Can Islamic and Christian Theological Concepts of God be reconciled?

iam1me said:

And, of course, your position blatantly disregards the scriptural testimony that the Second Coming will be like a Thief in the Night: No one knowing the time of his coming.

Click to expand...

Your own words have proved that has been fulfilled, one has to awake and search the house bedore they know the thief has been.

Theŕe were many around the world with great expectation in the mid 1800's that Christ was to return, even then they saw the required signs had been fulfilled.

Meanwhile a small band of men were actually out searching, they knew that Christ was again walking the earth and on one night May 23rd 1844, 2 hrs after sunset, the Bab made the declaration to the One person that was searching in most earnest, the promise now fulfilled, Christ had returned. Over a short while another 18 also by individaul search acheived their hearts desire. A Faith born and the great and dreadful day of the Lord commenced.

They all did not know the time, the time came on that night when the earnest search produced the greatest fruit. God chooses that time not us, but what excuse do we have, before it happened, in a far off land called America, God also gifted inspiration to a seeking soul, gave guidance and as a result we even knew the year. The day and hour was still not known.

If all this Prophecy is not clear to Christains, then does that not explain very clearly why the Christains were not able to show how Jesus was clearly foretold in the Jewish scriptures? Is this not the warning to all Christains that the last will be first and the first last. By holding to the outward appearance of the Words of God, the inward spiritual message is clouded, it is these clouds that Christ returns upon.

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Your own words have proved that has been fulfilled, one has to awake and search the house bedore they know the thief has been.

Theŕe were many around the world with great expectation in the mid 1800's that Christ was to return, even then they saw the required signs had been fulfilled.

Meanwhile a small band of men were actually out searching, they knew that Christ was again walking the earth and on one night May 23rd 1844, 2 hrs after sunset, the Bab made the declaration to the One person that was searching in most earnest, the promise now fulfilled, Christ had returned. Over a short while another 18 also by individaul search acheived their hearts desire. A Faith born and the great and dreadful day of the Lord commenced.

They all did not know the time, the time came on that night when the earnest search produced the greatest fruit. God chooses that time not us, but what excuse do we have, before it happened, in a far off land called America, God also gifted inspiration to a seeking soul, gave guidance and as a result we even knew the year. The day and hour was still not known.

If all this Prophecy is not clear to Christains, then does that not explain very clearly why the Christains were not able to show how Jesus was clearly foretold in the Jewish scriptures? Is this not the warning to all Christains that the last will be first and the first last. By holding to the outward appearance of the Words of God, the inward spiritual message is clouded, it is these clouds that Christ returns upon.

Regards Tony

Click to expand...

You are relying upon a prediction that contradicts it source at every step as your guide. The scriptures are blatantly clear both that no one knows when it will be - and also when it does happen all will witness it. No one needs to go looking for it - they won't find it. It will appear when God wills it, and no one will not see it.

You have chosen to blind yourself to the obvious truths laid out by scripture on this matter in an attempt to cling to an obviously false doctrine. Well yours isn't the first sect to put forth a false messiah and it won't be the last.

Matthew 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

iam1me said:

. For the prophecy is that all eyes will see. Thus, short of everyone switching over to the Bahai Faith, you can't claim this faith fulfilled that aspect of prophecy (not to mention all the other aspects of the end days like the heavens disappearing, the elements being destroyed with fire, the war, the 1000 years of peace, the judgement, etc etc).

Click to expand...

I do not see it says every eye that sees will beleive, or that it is an immediate change.

The result of a new Messaage from God brings a New Heaven and a New Earth. This Metaphor can have many meanings and in one way we could see the new heaven as the Word of God and all the good it brings and a new earth as the opposition that always accompanies that message.

Thus it is much like daybreak. Before the Sun rises there is a dawn when a few early people arise and get to see the first light of the coming day. Eventually everyone gets up and greets the new day, some even after lunch time. There are some that always live for the night and sleep the day away.

Thus every eye can see the result of that message, the dawn of the new day, it does not say they were to, or have to, acknowledge the source.

