Can Islamic and Christian Theological Concepts of God be reconciled?

I said no, confidently and unequivocally. I don't think that anything called "Christian theology" will ever be reconciled with anything called "Muslim theology."

iam1me said:

The heavens will disappear with a roar... the elements destroyed by fire... the earth and everything laid bare... Oh, yea, I'm sure no one will notice that And definitely makes me think of the events of 1844... not.

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Perhaps you didn't notice but then others perceived signs that many missed.

And he said also to the people, When ye see a cloud rise out of the west, straightway ye say, There cometh a shower; and so it is.
And when ye see the south wind blow, ye say, There will be heat; and it cometh to pass.
Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time?
Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?
Luke 12:54-57

Every eye could see Jesus and many heavenly signs too:

As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
Luke 3:4-6

Except they saw but failed to apprehend the meaning of the signs.

And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
John 9:39-41

Jim said:

I said no, confidently and unequivocally. I don't think that anything called "Christian theology" will ever be reconciled with anything called "Muslim theology."

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I appreciate your honesty and its good to have certainty in life.

@adrian009 I don't even understand what you could mean by reconciling them. Do you mean modifying them, to make them agree with each other? Do you mean finding ways to interpret them, to make them agree with each other? Also, there are many Muslim theologies opposed to each other, and many Christian theologies opposed to each other. There are even contradictions within each theology that the theologians themselves agree can not be reconciled. Look at the Trinity doctrine. I'll come back later and look through the thread to see if I can figure out what you mean by reconciling the theological concepts. And why? It's the people who need to be reconciled, not the concepts. I think that the idea of trying to reconcile them only diverts and distracts from the work that needs to be done, and actually helps perpetuate the divisions, and even intensifies the animosities across liberal/conservative divides.

But I could be wrong. I've been wrong before sometimes.

iam1me said:

Oh, yea, I'm sure no one will notice that - and no doubt it all happened in 1844

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Yes it did and thus one can say it caught most well and truly like a thief in the night, naked and shamefully unclothed. Even knowing the year they had no idea what they were looking for.

As to prophecy, if one waits for a material unfoldment, then they did not learn from the mistake the jews have made in rejecting Christ the first time.

All the while in Persia there were souls that had fulfilled the requirement and saw prophecy unfold in all its splendor. All foretold in the Bible. That in 1260 the Glory of the Lord would come by the way of the Gate facing East. As such Carmel and Sharon did see the Glory of God.

Its all there in the Bible.

Regards Tony

Jim said:

@adrian009 I don't even understand what you could mean by reconciling them. Do you mean modifying them, to make them agree with each other? Do you mean finding ways to interpret them, to make them agree with each other? Also, there are many Muslim theologies opposed to each other, and many Christian theologies opposed to each other. There are even contradictions within each theology that the theologians themselves agree can not be reconciled. Look at the Trinity doctrine. I'll come back later and look through the thread to see if I can figure out what you mean by reconciling the theological concepts. And why? It's the people who need to be reconciled, not the concepts. I think that the idea of trying to reconcile them only diverts and distracts from the work that needs to be done, and actually helps perpetuate the divisions, and even intensifies the animosities across liberal/conservative divides.

But I could be wrong. I've been wrong before sometimes.

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If you look at this thread and when it was started you will see it goes back to June last year. I started a similar thread around the same time to consider the specific theological differences.

What are the Key Theological Differences between Islam and Christianity Regarding Concepts of God

Why did I start these threads? To better understand the similarities and differences in Christian and Islamic worldviews. I've learnt a great deal since then and have come to a much deeper appreciation of Muhammad and the Quran. Along the road I've met a lot of amazing people online who have taught me what I need to know, yourself included.

As you will appreciate an Islamic theology is a worldview based around Muhammad and the Quran, as a Christian worldview is based around Christ and the New Testament. Here we have the two largest and most influential religions who have often been in conflict with each other. We can't change history and although a lot of it hasn't been about religion, some of it has. So the question is about ways of understanding or interpreting each Revelation that might resolve the key theological differences identified in the second thread.

