Peace & Security or Sudden Destruction?

Shadow Wolf · Apr 9, 2019

nPeace said:
You seem to be enjoying that dream very much, so I 'll quit encouraging you to awake.

I'm very awake. However I'm not afraid. Things aren't perfect and there is still war and violence. But it's went down even from even 20 years ago, and it's been on a consistent downward trend. It's still an issue, but at the same time we have much significant progress. Some entire countries even have very few murders and robberies (Japan has only 1 of each per 100,000 people, with not even 1.5 million crimes reported in 2012, and it went down in 2013).

2ndpillar · Apr 10, 2019

sooda said:
Julius Caesar was long dead before the Jewish wars.

Nero was the emperor of persecution .. When he died people were afraid he would be reincarnated and return from across the Euphrates River with an army of Parthians .... He died in 68 AD.

On January 10, 49 BCE, Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon, signaling the start of civil war between his forces and those of the Roman who defiled the Holy of Holies. Pompey was a talented, ruthless general for Rome. He was the first Roman leader to understand that Rome could not successfully control the Middle East if it did not control Judea.

Julius Caesar was a coleader of the Triumvirate which included Pompey. Pompey destroyed Jerusalem while Julius Caesar was quite alive and part of the Triumvirate. Nero was emperor because Caesar had crossed the Rubicon, and created a dictatorship, which usurped the Roman Republic. As for persecution of Jews, Titus and his father apparently had 1 million Jews killed during their watch, some killed as gladiators, and some killed when thrown to the lions, etc.. Nero didn't play the fiddle while Rome burned. The fiddle was not invented. Nero organized the fighting of the fire, and oversaw the rebuilding of Rome with fire resistant building codes. There was a political conflict between Nero and Herod, which probably led to the death of the Herod related Paul. As for the fire, it was probably started when one of O'Leary's cows kicked over a lamp. No one worshipped Nero (Revelation 13:4), bar the fact that he was an Augustus Caesar, by way of Julius Caesar, who had been declared a god by the Roman Senate. It was actually Julius Caesar who was slain, and healed as Augustus Caesar. Your Nero committed suicide, and has had no residual affect.

2ndpillar · Apr 10, 2019

Shadow Wolf said:
Name one other time in history where Europe has gone this long without any major internal wars/conflicts.
Instead of a 100 Year War, they've almost had 100 years of peace.

Let me see, 2019 minus 1944 Second World War, kind of looks more like 75 years of smaller wars, and continual conflicts such as the Cold War, and political and economic strive.

sooda · Apr 10, 2019

2ndpillar said:
Julius Caesar was a coleader of the Triumvirate which included Pompey. Pompey destroyed Jerusalem while Julius Caesar was quite alive and part of the Triumvirate. Nero was emperor because Caesar had crossed the Rubicon, and created a dictatorship, which usurped the Roman Republic. As for persecution of Jews, Titus and his father apparently had 1 million Jews killed during their watch, some killed as gladiators, and some killed when thrown to the lions, etc.. Nero didn't play the fiddle while Rome burned. The fiddle was not invented. Nero organized the fighting of the fire, and oversaw the rebuilding of Rome with fire resistant building codes. There was a political conflict between Nero and Herod, which probably led to the death of the Herod related Paul. As for the fire, it was probably started when one of O'Leary's cows kicked over a lamp. No one worshipped Nero (Revelation 13:4), bar the fact that he was an Augustus Caesar, by way of Julius Caesar, who had been declared a god by the Roman Senate. It was actually Julius Caesar who was slain, and healed as Augustus Caesar. Your Nero committed suicide, and has had no residual affect.

Julius Caesar died in 44 AD.

Julius Caesar conquered Alexandria c. 47 BC and defeated Pompey in 45 BC

The Siege of Jerusalem (63 BC) occurred during Pompey the Great's campaigns in the east, shortly after his successful conclusion of the Third Mithridatic War.

Pompey had been asked to intervene in a dispute over inheritance to the throne which turned into a war between Hyrcanus II and Aristobulus II for the throne of the Hasmonean Kingdom.

His conquest of Jerusalem, however, spelled the end of Jewish independence and the incorporation of Judea as a client kingdom of the Roman Republic.

Shadow Wolf · Apr 10, 2019

2ndpillar said:
Let me see, 2019 minus 1944 Second World War, kind of looks more like 75 years of smaller wars, and continual conflicts such as the Cold War, and political and economic strive.

Exactly. 75 years without any major internal conflicts/wars. My whole point has been that while there is still violence, it's gotten significantly better. It's to the point that many countries, including Germany, are enjoying their longest period of border stability.

Oeste · Apr 11, 2019

nPeace said:
As far as I know, there is a difference between claiming to prophecy, and claiming that events prophesied are likely to take place at an expected time.

If I’m not mistaken the WT has done both. I’ve already presented the article “The Nations Shall Know a Prophet was among them”, something the WT prophesied about itself which simply never came true.

And why didn’t it come true? Because the events prophesied, which we were told would take place at an “expected” time didn’t come true. That’s the problem with false prophets. There “expectations” simply don’t come true.

nPeace said:
There is also a difference between claiming that one is God inspired, and one is God guided.

It doesn’t matter whether Witnesses believe God “inspired” or “guided” the Governing Board into false prophesies because false prophesy is still a sin.

What part of Ezekiel 13:6-8 does your Organization not get? There is no reasonable scriptural basis on which to justify false prophesy nPeace. It's like adultery. Apologize, make recompense to the extent you are able, repent and move on.

nPeace said:
As I said before... how many times now...? The brothers have had expectations based on mistakes in the past, but this does not - never has - disqualified anyone from being guided by God, when they seek to obey God's commands and follow Christ's example, as outlined in scripture.