An example is that of the Telegraph. The dawn of all our modern communication that aids us in the realization of how small this planet really is and how we can all be connected. The first Telegraph message sent was in America and the Message was 'What has God Wrought', taken from the Book of Numbers, from the Bible. Most astonishing was that it was sent the day after the Declaration of the Bab. Another sign seen by many, but who put that down to the cause being God's promise fulfilled?

Regards Tony

iam1me said:

Matthew 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

Click to expand...

Now look up all the advice for a 'True Prophet'.

It is that advice we must use to find the Truth. With your quote we would never look.

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

I do not see it says every eye that sees will beleive, or that it is an immediate change.

Click to expand...

You are missing the point. It is an event that all will see - end of story. If you want to try to argue that they witness it with "spiritual eyes" - fine. Then everyone needs to spiritually see the truth. If it is a matter of the physical eye seeing, then all will witness it that way. In either case - this prophecy clearly hasn't been fulfilled.

The result of a new Messaage from God brings a New Heaven and a New Earth. This Metaphor can have many meanings and in one way we could see the new heaven as the Word of God and all the good it brings and a new earth as the opposition that always accompanies that message.

Thus it is much like daybreak. Before the Sun rises there is a dawn when a few early people arise and get to see the first light of the coming day. Eventually everyone gets up and greets the new day, some even after lunch time. There are some that always live for the night and sleep the day away.

Thus every eye can see the result of that message, the dawn if the new day, it does not say they were to or have to acknowledge the source.

Click to expand...

The scriptures don't treat the new heaven and earth as a metaphor, but as a future event. Also, the spiritual transformations spoken of at the end days will occur instantly, all at once:

1 Cor 15:51-52 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised r]">[r]imperishable, and we will be changed.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Now look up all the advice for a 'True Prophet'.

It is that advice we must use to find the Truth. With your quote we would never look.

Regards Tony

Click to expand...

There is no need to seek out Christ's Second Coming. It will be made manifest to all when it happens.

Matthew 24:23-25 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the l]">[l]Christ,’ or ‘m]">[m]There He is,’ do not believe him. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will n]">[n]show great o]">[o]signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the p]">[p]elect. 25 Behold, I have told you in advance. 26 So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. 27 For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

iam1me said:

There is no need to seek out Christ's Second Coming. It will be made manifest to all when it happens.

Matthew 24:23-25 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the l]">[l]Christ,’ or ‘m]">[m]There He is,’ do not believe him. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will n]">[n]show great o]">[o]signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the p]">[p]elect. 25 Behold, I have told you in advance. 26 So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. 27 For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Click to expand...

Then wait it is.

Baha'u'llah has said to those that wait, those that quote traditional requirements;

"..Great God! Notwithstanding their acceptance of the truth of this tradition, these divines who are still doubtful of, and dispute about, the theological obscurities of their faith, yet claim to be the exponents of the subtleties of the law of God, and the expounders of the essential mysteries of His holy Word. They confidently assert that such traditions as indicate the advent of the expected Qá’im have not yet been fulfilled, whilst they themselves have failed to inhale the fragrance of the meaning of these traditions, and are still oblivious of the fact that all the signs foretold have come to pass, that the way of God’s holy Cause hath been revealed, and the concourse of the faithful, swift as lightning, are, even now, passing upon that way, whilst these foolish divines wait expecting to witness the signs foretold. Say, O ye foolish ones! Wait ye even as those before you are waiting!"

Regards Tony

iam1me said:

There is no need to seek out Christ's Second Coming. It will be made manifest to all when it happens.

Click to expand...

Therin lays the demise of Christianity

Matthew 24:42-43"Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. "But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into.."

Revelation 3:3 'So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you."

Revelation 3:20 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Now look up all the advice for a 'True Prophet'.

It is that advice we must use to find the Truth. With your quote we would never look.

Regards Tony

Click to expand...

By what most Christians believe, Islam and the Baha'i Faith are teaching things that go against most of those Christian beliefs. So, for those Christians, Muhammad and Baha'u'llah are false prophets, because they teach a "different" gospel. After Jesus was killed, that gospel included that he rose again, that it is he, and only he, that can take away the sins of the world and save people from going to hell.

So for a Christian, Baha'u'llah is not a "True" prophet. And besides, Baha'u'llah came and went with very few people noticing. So not only did he come in secret, like a thief, but after he came, he left with very little notice. Baha'is themselves talk about The Faith still waiting to come out of obscurity. What prophecy does that fulfill?