To be clear, I'm here primarily to learn. Its also good to meet new people too. Hope that makes sense.

iam1me said:

By definition, a Christian is a follower of Christ. Christ was a Jewish Rabbi and the Jewish Messiah. The disciples were Jewish, Paul was Jewish, etc. So... yea, Jewish. By definition.

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Agreed.

iam1me said:

They are regarded by religious scholars as distinct sects. It is useful to distinguish different sects of any religion when digging into matters where they differ. This applies between Christianity and other Jewish sects, and between the many sects just under the umbrella of Christianity. Catholic vs Protestant vs Orthodox. Calvinism vs Arminianism. Trinitarianism vs Arianism. etc. You can do the same for any major religion - they all have different sects that can vary significantly in doctrine.

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This is how I undserstand sects:

Sect - Wikipedia

So all the sects of Christianity you list I agree are sects. However sometimes sects become independant religions that have fundamentally different theologicies from each other. Examples are Christianity in relation to Judaism, Buddhism in relation to Hinduism and the Baha'i Faith in relation to Islam. Although we can identify the parent religion and its offshoot, the offshoot is quite different from other offshoots of the parent religion.

iam1me said:

If it emerged from Judaism then it is a Jewish sect, end of story. There is no good argument for saying that Christianity at some point ceased to be a Jewish sect - Judaism is the foundation of Christianity.

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I wonder why its so important for you to think of Christianity as still being a Jewish sect.

Here's how many Jews see it:

For a long time Christianity regarded itself as part of Judaism. It had its center in Jerusalem (Irenæus, "Adversus Hæreses, i. 26); its first fifteen bishops were circumcised Jews, they observed the Law and were rather unfriendly to heathenism (Sulpicius Severus, "Historia Sacra," ii. 31; Eusebius, "Hist. Eccl." iv. 5; compare Matt. xv. 26), while they held friendly intercourse with the leaders of the synagogue (see Grätz, "Gesch. der Juden," iv. 373 et seq.; and Ebionites, Minim, and Nazarenes). Many a halakic and haggadic discussion is recorded in the Talmud as having taken place between the Christians and the Rabbis (see Jacob the Gnostic). Probably the Christian Congregation, or Church of the Saints, did not distinguish itself in outward form from the "Ḳehala Ḳaddisha" at Jerusalem, under which name the Essene community survived the downfall of the Temple (Ber. 9b; compare Eccl. R. ix. 9: 'Edah Ḳedoshah). Of course, the destruction of the Temple and of the Judean state and the cessation of sacrifice could not but promote the cause of Christianity (see Justin, "Dial. cum Tryph." xi.); and under the impression of these important events the Gospels were written and accordingly colored. Still, Jew and Christian looked in common for the erection of the kingdom of heaven by the Messiah either soon to appear or to reappear (see Joël, "Blicke in die Religionsgesch." i. 32 et seq.). It was during the last struggle with Rome in the days of Bar Kokba and Akiba that, amidst denunciations on the part of the Christians and execrations on the part of the Jewish leaders, those hostilities began which separated Church and Synagogue forever, and made the former an ally of the arch-enemy. Pauline Christianity greatly aided in the Romanizing of the Church. It gravitated toward Rome as toward the great world-empire, and soon the Church became in the eyes of the Jew heir to Edom (Gen. xxvii. 40). The emperor Constantine completed what Paul had begun—a world hostile to the faith in which Jesus had lived and died. The Council of Nice in 325 determined that Church and Synagogue should have nothing in common, and that whatever smacked of the unity of God and of the freedom of man, or offered a Jewish aspect of worship, must be eliminated from Catholic Christendom.

CHRISTIANITY IN ITS RELATION TO JUDAISM - JewishEncyclopedia.com

iam1me said:

Most Christians would NOT agree with you that Christianity isn't rooted in Judaism - and thus a Jewish sect - both historically and presently. At no point did Christians abandon the idea that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah, or that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Moses.