Great! Then I’m sure they have admitted their mistakes, apologized, and repented. Unfortunately, unless they do this they are just as disqualified as the prophets during Ezekial’s time.

nPeace said:
As They have acknowledged, and admitted their mistakes.

Have they apologized? Have they repented? Has your Organization claimed amnesty and respite, welcoming back anyone adversely affected or excommunicated by reason of a false prophesy, or are your judicial committees simply waiting for them to apologize for getting sick?

nPeace said:
They don't need to kneel before any man and plead mercy. So don't wait for that Oeste.

I think you are making a flair for the dramatic.

Is kneeling before men, pleading for mercy how you view an apology and repentance? Such a view would certainly give insight into the Witness mindset, especially with how your judicial committees might view the repentant.

nPeace said:
The brothers of the GB never prophesied anything. The Bible writers did.
Check one. Done.

Fantasize all the check marks you want, but you’ll never see 1914, 1925, or any WT inspired date fall from a bible. The New Testament writers didn’t prophesize any of that nonsense. The Watchtower did.

Check one. Done.

nPeace said:
There is nothing more to say on that.

If the Watchtower apologizes and repents then no, “there is nothing more to say”. But until they do they remain in their sin. That’s been the whole point of my posts.

nPeace said:
You can carry one your sermon though... if you like. Perhaps it's the only missionary service you are able to carry out.

Then Peter said, "Silver or gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you”. (Acts 3:6)

nPeace said:
As far as I know, it's not the will of God, I see mentioned by Jesus. Matthew 7:21-23

The GB on the other hand will continue to busy themselves with the mission that Jesus is concerned with. Matthew 24:14; 28:18-20

And this “mission” was to conflate their own words with scripture at the (a) guidance or (b) inspiration of Jehovah (take your pick), add a few jots and tittles then go door to door with false prophesies disguised as Jehovah’s “truth” worldwide? It’s unfortunate they’re so busy with Matthew 24:14; 28:18-20 that they feel they have no time to repent.

nPeace said:
There is no need or reason for the GB to hold back from speaking what is apparently evident. What religious organization on earth - unified in teaching (1 Corinthians 1:10) - carries the message of the Good news of God's Kingdom to all the nations, to every village, town, and city?

There are plenty of religious organization “unified in teachings”. That’s what makes a denomination a denomination nPeace. I just don’t see the point in mixing Fake news with Good news. They should have stuck with the biblical message rather than add their own.

Also it appears Witnesses talk about going “door to door” as often as the Pharisees talked of tithing all they get. Either boast sounds the same to my ear, but I never had a Witness sit down and explain the difference in theirs.

Perhaps the Pharisee's claim was "too idle" while the Witness claim is "spot on"?

Oeste · Apr 11, 2019

nPeace said:
I put this to you before, but you don't seem interested in that. So I am giving you another opportunity. You tell me. I want to hear from you.

I think you want to compare religions out of an imagined sense of religious superiority or supremacy. If so you are right…I have no interest in that, but I’ve already addressed it. If you think Witnesses are more holy than other Christians, then they can take their rightful spot of veneration with the Pharisee…who also felt holier than other Jews.

If not, then work toward applying the same standards to everyone in your Organization. We all sin, so we all need to repent.

nPeace said:
I am listening.

You say this but I’m not sure you really are. This whole matter, which understandably puts you in a very awkward position, is entirely unnecessary because it’s so blatantly unscriptural. If the GB apologizes and repents, if members stop making excuses for them, if you hold them accountable to the same high standards you hold the least in your Organization then no one, (including me) would have anything to say.

Our sins are covered by Christ but not for those too proud to repent.

nPeace said:
Witnesses take their message door to door
The small group of people gathered in the Kingdom Hall meeting room listened as Myles Burcham told a joke he first heard on “The Tonight Show.”

“The problem with the CIA finding Osama Bin Laden is that they should have turned to the Jehovah’s Witnesses. They would have found him,” Burcham said.

Burcham and his fellow Jehovah’s Witnesses chuckled. They said they have heard many similar jests, seemingly created at their expense.

But Burcham said their persistent door-to-door witnessing is really no laughing matter.
Jehovah’s Witnesses Find Osama Bin Laden

Excellent @nPeace, I enjoyed that!!

But if you had actually found Bin Laden, what then? If I go door to door telling everyone the secret password to the Kingdom is “Blue” when the real password is ”Red” of what value is my message? There’s an old saying nPeace, written by a Reformed Baptist minister:

Virtually anyone can tell us what Jehovah Witnesses said about 1975, but what can the average Joe tell us regarding your views on the Kingdom of God? Virtually nothing, and even after decades of “door to door” work it remains an unfortunate “truth” of the Watchtower ministry.

Kelly of the Phoenix · Apr 11, 2019

12jtartar said:
Many people, like you, for instance, remain babes, because they fight everything, because they do not really want to understand, because that would limit their immoral or illegal actions.

I would argue the entire selling point of Christianity is "throw Jesus under the bus and escape the consequences of your actions".

12jtartar said:
They want to do what they want to do, when that want to, and do not want, even The God Almighty to tell them what to do, even though the things that God tells mankind is for their own good, Deuteronomy 10:13, Psalm 32:6-10, Isaiah 48:17-19.

Everyone who seeks answers from the bible instead of God is doing that very thing.

2ndpillar said:
As for babes, none get it but babes (Matthew 11:25), and the "wise and intelligent" are left in the cold.

And yet babes die in the snow all the time 'cause they aren't experienced enough to know not to do that.

2ndpillar said:
Apparently, anyone not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will be a victim of being "deceived" (Revelation 13:8 & 14). Those considering themselves "wise and intelligent" seem to fall the hardest.

