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Isaiah 53 Suffering Servant

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Found it!

It's clear to me that the scribe of the Isaiah Dead Sea Scroll (1QIsa^a) intended to write a "yud" making the 5th word different than the conventionally accepted version of 52:14.

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sooda

Veteran Member
Actually, he was anointed by the Holy Spirit at his baptism with the dove and voice from heaven. That would be a greater anointing that all others point to

Anointing is done with oil not water. Tvilah, a Jewish purification ritual of immersing in water. Its repeatable, while baptism is to be performed only once.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
zip-your-lip-mouth-zip-it.gif



Isaiah 53:6-8 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
We had all wandered away like sheep. We had gone our own way. And yet the Lord put all our guilt on him.

He was treated badly, but he never protested. He said nothing, like a lamb being led away to be killed. He was like a sheep that makes no sound as its wool is being cut off. He never opened his mouth to defend himself. He was taken away by force and judged unfairly. The people of his time did not even notice that he was killed. But he was put to death for the sins of his people.

Isaiah 53:6-8 Contemporary English Version (CEV)
All of us were like sheep
that had wandered off.
We had each gone our own way,
but the Lord gave him
the punishment we deserved.

He was painfully abused,
but he did not complain.
He was silent like a lamb
being led to the butcher,
as quiet as a sheep
having its wool cut off.

He was condemned to death
without a fair trial.
Who could have imagined
what would happen to him?
His life was taken away
because of the sinful things
my people had done.

Isaiah 53:6-8 Good News Translation (GNT)
All of us were like sheep that were lost,
each of us going his own way.
But the Lord made the punishment fall on him,
the punishment all of us deserved.

“He was treated harshly, but endured it humbly;
he never said a word.
Like a lamb about to be slaughtered,
like a sheep about to be sheared,
he never said a word.
He was arrested and sentenced and led off to die,
and no one cared about his fate.
He was put to death for the sins of our people.

Isaiah 53:6-8 Living Bible (TLB)
We—every one of us—have strayed away like sheep! We, who left God’s paths to follow our own. Yet God laid on him the guilt and sins of every one of us!

He was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet he never said a word. He was brought as a lamb to the slaughter; and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he stood silent before the ones condemning him. From prison and trial they led him away to his death. But who among the people of that day realized it was their sins that he was dying for—that he was suffering their punishment?

idioms-and-phrases-with-meanings-straight-from-the-horses-mouth-1024x768.jpg
None of these are translations of the text. They are all interpretations and interpolations obviously meant to draw the reader away from the simple translation which clearly disproves Jesus as the messiah, since he had opened his mouth multiple times.
The history of Israel was violent because its neighbors are violent.
The Israelites are the holy nation of God, God's chosen people in those days.
And their application of violence was ordered by God and when they sinned those violence were not sanctioned.
Was ancient Israel violent? Without a doubt as I have listed the many battles and the biblical references.

And having said that ancient Israel did violence as a fact
Then it is not the servant mentioned in Isa 53
Because of its involvement in violence, not once but many times.
If ancient Israel isn't the servant, maybe the present State of Israel qualifies as


Isaiah 53:9 New International Version (NIV)
He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

I guess not.
All you're doing here is reiterating what you've said instead of arguing against the point I've made. I'm not sure why you think that's a valid response.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Found it!

It's clear to me that the scribe of the Isaiah Dead Sea Scroll (1QIsa^a) intended to write a "yud" making the 5th word different than the conventionally accepted version of 52:14.

View attachment 28237

View attachment 28238
This is a point that another poster not comfortable with Biblical Hebrew tried making. The new interpretation using the "yod" in place of the "vav" is not one that makes sense in Hebrew. A "visage" is not a tangible thing and by extension not something that can be anointed. As opposed to that, the letters "yod" and "vav" are often interchanged, such that it's common to find the word "הוא" pronounced "he" and "היא" pronounced as "hu". The present version is the more likely one.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
This is a point that another poster not comfortable with Biblical Hebrew tried making. The new interpretation using the "yod" in place of the "vav" is not one that makes sense in Hebrew.