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Sure, but they would agree Christianity has moved from being a sect to an independant religion. I talk to a lot of Christians.

iam1me said:

As far as what Trinitarians assert, they believe there is only one God. Indeed, the need to maintain monotheism was a primary guide for theologians - who explicitly did not want to say Jesus was a second god (though there were certain church fathers who stated as much).

Of course, when you attempt to evaluate it logically it starts to fall apart - which is why they inevitably fallback to calling it a mystery that can't be understood.

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While I agree with most of Christianity, there are several key aspects of traditional Christianity, that are not logical, the trinity being one of them. It used to bother me many years ago but no longer.

iam1me said:

That was in reply to your assertion that Christianity is distinct from Judaism and Islam in that it has a triune God. The fact of the matter is that the doctrine of the Trinity is something that developed hundreds of years after Christ and is not taught by the scriptures. There are many who hold to Trinitarianism, and many who reject it. It isn't a requisite or definitive belief of Christianity (though Trinitarians may try to assert as much).

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I agree. Many Trinitarians will assert that non-Trinitarians are not true Christians. Another problem is the Jehovah Witnesses don't believe in the trinity and they in turn have a very negative view of other Christain denominations. You're not a closet JW are you?

iam1me said:

The real problem is that, by and large, people don't study their beliefs. They just go with whatever their local church handbook says, whatever happens to be taught at their pulpit on Sunday, and they don't question it. That said, not unexpected.

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

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That is true.

iam1me said:

That is saying a lot - it's saying that this man, Jesus of Nazareth, is the long awaited Messiah of the Jewish people. He is the one through whom God has decided to reconcile all of mankind back to himself, it is through him that all may have forgiveness and life. To claim it's not saying very much only shows you lack understanding of Christ's significance.

Also, a Christian is more than one who merely just accepts Christ's identity - but one who is a follower of Christ, who accepts and obeys his teachings (and hence doesn't toss them aside to make them fit with other conflicting religions and philosophies).

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My response which has prompted you to self righteously mount your high horse was in response to minimising the differences between Judaism and Christianity.

iam1me said:

It is the nature of religion and philosophy that accepting one view as truth means rejecting those that conflict.

You attempt to merge everything into one - but in the process you are forced to reject the core teachings and practices of those religions and philosophies. The irony.

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I'm good with seeing similarities between Moses, Christ and Muhammad. The Torah, New Testament and Quran having been revealed over a two thousand years in vastly different cultures make perfect sense when considering the historic circumstances from which they emerged. Their essential Teachings have a great deal in common.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Yes it did and thus one can say it caught most well and truly like a thief in the night, naked and shamefully unclothed. Even knowing the year they had no idea what they were looking for.

As to prophecy, if one waits for a material unfoldment, then they did not learn from the mistake the jews have made in rejecting Christ the first time.

All the while in Persia there were souls that had fulfilled the requirement and saw prophecy unfold in all its splendor. All foretold in the Bible. That in 1260 the Glory of the Lord would come by the way of the Gate facing East. As such Carmel and Sharon did see the Glory of God.

Its all there in the Bible.

Regards Tony

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The problem is always context. You've got to have more than a few words taken out of context to make something a prophecy. What is the context here that makes you think you can make those few words a prophecy? If because The Bab means "The Gate"? It was a title given to him. Same with the "Glory of God"?. So where are they in the context of the vision?
Ezekiel 43:
1Then the man brought me back to the gate that faces east, 2and I saw the glory of the God of Israel coming from the east. His voice was like the roar of many waters, and the earth shone with His glory.

3The vision I saw was like the one I had seen when He camea to destroy the city, and like the ones I had seen by the River Kebar. I fell facedown, 4and the glory of the LORD entered the temple through the gate facing east. 5Then the Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court, and the glory of the LORD filled the temple.

6While the man was standing beside me, I heard someone speaking to me from inside the temple, 7and He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place for the soles of My feet, where I will dwell among the Israelites forever. The house of Israel will never again defile My holy name—neither they nor their kings—by their prostitution and by the funeral offeringsb for their kings at their deaths.c 8When they placed their threshold next to My threshold and their doorposts beside My doorposts, with only a wall between Me and them, they defiled My holy name by the abominations they committed. Therefore I have consumed them in My anger. 9Now let them remove far from Me their prostitution and the funeral offerings for their kings, and I will dwell among them forever.