But to tie this back in to the OP... What do you see as the main theological concepts of Islam and Christianity, as they believe them to be? Then, what do Baha'is say were, "originally", the true concepts of those religions? Which, I'm sure, do agree and are complimentary and show how those religions were both part of the progression leading to The Baha'i Faith?

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

I do not see it says every eye that sees will beleive, or that it is an immediate change.

The result of a new Messaage from God brings a New Heaven and a New Earth. This Metaphor can have many meanings and in one way we could see the new heaven as the Word of God and all the good it brings and a new earth as the opposition that always accompanies that message.

Thus it is much like daybreak. Before the Sun rises there is a dawn when a few early people arise and get to see the first light of the coming day. Eventually everyone gets up and greets the new day, some even after lunch time. There are some that always live for the night and sleep the day away.

Thus every eye can see the result of that message, the dawn of the new day, it does not say they were to, or have to, acknowledge the source.

An example is that of the Telegraph. The dawn of all our modern communication that aids us in the realization of how small this planet really is and how we can all be connected. The first Telegraph message sent was in America and the Message was 'What has God Wrought', taken from the Book of Numbers, from the Bible. Most astonishing was that it was sent the day after the Declaration of the Bab. Another sign seen by many, but who put that down to the cause being God's promise fulfilled?

Regards Tony

Click to expand...

One thing I've never heard a Baha'i answer for is this 1000 year reign of Christ. Since all other prophecies with years in them, Baha'is change into days then back to years. But, that's a lot of years. So what do you do with this prophecy?

Sure Baha'is have their go to verses that show how the Baha'i Faith is the fulfillment of Bible prophecy. I read an article about the 1000 year reign of Christ and in it, I found these prophesies from Isaiah...

In the first one, Baha'is have to change it from "Zion" and "Jerusalem" to Mt. Carmel and Haifa. In the second one, peace has not happened and isn't close to happening. So Baha'is cannot say that all the prophecies have been fulfilled. And, if this peace was to happen as soon as Christ returned, then it's even worse for Baha'is, because, then... Baha'u'llah has already failed to do what the "Christ" was supposed to do. But then, do Baha'is claim that once the world recognizes Baha'u'llah and his teachings that there will never, ever be another war?

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Then wait it is.

Baha'u'llah has said to those that wait, those that quote traditional requirements;

"..Great God! Notwithstanding their acceptance of the truth of this tradition, these divines who are still doubtful of, and dispute about, the theological obscurities of their faith, yet claim to be the exponents of the subtleties of the law of God, and the expounders of the essential mysteries of His holy Word. They confidently assert that such traditions as indicate the advent of the expected Qá’im have not yet been fulfilled, whilst they themselves have failed to inhale the fragrance of the meaning of these traditions, and are still oblivious of the fact that all the signs foretold have come to pass, that the way of God’s holy Cause hath been revealed, and the concourse of the faithful, swift as lightning, are, even now, passing upon that way, whilst these foolish divines wait expecting to witness the signs foretold. Say, O ye foolish ones! Wait ye even as those before you are waiting!"

Regards Tony

Click to expand...

I've asked this many times. Should all the Jews have become Christians? What would they have gained? The Jewish Christians were put down for making new Christians follow the Laws of Moses. So what's left of being Jewish? Baha'is might say "fine". It's time to follow the new teachings. But, those in control of Christianity made all kinds of new laws and traditions. Traditions that Baha'is say are false... like Jesus being God. So what did those Jewish converts end up with? A religion with false teaching versus a religion with old teachings?

That's why we wait. Let's see if the Baha'is are for real or just another religion with some good ideas, but... that can't really bring the world together in peace and harmony. We are still waiting for that "lessor" peace that Baha'is say will happen. When will that be? Or, no man knows the time? It will come as a thief?

CG Didymus said:

By what most Christians believe, Islam and the Baha'i Faith are teaching things that go against most of those Christian beliefs. So, for those Christians, Muhammad and Baha'u'llah are false prophets, because they teach a "different" gospel.

Click to expand...