That's why many "true believers" might have a wake-up call come their first heavenly inservice. The wise and intelligent have the humility to know there is more to learn, while those who choose to believe they already have all the answers are filled with hubris.

I've watched enough Twilight Zone to know not to go toward the light, Carol Ann -- it's a trap! All those fluffy clouds and constant 24/7 singing is to manipulate the vain and shallow people. The smart ones choose the scary place with the metal rock decorations, because that's where they are truly valued as people, not as dolls for God's shelf.

I mean, God made it abundantly clear He doesn't want company when He bragged about how hard it was to get in Heaven. Why stress Him out when He's clearly not a people person?

Oeste said:
Agreed! This tells us that being a Jew saved nobody, but following God did. It is no different today.

Which is why Qui-Gon Jinn was wiser than Yoda. The one who listens to the Force alone will be better off than the one who slides into political power.

nPeace said:
There was a time when being a cop was not looked upon as being worst than being in the army, and people had a measure of fear and respect for law-enforcement.

We also hopefully didn't have cops doing White Power signs in their photos, but I'm only 41 and missed the 50s and 60s, so I don't really know about that. I mean, we shouldn't respect cops just because they're cops. They have to be not terrorists, too.

nPeace said:
Many people do not feel safe, and the level of crime has risen in many parts of the world.

And what populations are doing these crimes?

nPeace said:
Posting a bunch of links won't help you open your window any wider, but I am a guy that likes to see the data. It presents an open window to reality.

And what populations are doing these crimes? Isn't usually by the same people who think they are better than everyone else because "God"?

I'm not statistically significant by any means, but in my 41 years of life, only the "good guys" have ever harassed me or threatened me or hurt me. The "bad guys" are usually the first to help.

nPeace said:
They don't need to kneel before any man and plead mercy. So don't wait for that Oeste.

Why not? Their "mistakes" don't hurt God at all, while they can certainly hurt actual people.

nPeace said:
What religious organization on earth - unified in teaching (1 Corinthians 1:10) - carries the message of the Good news of God's Kingdom to all the nations, to every village, town, and city?

Is it just the commercials exist or do the commercials have to be effective and advertising the right things?

nPeace said:
“The problem with the CIA finding Osama Bin Laden is that they should have turned to the Jehovah’s Witnesses. They would have found him,” Burcham said.

Okay, THAT made me laugh inside.

nPeace said:
But Burcham said their persistent door-to-door witnessing is really no laughing matter.

And like I tell all unsolicited solicitors: I will buy it if I want it, or I'll do it myself. I don't need you. Please stop selling me stuff.

savagewind said:
But, we know that the only safe place to be anytime is with Jesus.

I would argue it's with the One who outranks him, though. Bonus: since God's supposedly omnipresent, unless He's lying about that, we are always safe because it's literally impossible to be separated from an omnipresent being.

savagewind said:
Are you able to "walk in another's person's shoes" @nPeace ?

After all that walking door to door, they're probably too tired to walk in others' shoes. At least theirs are broken in and comfy.

nPeace said:
Do you think the current understanding is flawed? If so, would you like to present scripture to show why it is flawed?

If "in Christ, there is neither male nor female," then EVERY gender-based rule should be thrown out, as gender is irrelevant. I mean, it's one of the only moral things Paul ever says. Even a stopped sundial is right sometimes.

nPeace said:
The apostle Paul gave his opinion on occasion, and said he felt he had the Lord's backing, and he based it on God's word.

Was it the Lord's backing as he helped stone people to death, or after? Both?

nPeace said:
For example, the scriptures clearly condemn homosexuality, so what scriptural reasons can one give, for uniting homosexuals in marriage?

Paul's statement that all are equal in Christ makes inequality stupid. God's not exactly the expert in terms of human sexuality. He'd been making males and females for days and when it comes to the first human, He doesn't automatically get the guy a female. Poor kid has to cycle through every other species first before it occurs to the Omniscient One that maybe it would help for the lover to be the same species.

nPeace said:
God's word is the truth.

The problem is that the bible isn't.

nPeace said:
Jesus said, "If you remain in my word, you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

That's why I ask God for His opinions. The bible is an okay read but it's not my deity of choice.

nPeace said:
until we all attain to the oneness of the faith and of the accurate knowledge of the Son of God, to being a full-grown man, attaining the measure of stature that belongs to the fullness of the Christ.

Archaeology and history show us different pictures than what the bible leads us to believe.

nPeace said:
Evidently, if the footstep followers of Jesus - the ones who actually saw him eye-to-eye, and touched his garments, and flesh, had started writing down what they understood the Lord meant, they would have had to rewrite their scrolls several times, and even after they died, someone would have had to later rewrite what they wrote.

True, but any passage where Jesus is alone tells me the authors are full of it, because no one was there.

nPeace said:
Thoughts and pictures come to my mind, . . . thoughts from before the year 1914 when there was real peace, quiet and security on this earth - a time when we didn’t know fear. . . . Security and quiet have disappeared from the lives of men since 1914.
Konrad Adenauer, Cleveland West Parker, January 20, 1966, p. 1

I love just how incredibly wrong this statement is. The sheer enormity of the level of BS is impressive.

Oeste · Apr 11, 2019

nPeace said:
What's not true? This?

No, 12Tartar's statement that the WT never changed its policies regarding unnatural sex:

12jtartar said:
Oeste,

I read your post, and I can find no reason for your statements, because the teaching about unnatural sex has always been the same.

Let's look at the quote again:

Oeste said:
"While both homosexuality and bestiality are disgusting perversions, in the case of neither one is the marriage tie broken.” Watchtower 1972 Jan 1 p.32.