A "visage" is not a tangible thing and by extension not something that can be anointed.

As opposed to that, the letters "yod" and "vav" are often interchanged, such that it's common to find the word "הוא" pronounced "he" and "היא" pronounced as "hu". The present version is the more likely one.

Thanks... Visage is facial "expression", isn't it?
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Thanks... Visage is facial "expression", isn't it?
I was under the impression that visage is the "look" of the face in total. In Hebrew, this word comes from the root meaning "see". It's not the face itself, but the look of the face.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
I was under the impression that visage is the "look" of the face in total. In Hebrew, this word comes from the root meaning "see". It's not the face itself, but the look of the face.

Yes.. that's probably more accurate than "expression" .. Years ago I thought Jesus was the suffering servant until I read it again and again very carefully.. Clearly, it is NOT about Jesus.

Its not right for Christians to hijack these scriptures.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
The present version is the more likely one.
The present version makes the Servant of the Lord disfigured or we have David being paraphrased as the anointed one (Psalms 89:19-21), which makes the most sense?
A "visage" is not a tangible thing and by extension not something that can be anointed.
(his visage) מראהו (from man) מאישׁ (I anointed) משׁחתי

In my opinion. :innocent:
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
This is a point that another poster not comfortable with Biblical Hebrew tried making. The new interpretation using the "yod" in place of the "vav" is not one that makes sense in Hebrew. A "visage" is not a tangible thing and by extension not something that can be anointed. As opposed to that, the letters "yod" and "vav" are often interchanged, such that it's common to find the word "הוא" pronounced "he" and "היא" pronounced as "hu". The present version is the more likely one.
Thank you for your reply. That's good info to have in my toolbox :)
 

sooda

Veteran Member
The present version makes the Servant of the Lord disfigured or we have David being paraphrased as the anointed one (Psalms 89:19-21), which makes the most sense?

(his visage) מראהו (from man) מאישׁ (I anointed) משׁחתי

In my opinion. :innocent:

Isaiah 53 does not actually mention the Messiah. In fact, when we look closely at the chapter, it is hard to find anything in it that is applicable to either the (Jewish) Messiah or to Jesus. Verse 1 does not actually say that the servant's message would not be believed, but merely asks, "Who can believe what we have heard?" There seems to be no prophecy there at all.

Nor is there any indication that the servant would be arrested as a criminal or scourged or crucified with criminals or make intercession for his persecutors. None of that is in there. Verse 6 does say, "the Lord visited upon him the guilt of us all," but there are other interpretations of that than the Christian one.

There is a Judaic interpretation of Isa 53 that seems plausible. The suffering servant is the nation of Israel which is represented by King Uzziah, who was its king in Isaiah's time and who died of leprosy.

According to Shmuel Golding, Isaiah's message may have been: "Here is your leprous king, who is in type suffering under God's hand for you the backslidden servant nation of Israel" (which explains verse 6). Uzziah was taken away from the royal palace because of his affliction as a leper and spent his remaining years in isolation, which fits verse 8. Golding says the following:

The king was disfigured by leprosy.

David was an anointed king.... but no mention of him in the Servant Song.

Servant Song isn't prophecy.

The Argument from the Bible

Psalm 89:19-21 King James Version (KJV)
19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.

20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:

21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Anointing is done with oil not water. Tvilah, a Jewish purification ritual of immersing in water. Its repeatable, while baptism is to be performed only once.

The rituals however are a shadow pointing to the ultimate fulfillment, the old represents the Holy Spirit and Jesus is the one who 'The Spirit of the Lord is upon" spoken of in Psalm 146

Brotherly love is 'like' the anointing of Aaron running down his beard and Jesus is the ultimate example of love the engine of love for believers
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
@wizanda ,

I'm a little over halfway thru going thru all the occurrences of mem-shin-chet in the Tanakh.

