ignorance of the meaning of the text quite quickly into the second century. So (for example) we find Irenaeus (130–202) speculating about the meaning of 666 (Against Heresies 5), discussing textual variants that include 616, but knowing the correct reading from people he knows who knew John’s teaching. And yet he cannot decipher the reference, and speculates it might be ‘Teitan’ or ‘Lateinus.’

With the rise of an interest in the classical world in the late 18th and 19th centuries came the explosion of interest in archaeology and papyrology, which meant that we now know much more about the ancient world than previous generations did, even ones that were quite close in time.

This went hand in hand with the growth of historical critical ways of reading the New Testament, and with it the conviction that our interpretation of the NT must start and be shaped by the historical meaning of the texts, that is, what the text meant to the writer and first readers. For most texts, this has led to the displacement of allegorical or speculative readings—seen as just that: speculative—with its historical meaning.

But the one text where this has not happened is the Book of Revelation. Even though futurist readings came about to fill the vacuum left by the absence of historical understanding, Western commentators often simply add back the historical meaning, but retain the futurist reading, so the text now means or refers to two different sets of things. Robert Mounce (who wrote the Eerdmans NIC commentary) explains it like this:

The predictions of John, while expressed in terms reflecting his own culture, will find their final and complete fulfillment in the last days of history. Although John saw the Roman Empire as the great beast that threatened the extinction of the church, there will be in the last days an eschatological beast who will sustain the same relationship with the church of the great tribulation. It is this eschatological beast, portrayed in type by Rome, that the Apocalypse describes…

It seems quite acceptable to believe in the dual fulfilment of biblical prophecy whilst accepting that the Old Testament prophets did not necessarily have the second (main) fulfilment in mind, even though they may have been “trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing.” However the New Testament writers, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, recognised the second fulfilment.

The same thing applies to New Testament prophecies. The writers made predictions which sometimes referred to 1st century events and did not necessarily have a second major fulfilment in mind. Similarly Jesus made predictions which his hearers may have applied only to 1st century events. But it is clear that some of these predictions do have a second major fulfilment which is still future. We have to be careful, though, in seeking a correct understanding of these predictions.

There is a fascinating move going on here. Because the OT prophetic texts have a ‘second fulfilment’ in the person of Jesus, then NT ‘prophetic’ texts will also have a ‘second fulfilment’ in the timetable of ‘last days’ events. Note that Mounce is not here talking of the kind of partially-realised eschatology we find in Paul, for example in Romans 8, where what we have now is the ‘first fruits’ of what we will experience when Jesus returns. He is talking about historical events referred to (such as the fall of the temple in Jerusalem in AD 70) having corresponding historical events in a ‘last days’ calendar.

He does not appear to notice that is actually the opposite of what is happening in relation to the OT. The fact that there is a ‘second fulfilment’ in Jesus is because Jesus is the ultimate expression of God and his purposes, and all his promises find their ‘yes’ in him. To say that there is a further series of events that are needed to fulfil the NT is to say that not all God’s promises find their ‘yes’ in Jesus. Futurist eschatological schemes actually undermine the centrality of Jesus in the NT, because they focus the fulfilment of God’s promises in a scheme, rather than in his person.

But more significantly (in relation to Revelation) there is no indication whatever in the text itself that the symbolic action has this kind of ‘double reference.’ There is repeated emphasis on the fact that this is all to happen ‘soon’. The primary genre of the book is of a letter; John is addressing people he knows who live in a particular historical and cultural context, and since the work of Ramsay and Hemer on the seven ‘messages’ in chapters two and three, we have appreciated that Revelation is firmly embedded in its historical and cultural context. And the function of the messages themselves is to root the action in the world of first-century Asia; the visions that follow are not detached from the world they live in, but describe and speak to their world very directly.

At the end of the book, there is a key phrase which reinforces all this:

Then he [the angel] told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near.” (Rev 22.10)

What does this verse mean? It cannot be read in isolation from the parallel verse in Daniel 12.4 and 9–10:

But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge….Go your way, Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end. Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.

(We can see the allusion to Daniel 12 in Rev 22 by the echo in 22.11 of the phrase from Daniel ‘the wicked will continue to be wicked.’)

continued

Was Revelation written about the distant future?​

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whirlingmerc said:

The book of Revelation (no s please)
One of the themes of the book is perseverance and so in that light
it has a great deal of bearing on the present
I don't think people reading it would know if it was close future or future future
but it would bring comfort in their afflictions'

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URAVIP2ME said:

Yes, it is one Revelation, with 16 vivid visions.
Yes, Revelation is set for bearing on the present ( Revelation 1:10 ) our time frame.
Thus, the fulfillment of Revelation 22:2 is at hand because we are nearing the soon coming ' time of separating ' to take place on Earth as mentioned at Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.
This is going to happen soon because we are at the ' final phase ' of Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8 in declaring about the international good news of God's kingdom of Daniel 2:44 on such a vast global scale.

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mistoftime said:

The book of Revelation was nearly left out of the Bible when it was compiled, it is a great pity it was ever included. People have come up with the craziest of interpretations.

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loverofhumanity said:

And you are the Lion of the tribe of Judah? Unless you are you don’t know the meanings and can’t claim to as only One can unseal the meanings and that excludes every Christian on earth according to rev 5:5
Rev 5:3-5
And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book

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sooda said:

Archaeology finds the name of Agrippa and Bernice
www.biblehistory.net/newsletter/bernice_agrippa.htm
Artifact mentioning Queen Bernice, King Agrippa II and King Herod. The Biblical story of Bernice and Agrippa is found in Acts 25-26: Now when Festus had come to the province, after three days he went up from Caesarea to Jerusalem. Then the high priest and the …



At the outbreak of the war Agrippa, a former king of large parts of Israel, allied himself with the Romans and accompanied Titus during the siege of Jerusalem.The Histories 5.1." data-hasqtip="10">11 Interestingly, rumor had it that Agrippa II also had an adulterous affair with Queen Berenice, the embodiment of the whore of Babylon, prior to the start of the revolt against Rome in literal fulfillment of v. 9: “When the kings of the earth who committed adultery with her and shared her luxury see the smoke of her burning, they will weep and mourn over her [emphasis mine].” Queen Berenice also accompanied the Roman army during this siege.

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URAVIP2ME said:

As you posted, and it is Jesus who is the Lion of the tribe of Judah.... thus Jesus opened the book for us.
This is why we can be 'happy' to read starting with Revelation 1:1 to its glorious climax at Revelation 22:2.
When mankind on Earth will see the return of the Genesis ' tree of life ' for the ' healing ' of earth's nations.
Jesus, as the Root of 'king' David, will not only usher in global Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill, but like David was, Jesus is King. Jesus is King of God's Kingdom of Daniel 2:44.
As King, Jesus will take the action recorded at Revelation 19:14-16; Isaiah 11:3-4.

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PruePhillip said:

The kings (plural) who committed adultery with the church is a fairly easy one to identify.
Until about the 1800's the Pope crowned Europe's kings and queens. A few centuries
before the Pope actually had the power to determine who would sit on thrones. This is
an astonishing turn of affairs - and wouldn't have been recognized by the Apostolic
Church as even being possible.

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sooda said:

What are Daniel and Isaiah talking about?

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PruePhillip said:

Is that true? Romans saw horses as military objects and forbade them. Might have
been true for the Greeks? Don't know - the Jews were forbidden from creating images
so we don't see pictures of horses, or donkeys...

Click to expand...