12Tartar’s statement is simply not true. Why? Because I quoted the WT article stating if your husband took a sheep to the hay, or if he was caught with another man in bed, the wife could not divorce him. In other words, if you were a woman you could have all the sex you wanted with another woman, if a man, all the sex you wanted with another man, and either could have all the sex you wanted with a beast and your spouse could not divorce you and remain in good standing with the congregation. The spouse who went through with a divorce was shunned. Obviously the view of those having "unnatural sex" has changed since they it not only can lead to loss of fellowship but divorce.

So there was a change in your policy concerning "unnatural sex". And please, let me no one say this was a change in your marriage doctrine and not the doctrine regarding unnatural sex, because "unnatural sex" was never considered part of your marriage doctrine.

nPeace said:
However, the brothers understanding needed adjusting,

Agreed, but this also means it changed.

nPeace said:
and the admirable thing about it, in my opinion, is that they adjusted their thinking, and did so as they usually do, by reasoning on the scriptures, and trying to apply them in the light of better understanding of them.

I think the “admirable” thing would have been to invite them back and apologize to everyone who was excommunicated simply because they had chosen to follow their God given conscience and the bible rather than the doctrines of men, aka the Governing Board. Ditto for any spouse who suffered and was expected to perform after their husband or wife had relations with a dog, sheep or goat or another same sex member. As for the GB’s “reasoning” they were certainly late to the party compared to other religions, but I'm glad they did come to reason.

Anyone not coming back should have been sent a letter of open invitation, signed by an elder in the congregation.

nPeace said:
I would say that if anyone objects to the current understanding, then they should present a reasonable scriptural argument, as to why the current understanding is wrong.

We were talking about whether the doctrine regarding “unnatural” sex changed - it did.

nPeace said:
Do you think the current understanding is flawed?

Who knows what the Organization’s "current understanding" is when all it takes is a "adjustment" on your website for a "past understanding" to change?

The important point to remember is that another policy changed which had adversely affected Witnesses without any apology, recompense or sign of repentance from the Governing Board.

It’s was no different from when the elders got involved in your bedrooms nPeace. The GB had the elders referee what was okay and not okay in the marriage bed to the consternation and embarrassment of your members. No apology for that either.

nPeace said:
You see, the thing about humility, is that one is not afraid to admit they are wrong.

That’s true for those with humility, but the WT never admits that it is “wrong”. In fact, you can’t come out and say the Watchtower is or was “wrong” about anything and expect to remain in good standing. Instead, members who wish to avoid being “marked” have found it is far safer to refer to any wrong-headed WT doctrines as “former truths”.

nPeace said:
The difference between the GB, and the Bible writers, is that while the Bible writers claimed to be inspired of God, the GB does not.

Let me ask you a question: Does the GB claim to be anointed or not, and if so, by whom? Is it by the Spirit that will guide the Congregation into "all truth"? (John 16:13) If your current leadership didn't end up in truth, then obviously they were guided by the wrong spirit, or they are not anointed.

I get truth when I read my bible, and it’s chock full of fallible humans, all who manged to get "the truth" out without little asterisks stating *subject to adjustment later*. Why is it so difficult for us to pick up a WT and get the same thing? Why not pour your truth straight-up, without all the added preservatives, artificial sweeteners, fillers, dyes, unlisted ingredients and "adjustments"?

From my perspective it’s just hard to think of a theology more conducive to false prophesy than the Watchtower. You think nothing of calling what is false, true, and what is true, false, then switch the whole thing around with an "adjustment", all in the name of God, all published with absolutely no caveats whatsoever, whilst your members are asked to report, haul away, and potentially shun any member who staggers or becomes spiritually ill from the drink your Governing Board serves them!

But let's get to the nitty gritty about the "slave class".

As stated, I have no idea what your "current teaching" is about your current Governing Board. It's too difficult to tell. But I can tell you about your past Governing Board, and they left absolutely no doubt in anyone's mind they were inspired and/or guided. This poses a problem for your current Governing Board, especially if rumors are floating around your congregations that they're not as "guided" as your last "slave class" crop.

We'll explore some of that in my next post.

Oeste · Apr 12, 2019

""The Sovereign Lord giveth the word." ... The expression "the word", therefore, includes every revelation of truth down to and including the book Vindication and whatsoever shall be revealed and published, by the Lord's grace, as long as the remnant is on earth." Watchtower 1932 Apr 1 p.101

The "servant" is not to tell his own message. Jehovah has made his "faithful servant" the "watchman", and only as the Lord God directs the "servant" to speak he does speak, having always a "Thus saith the Lord" for every part of the message that is delivered. The work of the "servant" is not to make converts to get them to join an organization, but to give a witness to the truth." Vindication Book One (1931) pp.45-46

Since the Watchtower clearly states it had a “Thus saith the Lord” in every part of the message that was delivered, we don’t need to give the same credence to any slave class that admittedly did not receive the same personal approval and credentialing by Jesus when he made his invisible trip to Brooklyn in 1919, and certainly not to a slave as "clearly guided" as the slave class was by God's "active force" in 1931. We know the"Lord's truth" was certainly in the Vindication Book, and "every part of the message that is delivered" by the faithful slave. We know that the current slave was prone to mistakes, whereas the former slave had direct guidance.

As the Watchtower says: "It is vital that we appreciate this fact and respond to the directions of the "slave" as we would to the voice of God, because it is His provision." Watchtower 1957 Jun 15 p.370

Now this does not mean there can be no new slave to lead the flock. After all, we all get old, and Jehovah will not leave His Organization in a lurch. But if the new slave does not have a "Thus saith the Lord" in every part of the message (and nPeace has already assured us they do not) then there is no need to listen, let alone follow, anything that differs from what the Lord clearly stated through "His provision" earlier.

So where do we go? Why we first go to the slave who is clearly inspired with a "Thus saith the Lord" and not the slave who claims mere guidance and is prone to making mistakes. The slave with clear guidance would be Rutherford, and he published not only Vindication, but The Finished Mystery. Remember, "Thus saith the Lord" includes EVERY revelation of truth down to and including Vindication".

