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Isaiah 53 Suffering Servant

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
The Suffering Servant was Israel.
Each 'servant' is defined by Isaiah specifically, the idea of just making stuff up, and overwriting the text is crazy...

It says my servant Jacob, my servant Israel, etc...

There is clear reason with over 4 items paraphrased in Isaiah 52:13-14, and Psalms 89:19-21 to logically see Isaiah means 'my servant David'; the prophesied Messiah in the Messianic Age is David, and then people have the audacity to make it up.
so I'll stay with "Israel."

3And he said to me, "You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified." (Isa. 49:3)
This is totally different contextually to Isaiah 52:14's servant, which is defined elsewhere; the idea of just making it up, and following blinded Rabbinic Judaism's ideas (Zechariah 12:4, Deuteronomy 28:28-29), will lead people to Hell.

Matthew 15:14 Leave them alone. They are blind guides of the blind. If the blind guide the blind, both will fall into a pit. (Hell)”
Are any of your translatorson RF Hebrew scholars ?
'Just as there were many who were astonished at him - so I (God) have anointed his appearance, unlike human semblance, and his form unlike any mortal.' - Martin Hengel

Martin Hengel is a Hebrew scholar, with some of the people on this forum being knowledgeable as well.

In my opinion. :innocent:
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Each 'servant' is defined by Isaiah specifically, the idea of just making stuff up, and overwriting the text is crazy...

It says my servant Jacob, my servant Israel, etc...

There is clear reason with over 4 items paraphrased in Isaiah 52:13-14, and Psalms 89:19-21 to logically see Isaiah means 'my servant David'; the prophesied Messiah in the Messianic Age is David, and then people have the audacity to make it up.

This is totally different contextually to Isaiah 52:14's servant, which is defined elsewhere; the idea of just making it up, and following blinded Rabbinic Judaism's ideas (Zechariah 12:4, Deuteronomy 28:28-29), will lead people to Hell.

Matthew 15:14 Leave them alone. They are blind guides of the blind. If the blind guide the blind, both will fall into a pit. (Hell)”

'Just as there were many who were astonished at him - so I (God) have anointed his appearance, unlike human semblance, and his form unlike any mortal.' - Martin Hengel

Martin Hengel is a Hebrew scholar, with some of the people on this forum being knowledgeable as well.

In my opinion. :innocent:

Zechariah 12:1-3 as having a literal fulfillment in AD 70 as a consequence of the Jews rejection of Jesus Christ.

An oracle of the word of the Lord on Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out heaven, lays the foundation of earth, and forms a spirit of a human being in it: Lo, I am making Jerusalem like a shaken threshold for all the peoples round about and in Judah; there will be a siege against Jerusalem. On that day I shall make Jerusalem a stone trodden on by all the nations; everyone who treads on it will mockingly mock it, and all the nations of the earth will gather against it (Zechariah 12:1-3). The prophet Zechariah prophesies the fate of Judah and Jerusalem and its inhabitants after the crucifixion of Jesus, receiving his message from the creator of everything….


https://www.preteristarchive.com/2017_rogers_didymus-the-blind-of-alexandria-on-zechariah-12/
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Zechariah 12:1-3 as having a literal fulfillment in AD 70 as a consequence of the Jews rejection of Jesus Christ.
Zechariah 11 states the flock is slaughtered when the leaders pay 30 pieces of silver, the end of Zechariah 11:15-17 is referring to foolish shepherds being over the flock since the diaspora, until the Messianic Age in Ezekiel 34, where the foolish leaders are then removed.

Zechariah 12 is the coming Battle of Armageddon with Israel in the middle of it, and then God steps in with Holy Fire to cleanse reality.

In my opinion. :innocent:
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I believe people use the word "clearly" when they can't prove their point. The text does not talk about Israel as the suffering servant. That is a lie perpetrated by the Jews who do not wish to acknowledge God as their Savior.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
No argument from me. Christianity is full of myths based on imagined meanings and significances wished on passages from the Tanakh. The gospels devise the entire biography of Jesus in just such a way.