It is not popular doctrine that Christ talks about. It is Prophecy and Fruits of the Spirit we are told to look at.

In some above quotes it suggests we need to be spiritually prepared and awake, open to fruits of the spirit, not placing clouds of doctrine in the way. The owner of the House (Christianity) was caught out in the darkness of the night. We have talked about Christianity being in a long dark winter prior to Christs return.

Only fruits of the spirit can light the way. I admire those people, pure in heart that could believe in an instant, or by a dream or by just acceptance of what they read. Many have already suffered a lot in life that are gifted do this.

My wife was one of those. Read one prayer and was connected.

Regards Tony

CG Didymus said:

I've asked this many times. Should all the Jews have become Christians? What would they have gained?

Click to expand...

It is not about what we can gain.

The question to ask is what would have humanity profited by from that action?

Yes they should have accepted, also for Muhammad.

Regards Tony

CG Didymus said:

We are still waiting for that "lessor" peace that Baha'is say will happen.

Click to expand...

Therin lays the issue.

I invite you to Normanton, lots to do.

Regards, Tony

CG Didymus said:

One thing I've never heard a Baha'i answer for is this 1000 year reign of Christ. Since all other prophecies with years in them, Baha'is change into days then back to years. But, that's a lot of years. So what do you do with this prophecy?

Sure Baha'is have their go to verses that show how the Baha'i Faith is the fulfillment of Bible prophecy. I read an article about the 1000 year reign of Christ and in it, I found these prophesies from Isaiah...

Isaiah 2:2 It shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established as the highest of the mountains, and shall be lifted up above the hills; and all the nations shall flow to it, many peoples shall come, and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob, that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths.” For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

Isaiah 2:4 He shall judge between the nations, and shall decide disputes for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.
​

In the first one, Baha'is have to change it from "Zion" and "Jerusalem" to Mt. Carmel and Haifa. In the second one, peace has not happened and isn't close to happening. So Baha'is cannot say that all the prophecies have been fulfilled. And, if this peace was to happen as soon as Christ returned, then it's even worse for Baha'is, because, then... Baha'u'llah has already failed to do what the "Christ" was supposed to do. But then, do Baha'is claim that once the world recognizes Baha'u'llah and his teachings that there will never, ever be another war?

Click to expand...

This is explained in the Kitab-i-iqan.

The outward fulfillment of Prophecy does not always come to pass, a lot remains within the Spiritual Realm. Also again, I see prophecy as snipets in time tied together to give a metephor that we are then given to search with our heart to find the mystery within.

In the Kitab-i-iqan Baha'u'llah says;

"..were the signs of the Manifestation of God in every age to appear in the visible realm in accordance with the text of established traditions, none could possibly deny or turn away, nor would the blessed be distinguished from the miserable, and the transgressor from the God-fearing. Judge fairly: Were the prophecies recorded in the Gospel to be literally fulfilled; were Jesus, Son of Mary, accompanied by angels, to descend from the visible heaven upon the clouds; who would dare to disbelieve, who would dare to reject the truth, and wax disdainful? Nay, such consternation would immediately seize all the dwellers of the earth that no soul would feel able to utter a word, much less to reject or accept the truth."

Regards Tony

iam1me said:

The Baha'i faith has nothing to do with the fulfillment of those prophecies. If you want to say that the birth of this new faith fulfilled, in a spiritual sense, people seeing/hearing - it still fails. For the prophecy is that all eyes will see. Thus, short of everyone switching over to the Bahai Faith, you can't claim this faith fulfilled that aspect of prophecy (not to mention all the other aspects of the end days like the heavens disappearing, the elements being destroyed with fire, the war, the 1000 years of peace, the judgement, etc etc).

And, of course, your position blatantly disregards the scriptural testimony that the Second Coming will be like a Thief in the Night: No one knowing the time of his coming.

Click to expand...

For me what you have written is a great example of the type of rigid thinking most adherents of Judaism took leading them to reject Jesus as their Messiah.

I've already shown you that the phrase 'all eyes shall see Him' applied equally to Jesus as it does to his return. A similar phrase is used by the author the Gospel of Luke.