But let's go back to ministry school, where the question is asked: How do we determine a counterfeit bill? Why we hold up an original bill and compare the second bill to it. If we see some "adjustments" that are dissimilar to the original bill, we know the bill is counterfeit, correct?

Well, in the same way we can hold up the doctrines of an uninspired, merely guided Slave class, and compare their teachings to a Slave class that was inspired. If these new teaching differ from the original, then we know those doctrines are counterfeit. So it's important to get the original "Finished Mystery"as published by Rutherford, but any modern version is fine to the extent it remains "faithful" to the "faithful" slave of old. We don't want a version where possible apostasy has set in.

Now before we go on, let's review what was posted before:

nPeace said:
The difference between the GB, and the Bible writers, is that while the Bible writers claimed to be inspired of God, the GB does not.

Obviously nPeace is speaking about the current existing slave class, because the former existing slave class disagrees with him. The current slave class doesn't have a "Thus saith the Lord" when they issue a Watchtower or publication. The former slave class did.

As such, any later "adjustments" by an uninspired slave that changes a "Thus saith the Lord" by an inspired slave, is heretical or apostate.

So to get "the truth", the whole truth,and nothing but the truth, without all the added ingredients and fillers, we must first familiarize ourselves with Rutherford's work,specifically "every part of the message that is delivered" unerringly by God's Spirit, or "spirit" if JW's prefer, and faithfully conveyed in his publications such as The Finished Mystery. Why? Because it is "His (Jehovah's) provision" (see above).

So when is the cutoff date, you might ask, between the inspired, "Thus saith the Lord" slave class and the uninspired, "we might not always get it right" slave class? Why the Watchtower gives us the answer of course:

"Jehovah's people confess no powers of inspiration today" Watchtower 1952 Apr 15 p.253

So we know that as of April 15, 1952, the Watchtower had "no powers of inspiration" because the former class that did was gone by that time. Interestingly, two years later, this uninspired slave class told their members that Jesus was NOT to receive the same "worship" as Jehovah, and that members were to split their worship into two categories... full worship for Jehovah, and "obeisance" for Jesus, the same "obeisance" one might give in the secular world to a minor lord or nobleman.

But I digress. We really need to get back to the original, no mistake, spirit directed, Jesus approved, God given truth found in The Finished Mystery. Any deviation from the current uninspired "slave class" from the Divine revelations found in the original unmodified Rutherford produced publication can be appropriately named "apostate".

Of course, we only need to do this if we actually, truly believe the Watchtower is "Jehovah's Organization". However the Witnesses I have met have assured me it is, so we owe it to ourselves to at least consider their argument veracious and not toss it out of hand.

Unfortunately I'll be gone for a few days, so I'll do that when I come back. But I wouldn't worry, the current slave is called the "faithful" discreet slave for a reason, so I expect they have remained faithful to the truths revealed to the former slave and we shouldn't find anything "out of whack" or much to give one pause.

And please, for anyone familiar with The Finished Mystery (free, virus safe, e-book download here) feel free to start without me.

nPeace · Apr 12, 2019

Shadow Wolf said:
Name one other time in history where Europe has gone this long without any major internal wars/conflicts.
Instead of a 100 Year War, they've almost had 100 years of peace.

Seriously?
I don't believe it.
I have been saying it before, but apparently, you must not only be in a deep sleep, and dreaming, but snoring loudly, because you didn't seem to hear me.

Repeating... Centuries before the 19th century - particularly 1914.
Consider this article, and the accompanying chart - which does not take in those centuries, but nonetheless show the difference. Crime, 1780-1925 | The Digital Panopticon

Now though, do you mean to tell me that you are closing your window to just a crack - Europe?
Sorry. Although there is glaring evidence that Europe, like all other places in the world, experienced a significant amount of peace, before development, Crime rates are much higher in big cities than in either small cities or rural areas, and this situation has been relatively pervasive for several centuries.
https://www.nber.org/papers/w5430.pdf

We were talking however, about the world. Europe is not the world.
This only confirms that you know your argument is not fact supported. Why not just admit it?
Mine, on the other hand, is. Historical Data

nPeace · Apr 12, 2019

Shadow Wolf said:
I'm very awake. However I'm not afraid. Things aren't perfect and there is still war and violence. But it's went down even from even 20 years ago, and it's been on a consistent downward trend. It's still an issue, but at the same time we have much significant progress. Some entire countries even have very few murders and robberies (Japan has only 1 of each per 100,000 people, with not even 1.5 million crimes reported in 2012, and it went down in 2013).

Nope. It seems quite evident you are in a deep sleep - one you don't wish to awaken from any time soon.
Notice the charts I linked to in my preceding post. Note that there was a seeming gradual decline, before the great gigantic rise. Now watch the seeming gradual decline.
In your apparent dream, you are seeing a leveling off, aren't you?
Are you seeing mankind change his mentality, and behavior for the better? Or are you seeing a force so great to stop man from carrying out his corrupt and depraved thoughts?

nPeace · Apr 12, 2019

Shadow Wolf said:
Exactly. 75 years without any major internal conflicts/wars. My whole point has been that while there is still violence, it's gotten significantly better. It's to the point that many countries, including Germany, are enjoying their longest period of border stability.

Again, you are peeping through a window that's opened to a crack. You seem to want to control the size of your window, and what you see..
Crime is not narrowed down to violence. That's why I included the data I did.Crime against children need not be violent, but it's crime - so is robbery, and corruption.
So what are you really making an argument for? Perhaps we need to clear that up.

nPeace · Apr 12, 2019

Oeste said:
If I’m not mistaken the WT has done both. I’ve already presented the article “The Nations Shall Know a Prophet was among them”, something the WT prophesied about itself which simply never came true.