10As for you, son of man, describe the temple to the people of Israel, so that they may be ashamed of their iniquities. Let them measure the plan, 11and if they are ashamed of all they have done, then make known to them the design of the temple—its arrangement and its exits and entrances—its whole design along with all its statutes, forms, and laws. Write it down in their sight, so that they may observe its complete design and all its statutes, and may carry them out.

12This is the law of the temple: All its surrounding territory on top of the mountain will be most holy. Yes, this is the law of the temple.

The Altar of Sacrifice

13These are the measurements of the altar in long cubitsd (a cubit and a handbreadth): Its gutter shall be a cubit deep and a cubit wide, with a rim of one spane around its edge.

And this is the height of the altar: 14The space from the gutter on the ground to the lower ledge shall be two cubits high and one cubit wide,f and from the smaller ledge to the larger ledge shall be four cubits high and one cubit wide.g

15The altar hearth shall be four cubits high, and four horns shall project upward from the hearth. 16The altar hearth shall be square at its four corners, twelve cubitsh long and twelve cubits wide. 17The ledge shall also be square, fourteen cubitsi long and fourteen cubits wide, with a rim of half a cubitj and a gutter of a cubit all around it. The steps of the altar shall face east.”

18Then He said to me: “Son of man, this is what the Lord GOD says: ‘These are the statutes for the altar on the day it is constructed, so that burnt offerings may be sacrificed on it and blood may be sprinkled on it: 19You are to give a young bull from the herd as a sin offering to the Levitical priests who are of the family of Zadok, who approach Me to minister before Me, declares the Lord GOD. 20You are to take some of its blood and put it on the four horns of the altar, on the four corners of the ledge, and all around the rim; thus you will cleanse the altar and make atonement for it. 21Then you are to take away the bull for the sin offering and burn it in the appointed part of the temple area outside the sanctuary.

22On the second day you are to present an unblemished male goat as a sin offering, and the altar is to be cleansed as it was with the bull. 23When you have finished the purification, you are to present a young, unblemished bull and an unblemished ram from the flock. 24You must present them before the LORD; the priests are to sprinkle salt on them and sacrifice them as a burnt offering to the LORD.

25For seven days you are to provide a male goat daily for a sin offering; you are also to provide a young bull and a ram from the flock, both unblemished. 26For seven days the priests are to make atonement for the altar and cleanse it; so they shall consecrate it.k 27At the end of these days, from the eighth day on, the priests are to present your burnt offerings and peace offerings on the altar. Then I will accept you, declares the Lord GOD.’”

iam1me said:

Revelations 1:7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”b]">[b] and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”c]">[c] So shall it be! Amen.

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It's always difficult to figure out what is really going to happen in these prophecies. Baha'is explain "clouds" very well. They are like veils we put on our eyes from seeing the truth. But, Baha'is have veils too. This person, that is seen by all, is the one that was "pierced". That is Jesus, not Baha'u'llah. So Christians can show, easily, why they are right, and Baha'is can explain the symbolic language in a way to make sense that it is Baha'u'llah.

But, isn't the "Return of Christ" supposed to completely change people? Aren't the wicked to be done away with? Like you said, everyone will know the Lord and see His coming? Are all the tribulations supposed to happen before Christ returns? If so, then Christ has not returned. And for the Baha'is, technically, Christ has already returned with Muhammad and The Bab. So lots of things didn't get fulfilled by those "returns". And, there are some still not fulfilled by Baha'u'llah. Yet, the Baha'is have said many times that all the prophecies have been fulfilled. For me, many of those "fulfillments" are very questionable.

CG Didymus said:

The problem is always context. You've got to have more than a few words taken out of context to make something a prophecy. What is the context here that makes you think you can make those few words a prophecy? If because The Bab means "The Gate"? It was a title given to him. Same with the "Glory of God"?. So where are they in the context of the vision?