Other examples are "the fall of Man", nowhere mentioned in the Garden story (Genesis 2-3, and made theologically impossible by Ezekiel 18 eg 18:20), and the "fall of Lucifer" (Isaiah 14:4) which explicitly states that it's a taunt against the "king of Babylon", not a yarn about a demon.

And any list of 'prophecies of Jesus' in the Tanakh is fiction of this kind, from go to whoa.

I believe you might have a point with the fall of man although one can admit to the fall of the Adamic Race called human by the aliens who recreated it.

However other things may seem contrived there is enough evidence to support most of them
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I agree .. It evidently wasn't enough that Jesus was a holy man, they had to manipulate the scriptures and gild the lily. IMO, its a real shame. I'd prefer the truth.

I believe that is a deception on your part. There is no evidence of gilding the lily. There is evidence that people fantasize about gilding the lily.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
/
I believe that is a deception on your part. There is no evidence of gilding the lily. There is evidence that people fantasize about gilding the lily.


Called Servant / Israel & chosen by God

Isa 42:1 “Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight

Isa 49:3 He said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will display my splendor.”

Called Servant / Israel / Jacob and chosen by God

Isa 41:8-9 “But you, O Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend

Isa 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen.

Isa 42:18-19 Hear, you deaf; look, you blind, and see! Who is blind but my servant, and deaf like the messenger I send?

Bible Study The Messiah in Isaiah - the Suffering Servant
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
@sooda

I can read Hebrew. But I am just a baby compared to Rosends and Tumah...

I am going to review the thread in Wizanda's post. All of this is facinating.

Here's where I'm at right now...

Wizanda has done a good job identifying verse 52:14 in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

And if you look at the words immediately before and the word in the red box it's clear... there is a yud at the end of the word that is not included in the conventional text.

I'm working on finding it myself in the Dead Sea Scrolls just so to verify it for myself... When I do, I'll post pictures illustrating what I'm talking about. What you will see are 3 consistent yuds

http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/isaiah

One thing, to point out... who were the scribes of the Dead Sea Scrolls? Weren't they the Essenes? I think they were fringe and messianic. Nothing wrong with it.. but it would explain why the text in their scroll would reflect their belief in a messiah.

My gut reaction to the word "annointed" instead of "marred" in 52:14 is that it doesn't fit the context. I mentioned it earlier, maybe you missed it, maybe @wizanda missed it.

But, the act of anointing with oil doesn't change the external form...

marred with leporasy?... yes, changes the form.
marred with idolatry? yes, changes the form
marred by division: ( King Solomon's situation, the temple destroyed, the nation split )? yes, changes the form

all of those examples fit the translation of the word to "marred" and not "anointed".

But... wizanda is right, the word "mashachas" is translated to "anointed" in psalms 89. And Mem-Shin-Chet ( aka Mashach ) translates to "anointed" quite often in the Tanakh.

So, I'm going to do my own research looking for any other occurances in the Tanakh of the word Mem-Shin-Chet and its derivations.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
@sooda

I can read Hebrew. But I am just a baby compared to Rosends and Tumah...

I am going to review the thread in Wizanda's post. All of this is facinating.

Here's where I'm at right now...

Wizanda has done a good job identifying verse 52:14 in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

And if you look at the words immediately before and the word in the red box it's clear... there is a yud at the end of the word that is not included in the conventional text.

I'm working on finding it myself in the Dead Sea Scrolls just so to verify it for myself... When I do, I'll post pictured illustrating what I'm talking about. What you will see is 3 consistent yuds

http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/isaiah

One thing, to point out... who were the scribes of the Dead Sea Scrolls? Weren't they the Essenes? I think they were fringe and messianic. Nothing wrong with it.. but it would explain why the text in their scroll would reflect their belief in a messiah.

My gut reaction to the word "annointed" instead of "marred" in 52:14 is that it doesn't fit the context. I mentioned it earlier, maybe you missed it, maybe @wizanda missed it.

But, the act of anointing with oil doesn't change the external form...

marred with leporasy?... yes, changes the form.
marred with idolatry? yes, changes the form
marred by division: ( King Solomon's situation, the temple destroyed, the nation split )? yes, changes the form

all of those examples fit the translation of the word to "marred" and not "anointed".