As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
Luke 3:4-6

So what does it mean that all flesh shall see the salvation of God? It can't possibly mean that everyone will believe in Him as two thousand years later that clearly hasn't happened. Nor can it mean that when Jesus began His ministry everyone on earth would see Him. It does not need to be accompanied by literal miraculous events like stars falling from heaven. Rather it means that in time, His cause would be recognised by all the inhabitants whether they believed in Him or not. Christianity spread quickly throughout the known world (like lightening from East to West). That led to the Roman Empire accepting it when the Emperor Constantine became a Christian. In this day the Gospel has been preached to all the nations, the nation of Israel have been re-established, and the heaven bodies (meaning the confdition of the religion of God) have been fundamentally altered.These are all signs alluded to in the Olivet discourse through Matthew 24 or Luke 21.

So the phrase all eyes shall see Him would be applicable to the cause of Muhammad too as well as the Baha'i Faith. Interestingly the Baha'i Faith has spread to practically every country and locality on earth and thus emerged from obscurity. All eyes can now see Baha'u'llah's Cause as they can see that of Muhammad and Christ.

In regards the prophecy concerning Christ coming like a thief in the night, when His Mission was born in Persia, most inhabitants of the earth were asleep (spiritually) and thus unaware.

Stars falling from heaven, the sun becoming dimmed and the moon no longer shedding its light are conditions affecting religion where the religion becomes corrupted and its Divine light is obscured. Instead of promoting love and unity as religion should, it promotes hatred and division. Religious leaders and its champions are like the stars who have fallen from heaven, bringing themselves into disrepute along with their religion.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Therin lays the issue.

I invite you to Normanton, lots to do.

Regards, Tony

Click to expand...

Lots to do in Normanton? Where isn't there lots to do? It's crazy what's happening in the U.S. And still, people are so desperate, they want to come here to seek asylum. But instead, they are treated like criminals and caged up.

CG Didymus said:

Lots to do in Normanton? Where isn't there lots to do? It's crazy what's happening in the U.S. And still, people are so desperate, they want to come here to seek asylum. But instead, they are treated like criminals and caged up.

Click to expand...

Reminds me of this quote.

"...What “oppression” is greater than that which hath been recounted? What “oppression” is more grievous than that a soul seeking the truth, and wishing to attain unto the knowledge of God, should know not where to go for it and from whom to seek it? For opinions have sorely differed, and the ways unto the attainment of God have multiplied. This “oppression” is the essential feature of every Revelation. Unless it cometh to pass, the Sun of Truth will not be made manifest. For the break of the morn of divine guidance must needs follow the darkness of the night of error. For this reason, in all chronicles and traditions reference hath been made unto these things, namely that iniquity shall cover the surface of the earth and darkness shall envelop mankind. As the traditions referred to are well known, and as the purpose of this servant is to be brief, He will refrain from quoting the text of these traditions...."

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Therin lays the demise of Christianity

Matthew 24:42-43"Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. "But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into.."

Revelation 3:3 'So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you."

Revelation 3:20 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Regards Tony

Click to expand...

You continue to demonstrate a complete inability to understand the scriptures you cite. Staying awake has nothing to do with actively seeking out the time of the Second Coming - which both can't be known beforehand and which will be made evident to all when it comes. The point is that you persevere in Christ - vs saying, "Oh, he'll return at this time, so I'll just tidy up and be ready THEN - the rest of the time I'll continue living my sinful life as per usual."

adrian009 said:

For me what you have written is a great example of the type of rigid thinking most adherents of Judaism took leading them to reject Jesus as their Messiah.

I've already shown you that the phrase 'all eyes shall see Him' applied equally to Jesus as it does to his return. A similar phrase is used by the author the Gospel of Luke.

As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
Luke 3:4-6

Click to expand...

It refers to the fact that Christ died for everyone, and has, in fact, made salvation available to everyone. Yes - even those who came before him, even those who never heard the Gospel. Indeed, he is called the Last Adam. For just as Adam introduced death to all, so Christ introduced life to all.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

1 Corinthians 15:45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

At any rate, all prophecy must be fulfilled. You can attempt to argue the sense in which a prophecy is fulfilled maybe different than expected, but it must still be fulfilled. You can't take a prophecy that says all will see and turn around and say, "oh, yea, that means no one will see it."