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I have given my thoughts on this before, I offer them again as there in no official Baha'i view on most of the Bible.

I consider that prophecy is not bound by time as we see it. Thus each part of Prophecy is its own Truth that tells a story in a context that unfolds over decades, or centuries, or even thousands of years.

I see prophecy is much like dreaming. We know that when we dream we traverse many different scenarios in a short space of time, but it makes up the one dream that may unfold in life over many years, I personally have moments of strong Déjà vu.

Thus we get out of prophecy as to where we are in our search for God, what is our heart seeing?

I personally can not see all prophecy in a clear and unfolded way, nor can I see Gods Word clear as day, but I can pick up key aspects within as to enable me to meditate upon the remander.

All the while we have guidance we can use about what to look for in a true prophet. Like a good tree provides good fruit, a bad tree is hewn down etc.

Thus I will post some of what I can see in your posted quote in a seperate post.

Regards Tony

CG Didymus said:

Ezekiel 43:

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Some thoughts before I start. The Messages and Revelations of the Bab and Baha'u'llah are bound together, they are each part of the whole. There were Two Manifestations of God, born of the Holy Spirit living on the earth at one time, this has not happened in the history of religion to this day.

CG Didymus said:

Then the man brought me back to the gate that faces east, 2and I saw the glory of the God of Israel coming from the east. His voice was like the roar of many waters, and the earth shone with His glory.

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This vision, was of the Bab and Baha'u'llah, The vision shows that the Bab is the Gate that we must enter to see Baha'u'llah 'Glory of God'. Baha'u'llah's Message was to light the entire earth and it was as a torrent. It has been previously explained that the revelations of the Bab and Baha'u'llah flowed from them in copious amounts, just like the roar of many raging rivers.

CG Didymus said:

The vision I saw was like the one I had seen when He camea to destroy the city, and like the ones I had seen by the River Kebar. I fell facedown,

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Could tie back to this verse... "Now it came to pass . . . as I was among the captives by the River Chebar . . . I saw visions of God. . . . This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. – Ezekiel 1:1, 28

Most amazingly Ezekiel had this vision in the very place, nearly 2,300 years later, where Baha’u’llah declared His mission to the world, while an exile from His native Persia. Ezekiel further explains this glory of the Lord as a person as we continue.

CG Didymus said:

4and the glory of the LORD entered the temple through the gate facing east. 5Then the Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court, and the glory of the LORD filled the temple.

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Thus Baha'u'llah (Glory of the Lord) came via the Bab (Gate) from Persia to the Holy Land. The inner court and Baha'u'llah filling the temple I can not think of anything as yet.

CG Didymus said:

6While the man was standing beside me, I heard someone speaking to me from inside the temple, 7and He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place for the soles of My feet, where I will dwell among the Israelites forever. The house of Israel will never again defile My holy name—neither they nor their kings—by their prostitution and by the funeral offeringsb for their kings at their deaths.c 8When they placed their threshold next to My threshold and their doorposts beside My doorposts, with only a wall between Me and them, they defiled My holy name by the abominations they committed. Therefore I have consumed them in My anger. 9Now let them remove far from Me their prostitution and the funeral offerings for their kings, and I will dwell among them forever.

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General thoughts on this one.

The new place of the throne, the new Jerusalem is the Akka/Haifa/Mt Carmel area. It was from Akka that Baha'u'llah wrote to all the Kings and rulers of the earth. The wall I see placed is that of only acceptance, one of belief. Both the Bab and Baha'u'llah's holy thresholds are there. The all powerful monarchs, rulers and religious divines of the time of Baha'u'llah were consumed and lost the power they had. These Baha'i holy places in Israel are now set in place, the law of Baha'u'llah will not cease from flowing from here and is a far cry from what comes from the governments of this world at this time.