My software found 160 of them. A few of them are erroneous, having the form mem-shin-chet-kuf... which is joking, jesting, and amusement. Those are rare.

Many many times, where mem-shin-chet occur they are talking about anointing. But there's too many occurances that describe destruction to ignore.

It appears that every time mem-shin-chet is tranlated to anoint as opposed to destroy the verse is specific. There is a king, or the anointing oil is mentioned specifically.

If you take a look at Psalms 89. This is a good example.

I also want to point out the verses in Jeremiah. Each and every occurrence of mem-shin-chet ( not mem-shin-chet-kuf ) speaks about destruction.

I'm going to take a break from the research for a bit. But I'll try to have a full write-up on it for you to review by tomorrow evening at the latest.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Isaiah 53 does not actually mention the Messiah.
The 'Messiah' is the 'anointed one' we're discussing in Isaiah 52:13-14...

Where 'my servant' is clearly paraphrasing it being David (Psalms 89:19-21).
In fact, when we look closely at the chapter, it is hard to find anything in it that is applicable to either the (Jewish) Messiah or to Jesus.
We do not build a logical case on people's expectations of the texts, as it is eisegesis; we should establish what the texts means by exegesis.
There seems to be no prophecy there at all.
Depends how we look.

In my opinion. :innocent:
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
@wizanda ,

I'm a little over halfway thru going thru all the occurrences of mem-shin-chet in the Tanakh.

My software found 160 of them. A few of them are erroneous, having the form mem-shin-chet-kuf... which is joking, jesting, and amusement. Those are rare.

Many many times, where mem-shin-chet occur they are talking about anointing. But there's too many occurances that describe destruction to ignore.

It appears that every time mem-shin-chet is tranlated to anoint as opposed to destroy the verse is specific. There is a king, or the anointing oil is mentioned specifically.

If you take a look at Psalms 89. This is a good example.

I also want to point out the verses in Jeremiah. Each and every occurrence of mem-shin-chet ( not mem-shin-chet-kuf ) speaks about destruction.

I'm going to take a break from the research for a bit. But I'll try to have a full write-up on it for you to review by tomorrow evening at the latest.

Psalm 88 and 89 and great examples ending the two books of Psalms that were Levitical in nature. Poetically matching Exodus and Leviticus. It's amazing that those book end pointing to the ultimate sacrifice of the Messiah. The seed of Abraham, The seed of David. Jesus.

Is Psalm 89 About the Death of the Messiah? - My Digital Seminary
 
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sooda

Veteran Member
The 'Messiah' is the 'anointed one' we're discussing in Isaiah 52:13-14...

Where 'my servant' is clearly paraphrasing it being David (Psalms 89:19-21).

We do not build a logical case on people's expectations of the texts, as it is eisegesis; we should establish what the texts means by exegesis.

Depends how we look.

In my opinion. :innocent:

Jesus wasn't anointed.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
The 'Messiah' is the 'anointed one' we're discussing in Isaiah 52:13-14...

Where 'my servant' is clearly paraphrasing it being David (Psalms 89:19-21).

We do not build a logical case on people's expectations of the texts, as it is eisegesis; we should establish what the texts means by exegesis.

Depends how we look.

In my opinion. :innocent:

David was long dead by the time Isaiah came along.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Jesus wasn't anointed.

Actually he was

After Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, his emotional sister Mary poured expensive oil on him anointing his body ( on two separate occasions )

That's nothing compared to God anointing Jesus Himself
as promised

In Psa. 45:6–7, it is written
6 O’ God, Your throne is forever and ever; the scepter of Your kingdom is a scepter of righteousness. 7 You loved righteousness and hated wickedness. Therefore O’ God, Your God anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.

God is the one anointed the figure in Isaiah 61:1 as well
 
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