But... wizanda is right, the word "mashachas" is translated to "anointed" in psalms 89. And Mem-Shin-Chet ( aka Mashach ) translates to "anointed" quite often in the Tanakh.

So, I'm going to do my own research looking for any other occurances in the Tanakh of the word Mem-Shin-Chet and its derivations.

Good.. Any king would have had to be anointed, but not all were disfigured by leprosy.

Isaiah's Suffering Servant - usbible.com
Isaiah's Suffering Servant
The Suffering Servant was Israel. The passage equates Israel with a former contemporary of Isaiah, King Uzziah, who was disfigured, suffered and died of leprosy. From there he believed Israel would one day redeem itself and become a leader among nations. It was a failed prophecy.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
See, my servant will act wisely; he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted. Just as there were many who were appalled at him--his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man and his form marred beyond human likeness--so will he sprinkle many nations, and kings will shut their mouths because of him. (Isaiah 52:13-15)
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
@wizanda ,

I'm looking at the Dead Sea Scrolls via the link below...

http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/isaiah

I'm trying to find verse 54:12... It should be easy to find based on the line from your picture in the purple box shown below... I can't find it, but I'm going to keep looking...

Selection_079.png
 

sooda

Veteran Member
I believe people use the word "clearly" when they can't prove their point. The text does not talk about Israel as the suffering servant. That is a lie perpetrated by the Jews who do not wish to acknowledge God as their Savior.


there are many problems with taking Isa 53 in such a way, among which are the following.

(1) According to Isa 53:3 in the Tanakh, the suffering servant was "despised [and] shunned by men". It seems doubtful that that is fulfilled by Jesus just in virtue of the fact that his own people did not accept him, for he apparently was widely accepted by the common people elsewhere. According to Lu 4:15, he taught in the synagogue and everyone praised him. And later, huge crowds supposedly followed him, and he was described as making a "Triumphal Entry" into Jerusalem (Mt 21:8-11; John 12:12-13,17-19).

(2) Verse 3 in the Tanakh also declares that the suffering servant was "familiar with disease", and verse 4 says that he was "stricken by God", where the Hebrew word for "stricken" is one that is used in the Hebrew Scriptures to stand only for leprosy (as at Le 13:3,9,20 and 2Ki 15:5). But Jesus is not known to have suffered from leprosy or any other disease, so those verses are not applicable to him. It may even be part of some forms of Christian doctrine that Jesus needed to be perfectly healthy in order to adequately play the role of "sacrificial lamb" (which by law needed to be "without blemish"). It is clear that the suffering servant of Isa 53 could not adequately play such a role.

(3) As for Jesus being silent before his accusers (thereby satisfying verse 7), that seems not to work either. Verse 7 says (twice): "He did not open his mouth." But according to John 18:33-37, 19:11, Jesus said much to Pontius Pilate. In each of the four gospels Jesus opened his mouth and said something before his accusers. Hence, Jesus did not actually fulfill that part of the prophecy.

(4) In verse 9 it says of the suffering servant "his grave was set among the wicked, and with the rich, in his death." It is unclear how that applies to Jesus, for there were no other bodies in the tomb in which Jesus' body was placed. The verse definitely does not say that the servant would have a grave provided for him by a rich man, so that part of the alleged prophecy is sheer invention.

(5) According to verse 10, "the Lord chose to crush him by disease, that if he made himself an offering for guilt, he might see offspring and have long life, ..." That seems totally inapplicable to Jesus, for Jesus was not crushed by disease, nor did he see any offspring, nor did he have a long life.

(6) Isaiah 53 does not actually mention the Messiah. In fact, when we look closely at the chapter, it is hard to find anything in it that is applicable to either the (Jewish) Messiah or to Jesus. Verse 1 does not actually say that the servant's message would not be believed, but merely asks, "Who can believe what we have heard?" There seems to be no prophecy there at all. Nor is there any indication that the servant would be arrested as a criminal or scourged or crucified with criminals or make intercession for his persecutors. None of that is in there. Verse 6 does say, "the Lord visited upon him the guilt of us all," but there are other interpretations of that than the Christian one.