CG Didymus said:

10As for you, son of man, describe the temple to the people of Israel, so that they may be ashamed of their iniquities. Let them measure the plan, 11and if they are ashamed of all they have done, then make known to them the design of the temple—its arrangement and its exits and entrances—its whole design along with all its statutes, forms, and laws. Write it down in their sight, so that they may observe its complete design and all its statutes, and may carry them out.12This is the law of the temple: All its surrounding territory on top of the mountain will be most holy. Yes, this is the law of the temple.

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Well that just to me describes the Message of Baha'u'llah and the seat of the Universal House of Justice, with the shrine of the Bab and the surrounding gardens on Mt Carmel. Mt Carmel was to see the 'Glory of the Lord' in Isaiah 35:2 "it will burst into bloom; it will rejoice greatly and shout for joy. The glory of Lebanon will be given to it, the splendor of Carmel and Sharon; they will see the glory of the LORD, the splendor of our God."

CG Didymus said:

The Altar of Sacrifice

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I do not know the significance of most of these passages, do they describe some aspect of the Arc on Mt Carmel? Or do each describe some aspect of the Message of Baha'u'llah? My heart has a lot yet to consider.

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Some thoughts before I start. The Messages and Revelations of the Bab and Baha'u'llah are bound together, they are each part of the whole. There were Two Manifestations of God, born of the Holy Spirit living on the earth at one time, this has not happened in the history of religion to this day.



This vision, was of the Bab and Baha'u'llah, The vision shows that the Bab is the Gate that we must enter to see Baha'u'llah 'Glory of God'. Baha'u'llah's Message was to light the entire earth and it was as a torrent. It has been previously explained that the revelations of the Bab and Baha'u'llah flowed from them in copious amounts, just like the roar of many raging rivers.



Could tie back to this verse... "Now it came to pass . . . as I was among the captives by the River Chebar . . . I saw visions of God. . . . This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. – Ezekiel 1:1, 28

Most amazingly Ezekiel had this vision in the very place, nearly 2,300 years later, where Baha’u’llah declared His mission to the world, while an exile from His native Persia. Ezekiel further explains this glory of the Lord as a person as we continue.



Thus Baha'u'llah (Glory of the Lord) came via the Bab (Gate) from Persia to the Holy Land. The inner court and Baha'u'llah filling the temple I can not think of anything as yet.



General thoughts on this one.

The new place of the throne, the new Jerusalem is the Akka/Haifa/Mt Carmel area. It was from Akka that Baha'u'llah wrote to all the Kings and rulers of the earth. The wall I see placed is that of only acceptance, one of belief. Both the Bab and Baha'u'llah's holy thresholds are there. The all powerful monarchs, rulers and religious divines of the time of Baha'u'llah were consumed and lost the power they had. These Baha'i holy places in Israel are now set in place, the law of Baha'u'llah will not cease from flowing from here and is a far cry from what comes from the governments of this world at this time.



Well that just to me describes the Message of Baha'u'llah and the seat of the Universal House of Justice, with the shrine of the Bab and the surrounding gardens on Mt Carmel. Mt Carmel was to see the 'Glory of the Lord' in Isaiah 35:2 "it will burst into bloom; it will rejoice greatly and shout for joy. The glory of Lebanon will be given to it, the splendor of Carmel and Sharon; they will see the glory of the LORD, the splendor of our God."



I do not know the significance of most of these passages, do they describe some aspect of the Arc on Mt Carmel? Or do each describe some aspect of the Message of Baha'u'llah? My heart has a lot yet to consider.

Regards Tony

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Valiant effort. Here's the questionable prophecies about Jesus that I ask Christians to answer.