And why didn’t it come true? Because the events prophesied, which we were told would take place at an “expected” time didn’t come true. That’s the problem with false prophets. There “expectations” simply don’t come true.

Please try not to misapply what you read.
You are mistaken.... apparently - no ifs, about it.

Oeste said:
It doesn’t matter whether Witnesses believe God “inspired” or “guided” the Governing Board into false prophesies because false prophesy is still a sin.

What part of Ezekiel 13:6-8 does your Organization not get? There is no reasonable scriptural basis on which to justify false prophesy nPeace. It's like adultery. Apologize, make recompense to the extent you are able, repent and move on.

Repeating... The GB never claimed to give prophecies.
Seems to me, you have no intention of acknowledging your false accusations, admitting you are not speaking the truth, and repenting.

Oeste said:
Great! Then I’m sure they have admitted their mistakes, apologized, and repented. Unfortunately, unless they do this they are just as disqualified as the prophets during Ezekial’s time.

Have they apologized? Have they repented? Has your Organization claimed amnesty and respite, welcoming back anyone adversely affected or excommunicated by reason of a false prophesy, or are your judicial committees simply waiting for them to apologize for getting sick?

According to the scriptures, Jehovah is directing his organization.
He does not make apologies for rooting out those who do not belong to him.
Nor does he adjust his ways to suit those who complain about how he does things.
There is a great lesson I see in Jesus' example. (John 6) When many of his disciples left, after hearing what he said, Jesus did not run behind them, did he?
That to me is huge. Evidently Jehovah knows whom to let in, and whom to let out.

Oeste said:
I think you are making a flair for the dramatic.

Is kneeling before men, pleading for mercy how you view an apology and repentance? Such a view would certainly give insight into the Witness mindset, especially with how your judicial committees might view the repentant.

Not sure what you are trying to imply here.

Oeste said:
Fantasize all the check marks you want, but you’ll never see 1914, 1925, or any WT inspired date fall from a bible. The New Testament writers didn’t prophesize any of that nonsense. The Watchtower did.

Check one. Done.

If the Watchtower apologizes and repents then no, “there is nothing more to say”. But until they do they remain in their sin. That’s been the whole point of my posts.

Okay. So we will await the execution after your judgments.

Oeste said:
Then Peter said, "Silver or gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you”. (Acts 3:6)

And this “mission” was to conflate their own words with scripture at the (a) guidance or (b) inspiration of Jehovah (take your pick), add a few jots and tittles then go door to door with false prophesies disguised as Jehovah’s “truth” worldwide? It’s unfortunate they’re so busy with Matthew 24:14; 28:18-20 that they feel they have no time to repent.

How many times repeating false statements do you think will be required to make your point?
Do you think a million times on these forums will make a difference?
No interested person is paying you any mind.
When any honest-hearted person comes in contact with the message of the good news of God's kingdom, taught by JWs, do you think any of these dead bones you dig up, makes a difference to them.
Obviously you haven't been keeping up with the celestial chariot.
...but then, how could you?

Oeste said:
There are plenty of religious organization “unified in teachings”. That’s what makes a denomination a denomination nPeace. I just don’t see the point in mixing Fake news with Good news. They should have stuck with the biblical message rather than add their own.

You sound just like the man that brags about the plenty of apartments he owns. When asked to show he owns them, he simply repeats himself. They are so plentiful, he can't even find one.

Oeste said:
Also it appears Witnesses talk about going “door to door” as often as the Pharisees talked of tithing all they get. Either boast sounds the same to my ear, but I never had a Witness sit down and explain the difference in theirs.

Perhaps the Pharisee's claim was "too idle" while the Witness claim is "spot on"?

Seems to me that the followers of Christ would often talk about the good things Jesus did, and said - just as his earlier followers did.
I suppose to those who don't care much about what Jesus said and did, these thing might be irritating to their ears. After all tickling the ear feels better. 2 Timothy 4:3-5

nPeace · Apr 12, 2019

Oeste said:
No, 12Tartar's statement that the WT never changed its policies regarding unnatural sex:

Let's look at the quote again:

12Tartar’s statement is simply not true. Why? Because I quoted the WT article stating if your husband took a sheep to the hay, or if he was caught with another man in bed, the wife could not divorce him. In other words, if you were a woman you could have all the sex you wanted with another woman, if a man, all the sex you wanted with another man, and either could have all the sex you wanted with a beast and your spouse could not divorce you and remain in good standing with the congregation. The spouse who went through with a divorce was shunned. Obviously the view of those having "unnatural sex" has changed since they it not only can lead to loss of fellowship but divorce.

So there was a change in your policy concerning "unnatural sex". And please, let me no one say this was a change in your marriage doctrine and not the doctrine regarding unnatural sex, because "unnatural sex" was never considered part of your marriage doctrine.

Agreed, but this also means it changed.

I think the “admirable” thing would have been to invite them back and apologize to everyone who was excommunicated simply because they had chosen to follow their God given conscience and the bible rather than the doctrines of men, aka the Governing Board. Ditto for any spouse who suffered and was expected to perform after their husband or wife had relations with a dog, sheep or goat or another same sex member. As for the GB’s “reasoning” they were certainly late to the party compared to other religions, but I'm glad they did come to reason.

Anyone not coming back should have been sent a letter of open invitation, signed by an elder in the congregation.

We were talking about whether the doctrine regarding “unnatural” sex changed - it did.

Who knows what the Organization’s "current understanding" is when all it takes is a "adjustment" on your website for a "past understanding" to change?

The important point to remember is that another policy changed which had adversely affected Witnesses without any apology, recompense or sign of repentance from the Governing Board.