(7) There is a Judaic interpretation of Isa 53 that seems plausible. The suffering servant is the nation of Israel which is represented by King Uzziah, who was its king in Isaiah's time and who died of leprosy. According to Shmuel Golding, Isaiah's message may have been: "Here is your leprous king, who is in type suffering under God's hand for you the backslidden servant nation of Israel" (which explains verse 6). Uzziah was taken away from the royal palace because of his affliction as a leper and spent his remaining years in isolation, which fits verse 8. Golding says the following:

Israel is portrayed as a suffering servant on account of its anointed leader being stricken with leprosy. Israel, like the leper, is a suffering servant of God. Both have suffered humiliation at the hand of their fellowmen: the leper because of his unsightly appearance; Israel through its defeat at the hands of the Babylonians. The gist of the message is that Israel like the leper has suffered, but nevertheless will retain its identity in the form of the exiled Jewish people and that they will prosper in this form. [5]

The Argument from the Bible
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
The Arm of the Lord, like the Salvation of the Lord is God interacting with mankind; the Messiah by definition is God's interaction with mankind.

Psalms 89:20-21 I have found David, my servant. I have anointed him with my holy oil, (21) with whom my hand shall be established. My arm will also strengthen him.

Isaiah 40:10-11 Behold, the Lord Yahweh will come as a mighty one, and his arm will rule for him. Behold, his reward is with him, and his recompense before him. (11) He will feed his flock like a shepherd. He will gather the lambs in his arm, and carry them in his bosom. He will gently lead those who have their young.


Isaiah 51:5 My righteousness is near. My salvation has gone out, and my arms will judge the peoples. The islands will wait for me, and they will trust my arm.

The word shouldn't be blemished in Isaiah 52:14, it is anointed; with the additional yod in the Dead Sea Scrolls it is even clearer, it is mistranslated.

It is to catch out the hypocrites who like 'the Passion of Christ'; so Isaiah 53:1 Rumor interlinks the Arm of the Lord revealed in Isaiah 28:9-21, Rumor to Rumor in the Bed of Adultery.

A Christian accepts John, Paul, and Simon who tell them to interpret Isaiah 53, like it is a free gift, and it isn't, as it has tons of additional contexts most overlook.

Basically the whole thing is to make a Snare (Isaiah 8) to catch out 'those who are quick to the spoils, and who hasten to the prey'; it shall remove all the Ravenous beings in a single day.

In my opinion. :innocent:



I do not see anywhere where 'the arm of the Lord' would refer to his people and in fact
they pray for God's arms to be theirs because of their dependency in Isaiah 33:2
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
there are many problems with taking Isa 53 in such a way, among which are the following.

(1) According to Isa 53:3 in the Tanakh, the suffering servant was "despised [and] shunned by men". It seems doubtful that that is fulfilled by Jesus just in virtue of the fact that his own people did not accept him, for he apparently was widely accepted by the common people elsewhere. According to Lu 4:15, he taught in the synagogue and everyone praised him. And later, huge crowds supposedly followed him, and he was described as making a "Triumphal Entry" into Jerusalem (Mt 21:8-11; John 12:12-13,17-19).

(2) Verse 3 in the Tanakh also declares that the suffering servant was "familiar with disease", and verse 4 says that he was "stricken by God", where the Hebrew word for "stricken" is one that is used in the Hebrew Scriptures to stand only for leprosy (as at Le 13:3,9,20 and 2Ki 15:5). But Jesus is not known to have suffered from leprosy or any other disease, so those verses are not applicable to him. It may even be part of some forms of Christian doctrine that Jesus needed to be perfectly healthy in order to adequately play the role of "sacrificial lamb" (which by law needed to be "without blemish"). It is clear that the suffering servant of Isa 53 could not adequately play such a role.

(3) As for Jesus being silent before his accusers (thereby satisfying verse 7), that seems not to work either. Verse 7 says (twice): "He did not open his mouth." But according to John 18:33-37, 19:11, Jesus said much to Pontius Pilate. In each of the four gospels Jesus opened his mouth and said something before his accusers. Hence, Jesus did not actually fulfill that part of the prophecy.