Out of Egypt? The problem there is Luke has the family go to Jerusalem, where Herod was, and then back home to Nazareth. Rachel weeping? Again, only Matthew says the killing of the kids ever happened, but he found a verse that he could use to say the event fulfilled a prophesy. The third one says that Jesus would be called a "Nazarene" because he came from Nazareth. But coming from the town of Nazareth doesn't make a person a Nazarene. From Wikipedia:
Naturally, Christians have no problem making these prophesies, Although, they are out of context or the reference can't be found. I hope Baha'is don't and aren't doing this. But, what do Jews do with these "prophesies"? Believe the Christian interpretation and disregard that the verses are problematic? And, one other prophesy that Baha'is and Christians use. It's the one about unto us a child is born and that the government will be on his shoulders. Christians easily make this about Jesus, because they have a Virgin child being born. But, when was the rest of the prophesy fulfilled? Never. Christians say that Jesus will put the government on his shoulders when he returns. So what do we have? A prophesy about a child being born that doesn't have the government on his shoulders. Two more manifestations, Muhammad and The Bab, that don't have the government on their shoulders. And, finally, Baha'u'llah, who could be said to have put the government on his shoulders. But, he was not the "unto" child?

Anyway, I don't blame the Jews who have studied the Christian Scriptures and have found that Jesus hasn't fulfilled the prophecies. Same with Christians that have rejected Muhammad, The Bab, and Baha'u'llah. A good case can be made that many key prophesies have not been fulfilled.

CG Didymus said:

It's always difficult to figure out what is really going to happen in these prophecies. Baha'is explain "clouds" very well. They are like veils we put on our eyes from seeing the truth. But, Baha'is have veils too. This person, that is seen by all, is the one that was "pierced". That is Jesus, not Baha'u'llah. So Christians can show, easily, why they are right, and Baha'is can explain the symbolic language in a way to make sense that it is Baha'u'llah.

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There WAS a veil over under the Old Covenant, but not under the New Covenant with Christ. If you want to argue that some NT prophecy is vague, I'd agree. However, most NT prophecy is fairly straight-forward as far as what is going to occur.



Furthermore, when speaking of fulfilling prophecy, all such prophecies must be fulfilled. You can't take "every eye shall see, every ear shall hear, etc." and say "Oh, that really means no one saw or heard it." Furthermore, the scriptures are extremely clear with regards Christ's return that NO ONE knows when that will be except for God. There's no deducing it, no hidden combination of scriptures or mysticism to reveal it.

But, isn't the "Return of Christ" supposed to completely change people? Aren't the wicked to be done away with? Like you said, everyone will know the Lord and see His coming? Are all the tribulations supposed to happen before Christ returns? If so, then Christ has not returned. And for the Baha'is, technically, Christ has already returned with Muhammad and The Bab. So lots of things didn't get fulfilled by those "returns". And, there are some still not fulfilled by Baha'u'llah. Yet, the Baha'is have said many times that all the prophecies have been fulfilled. For me, many of those "fulfillments" are very questionable.

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There are a number of things that occur upon Christ's return - starting with a huge battle, a 1000 years of piece, the Judgement, and finally the remaking of the heaven's and the earth. It is my interpretation that the tribulations would occur prior to Christ's return, though there are those who have alternative views (Pre-trib rapture). Also, while I haven't really dug into it, Catholics maintain all or part of Revelations is history.

adrian009 said:

Perhaps you didn't notice but then others perceived signs that many missed.

And he said also to the people, When ye see a cloud rise out of the west, straightway ye say, There cometh a shower; and so it is.
And when ye see the south wind blow, ye say, There will be heat; and it cometh to pass.
Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time?
Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?
Luke 12:54-57

Every eye could see Jesus and many heavenly signs too:

As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
Luke 3:4-6

Except they saw but failed to apprehend the meaning of the signs.

And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
John 9:39-41

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Except for in the case of 1844, NO ONE saw anything. Hence the guy who gave the first prediction went back and made a second prediction of when it was going to occur - which also came and passed without incident.

It's one thing to say that people didn't recognize what was going on - it's quite another for people to have seen nothing, for the events described in the prophecy to not occur.

At any rate, the very basis of a guy deducing when Christ's return will be is fundamentally flawed and at odds with the testimony of the scriptures on the matter.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Yes it did and thus one can say it caught most well and truly like a thief in the night, naked and shamefully unclothed. Even knowing the year they had no idea what they were looking for.

As to prophecy, if one waits for a material unfoldment, then they did not learn from the mistake the jews have made in rejecting Christ the first time.