It’s was no different from when the elders got involved in your bedrooms nPeace. The GB had the elders referee what was okay and not okay in the marriage bed to the consternation and embarrassment of your members. No apology for that either.

That’s true for those with humility, but the WT never admits that it is “wrong”. In fact, you can’t come out and say the Watchtower is or was “wrong” about anything and expect to remain in good standing. Instead, members who wish to avoid being “marked” have found it is far safer to refer to any wrong-headed WT doctrines as “former truths”.

Let me ask you a question: Does the GB claim to be anointed or not, and if so, by whom? Is it by the Spirit that will guide the Congregation into "all truth"? (John 16:13) If your current leadership didn't end up in truth, then obviously they were guided by the wrong spirit, or they are not anointed.

I get truth when I read my bible, and it’s chock full of fallible humans, all who manged to get "the truth" out without little asterisks stating *subject to adjustment later*. Why is it so difficult for us to pick up a WT and get the same thing? Why not pour your truth straight-up, without all the added preservatives, artificial sweeteners, fillers, dyes, unlisted ingredients and "adjustments"?

From my perspective it’s just hard to think of a theology more conducive to false prophesy than the Watchtower. You think nothing of calling what is false, true, and what is true, false, then switch the whole thing around with an "adjustment", all in the name of God, all published with absolutely no caveats whatsoever, whilst your members are asked to report, haul away, and potentially shun any member who staggers or becomes spiritually ill from the drink your Governing Board serves them!

But let's get to the nitty gritty about the "slave class".

As stated, I have no idea what your "current teaching" is about your current Governing Board. It's too difficult to tell. But I can tell you about your past Governing Board, and they left absolutely no doubt in anyone's mind they were inspired and/or guided. This poses a problem for your current Governing Board, especially if rumors are floating around your congregations that they're not as "guided" as your last "slave class" crop.

We'll explore some of that in my next post.

I get what your point is from this post, and I understand you.
However, let me ask this. If you, an adult got involved in an organization, and you saw or heard something you felt was not right, what would you do?
For example, each service you attended seem to focus on tithing, and you found that you seemed to be getting sucked dry... would you pray about the matter, consult God's word, what?
What would cause you to stay... as an adult?
Who would you blame, as an adult, if you lost much needed funds, and then you found later that what you did was not scripturally required?

Would you not conclude that you have to make a decision, either to consider those individuals as described at Matthew 7:15-20, or consider them as opposite?
Jesus did not lie, therefore, it is up to us to listen to him, acknowledge what he said, and apply it.
I have made my decision. Have you made yours?
Then what's the problem? You do believe Jesus, don't you?

From your posts, you have identified JWs as false prophets. Fine, no one... at east none of JWs will bite off your nose for concluding that. So tell me, if you believe Jesus' words, why do you think each of JWs, or none of them have the right to identify any religion as being false, or any proclaimed ministers as being false prophets?

From what we understand, the same Bible says that there is only one true faith, one way that has God's approval, leads to life. (Matthew 7:13, 14; Ephesians 4:1-6) Am I wrong? Please show me.
Does God Accept All Forms of Worship?

We as JWs make that identification, by considering the scriptures, along with Jesus' words - namely, as I mentioned before, united in love as one united brotherhood, engaged in preaching and teaching one unified message - the good news of the kingdom of God, and being no part of the world... which contributes to our unity and peace.
What contributes to our unity?

nPeace · Apr 12, 2019

Oeste said:
Since the Watchtower clearly states it had a “Thus saith the Lord” in every part of the message that was delivered, we don’t need to give the same credence to any slave class that admittedly did not receive the same personal approval and credentialing by Jesus when he made his invisible trip to Brooklyn in 1919, and certainly not to a slave as "clearly guided" as the slave class was by God's "active force" in 1931. We know the"Lord's truth" was certainly in the Vindication Book, and "every part of the message that is delivered" by the faithful slave. We know that the current slave was prone to mistakes, whereas the former slave had direct guidance.

As the Watchtower says: "It is vital that we appreciate this fact and respond to the directions of the "slave" as we would to the voice of God, because it is His provision." Watchtower 1957 Jun 15 p.370

Now this does not mean there can be no new slave to lead the flock. After all, we all get old, and Jehovah will not leave His Organization in a lurch. But if the new slave does not have a "Thus saith the Lord" in every part of the message (and nPeace has already assured us they do not) then there is no need to listen, let alone follow, anything that differs from what the Lord clearly stated through "His provision" earlier.

So where do we go? Why we first go to the slave who is clearly inspired with a "Thus saith the Lord" and not the slave who claims mere guidance and is prone to making mistakes. The slave with clear guidance would be Rutherford, and he published not only Vindication, but The Finished Mystery. Remember, "Thus saith the Lord" includes EVERY revelation of truth down to and including Vindication".

But let's go back to ministry school, where the question is asked: How do we determine a counterfeit bill? Why we hold up an original bill and compare the second bill to it. If we see some "adjustments" that are dissimilar to the original bill, we know the bill is counterfeit, correct?

Well, in the same way we can hold up the doctrines of an uninspired, merely guided Slave class, and compare their teachings to a Slave class that was inspired. If these new teaching differ from the original, then we know those doctrines are counterfeit. So it's important to get the original "Finished Mystery"as published by Rutherford, but any modern version is fine to the extent it remains "faithful" to the "faithful" slave of old. We don't want a version where possible apostasy has set in.

Now before we go on, let's review what was posted before:

Obviously nPeace is speaking about the current existing slave class, because the former existing slave class disagrees with him. The current slave class doesn't have a "Thus saith the Lord" when they issue a Watchtower or publication. The former slave class did.

As such, any later "adjustments" by an uninspired slave that changes a "Thus saith the Lord" by an inspired slave, is heretical or apostate.