(4) In verse 9 it says of the suffering servant "his grave was set among the wicked, and with the rich, in his death." It is unclear how that applies to Jesus, for there were no other bodies in the tomb in which Jesus' body was placed. The verse definitely does not say that the servant would have a grave provided for him by a rich man, so that part of the alleged prophecy is sheer invention.

(5) According to verse 10, "the Lord chose to crush him by disease, that if he made himself an offering for guilt, he might see offspring and have long life, ..." That seems totally inapplicable to Jesus, for Jesus was not crushed by disease, nor did he see any offspring, nor did he have a long life.

(6) Isaiah 53 does not actually mention the Messiah. In fact, when we look closely at the chapter, it is hard to find anything in it that is applicable to either the (Jewish) Messiah or to Jesus. Verse 1 does not actually say that the servant's message would not be believed, but merely asks, "Who can believe what we have heard?" There seems to be no prophecy there at all. Nor is there any indication that the servant would be arrested as a criminal or scourged or crucified with criminals or make intercession for his persecutors. None of that is in there. Verse 6 does say, "the Lord visited upon him the guilt of us all," but there are other interpretations of that than the Christian one.

(7) There is a Judaic interpretation of Isa 53 that seems plausible. The suffering servant is the nation of Israel which is represented by King Uzziah, who was its king in Isaiah's time and who died of leprosy. According to Shmuel Golding, Isaiah's message may have been: "Here is your leprous king, who is in type suffering under God's hand for you the backslidden servant nation of Israel" (which explains verse 6). Uzziah was taken away from the royal palace because of his affliction as a leper and spent his remaining years in isolation, which fits verse 8. Golding says the following:

Israel is portrayed as a suffering servant on account of its anointed leader being stricken with leprosy. Israel, like the leper, is a suffering servant of God. Both have suffered humiliation at the hand of their fellowmen: the leper because of his unsightly appearance; Israel through its defeat at the hands of the Babylonians. The gist of the message is that Israel like the leper has suffered, but nevertheless will retain its identity in the form of the exiled Jewish people and that they will prosper in this form. [5]

The Argument from the Bible

In the big picture Isiah is echoing the song of Moses, Deuteronomy 32:1 where they both start 'listen oh heaven's and hear oh earth for the Lord speaks' and speak of the sins of God's people even both going so far as to say they are more like Sodom and Gomorra than they might think... or we all as well.... the issue from the start is sin and the need for salvation

and Zechariah will link these with 'they will look on Me [in context God] who they have pierced and a cry will go up..:

Isaiah makes the issue sin and redemption from the first chapter saying 'come let us reason together. Tho your sins are as scarlet (tola) they will be as white as snow'

and that word for scarlet? is the same as a worm (a tola) which dies in a tree and crushed for a red die used in the temple and used in the sufferings depicted in Psalm 22 "I am worm (tola) and not a man" and :my God my God why have you forsaken me" cried/quoted by Jesus on the cross but the Psalm by title is also 'for the hind of the morning' the time it's darkest before a spectacular sunrise and like Isaiah 53 in the Psalm 22 the sufferer will see his offspring with some overcoming of death and benefit to believers

It is about Jesus
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
My gut reaction to the word "annointed" instead of "marred" in 52:14 is that it doesn't fit the context.
Psalms 89:19-21 Then you spoke in vision to your saints, and said, “I have given strength to the warrior. I have exalted a young man from the people. (20) I have found David, my servant. I have anointed him with my holy oil, (21) with whom my hand shall be established. My arm (Isaiah 52:10-Isaiah 53:1) will also strengthen him.

Isaiah 52:13-14 Behold, my servant will deal wisely. He will be exalted and lifted up, and will be very high. Just as many were astonished by him, for I anointed him more than others appearance, and his form more than a son of man.
Re-translate it, this is our own translation, where it then doesn't say 'marred'.

In my opinion. :innocent:
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
I do not see anywhere where 'the arm of the Lord' would refer to his people
Bible word search H2220 - Arm, there are multiple instances in the Tanakh that talks of God doing things for his people; the Arm is God's interaction.

In my opinion. :innocent:
 
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