All the while in Persia there were souls that had fulfilled the requirement and saw prophecy unfold in all its splendor. All foretold in the Bible. That in 1260 the Glory of the Lord would come by the way of the Gate facing East. As such Carmel and Sharon did see the Glory of God.

Its all there in the Bible.

Regards Tony

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You can't say that the prophecies of the end days were fulfilled when no one saw anything, in contrast to the prophecies declaring that "every eye shall see, every knee shall bow," etc. The heavens are still here.

At any rate, the entire premise of your position - having a man deduce the time of Christ's return - is fundamentally flawed and folly to believe. The very source from which these predictions were made - the scriptures - are quite explicit that no one knows when the time of Christ's return will be. You ignore and cherry pick the scriptures to try to defend your clearly false doctrine - but you aren't fooling anyone.

iam1me said:

You ignore and cherry pick the scriptures to try to defend your clearly false doctrine - but you aren't fooling anyone.

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That is true, as we are the only ones that can fool our own selves.

Regards Tony

iam1me said:

You can't say that the prophecies of the end days were fulfilled when no one saw anything, in contrast to the prophecies declaring that "every eye shall see, every knee shall bow," etc. The heavens are still here.

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It can be considered everyone is just using the wrong eye to see Christ returned.

1 Samuel 16:7 "But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.”

Thus the bible has given guidance as to what are reliable eyes and that it is our heart.

2 Corinthians 4:18 "As we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal."

Every heart has Christ within, all things were made new and there was a new heaven and a new earth, a new Jerusalem. Every eye shall see.

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

It can be considered everyone is just using the wrong eye to see Christ returned.

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Even if what is being referred to is some sort of spiritual eye rather than the physical eye, it doesn't change the fact that everyone will see it.

iam1me said:

Except for in the case of 1844, NO ONE saw anything. Hence the guy who gave the first prediction went back and made a second prediction of when it was going to occur - which also came and passed without incident.

It's one thing to say that people didn't recognize what was going on - it's quite another for people to have seen nothing, for the events described in the prophecy to not occur.

At any rate, the very basis of a guy deducing when Christ's return will be is fundamentally flawed and at odds with the testimony of the scriptures on the matter.

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The facts speak for themselves. The Baha'i Faith was born in 1844 and gave rise to a worldwide movement of 5 - 10 million followrs world wide. Despite the deaths of 20,000 of the early Baha'i followers it fluorished. Concerted efforts were made by both the Persian and Ottoman Empires to extinguish its light over a 75 year period knowing full well the claims of its Founder. Baha'u'llah Himself being exiled and imprisoned for 40 years simply resulted in its spread around the globe.

So something did happen in 1844. It just wasn't what William Miller was expecting. Like the Jews when Christ came he interpreted the signs of the Advent of the Return of Christ literally.

adrian009 said:

The facts speak for themselves. The Baha'i Faith was born in 1844 and gave rise to a worldwide movement of 5 - 10 million followrs world wide. Despite the deaths of 20,000 of the early Baha'i followers it fluorished. Concerted efforts were made by both the Persian and Ottoman Empires to extinguish its light over a 75 year period knowing full well the claims of its Founder. Baha'u'llah Himself being exiled and imprisoned for 40 years simply resulted in its spread around the globe.

So something did happen in 1844. It just wasn't what William Miller was expecting. Like the Jews when Christ came he interpreted the signs of the Advent of the Return of Christ literally.

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The Baha'i faith has nothing to do with the fulfillment of those prophecies. If you want to say that the birth of this new faith fulfilled, in a spiritual sense, people seeing/hearing - it still fails. For the prophecy is that all eyes will see. Thus, short of everyone switching over to the Bahai Faith, you can't claim this faith fulfilled that aspect of prophecy (not to mention all the other aspects of the end days like the heavens disappearing, the elements being destroyed with fire, the war, the 1000 years of peace, the judgement, etc etc).

And, of course, your position blatantly disregards the scriptural testimony that the Second Coming will be like a Thief in the Night: No one knowing the time of his coming.