So to get "the truth", the whole truth,and nothing but the truth, without all the added ingredients and fillers, we must first familiarize ourselves with Rutherford's work,specifically "every part of the message that is delivered" unerringly by God's Spirit, or "spirit" if JW's prefer, and faithfully conveyed in his publications such as The Finished Mystery. Why? Because it is "His (Jehovah's) provision" (see above).

So when is the cutoff date, you might ask, between the inspired, "Thus saith the Lord" slave class and the uninspired, "we might not always get it right" slave class? Why the Watchtower gives us the answer of course:

"Jehovah's people confess no powers of inspiration today" Watchtower 1952 Apr 15 p.253

So we know that as of April 15, 1952, the Watchtower had "no powers of inspiration" because the former class that did was gone by that time. Interestingly, two years later, this uninspired slave class told their members that Jesus was NOT to receive the same "worship" as Jehovah, and that members were to split their worship into two categories... full worship for Jehovah, and "obeisance" for Jesus, the same "obeisance" one might give in the secular world to a minor lord or nobleman.

But I digress. We really need to get back to the original, no mistake, spirit directed, Jesus approved, God given truth found in The Finished Mystery. Any deviation from the current uninspired "slave class" from the Divine revelations found in the original unmodified Rutherford produced publication can be appropriately named "apostate".

Of course, we only need to do this if we actually, truly believe the Watchtower is "Jehovah's Organization". However the Witnesses I have met have assured me it is, so we owe it to ourselves to at least consider their argument veracious and not toss it out of hand.

Unfortunately I'll be gone for a few days, so I'll do that when I come back. But I wouldn't worry, the current slave is called the "faithful" discreet slave for a reason, so I expect they have remained faithful to the truths revealed to the former slave and we shouldn't find anything "out of whack" or much to give one pause.

And please, for anyone familiar with The Finished Mystery (free, virus safe, e-book download here) feel free to start without me.

The same is true today. Matthew 24:45-47. Just as in the past, adults, or mature young ones make an informed decision to listen to the slave.
No baptized JW is a child that needs someone to hold their hand and take them anywhere. Nor does anyone hold a loaded pistol to their head, and tell them "do or die".
Each one makes a decision on their own.
Each one recognized the voice of the shepherd - Christ - and the follow.
They can identify the voice of a stranger, and they flee.
John 10

nPeace · Apr 12, 2019

Oeste said:
I think you want to compare religions out of an imagined sense of religious superiority or supremacy. If so you are right…I have no interest in that, but I’ve already addressed it. If you think Witnesses are more holy than other Christians, then they can take their rightful spot of veneration with the Pharisee…who also felt holier than other Jews.

If not, then work toward applying the same standards to everyone in your Organization. We all sin, so we all need to repent.

You say this but I’m not sure you really are. This whole matter, which understandably puts you in a very awkward position, is entirely unnecessary because it’s so blatantly unscriptural. If the GB apologizes and repents, if members stop making excuses for them, if you hold them accountable to the same high standards you hold the least in your Organization then no one, (including me) would have anything to say.

Our sins are covered by Christ but not for those too proud to repent.

Excellent @nPeace, I enjoyed that!!

But if you had actually found Bin Laden, what then? If I go door to door telling everyone the secret password to the Kingdom is “Blue” when the real password is ”Red” of what value is my message? There’s an old saying nPeace, written by a Reformed Baptist minister:

View attachment 28190

Virtually anyone can tell us what Jehovah Witnesses said about 1975, but what can the average Joe tell us regarding your views on the Kingdom of God? Virtually nothing, and even after decades of “door to door” work it remains an unfortunate “truth” of the Watchtower ministry.

Imagine this, if you can...
You heard of a train that is traveling to the most sought after trip in the world - a place you heard about, never saw, but dreamed of.... Closest thing to heaven they said. No man ever saw heaven, but hey... It's an analogy.
You are given specific - specific instructions, on the color of the train, and other identifying marks, and you are told that failing to identify those features, you could end up on the wrong train, and miss the destination.
However, you start to reason to yourself, "Man, it's impossible to id this train, out of all these others. I don't think one train should stand out apart from the others. Those who think they can identify it, only think so, because they think they are better than other people - that they are special. That's stupid."

Now the train comes, and while you are not even bothering to make an effort to consider the instructions given you, passengers board, and wave "bye bye" as the train pulls away.

I don't know about you Oeste, but the promise of everlasting life Paradise, made by one who does not lie, means more to me, than some train ride to a temporary trip to a sigh-seeing event.
Jesus outlined exactly what to look for, and in my opinion, it's too bad that those who claim to be Christian, are unable to identify, themselves with truth.
This is opposite to Jesus' followers. - They were never half-hearted, or doubtful, but the were bold in their expressions...
1 John 4:6 We originate with God. Whoever comes to know God listens to us; whoever does not originate with God does not listen to us. By this we distinguish the inspired statement of truth from the inspired statement of error.

1 John 5:19, 20 19 We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one. 20 But we know that the Son of God has come, and he has given us insight so that we may gain the knowledge of the one who is true. And we are in union with the one who is true, by means of his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and life everlasting.

Pharisees? Far from.
Why so bold and confident?
John 10:27, 28 27 My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them everlasting life, and they will by no means ever be destroyed, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Yes. holy spirit reveals this. The same holy spirit that Jesus said, revealed to Peter, that Jesus Christ is the son of God.

savagewind · Apr 12, 2019

nPeace said:
Repeating... The GB never claimed to give prophecies.

Please define YOUR definition of prophesy.

I understand that it means to speak about what God's will is.

Obviously, that cannot be YOUR definition.

So, I suppose, we need to know what it is.

What is it?

Definition of PROPHESY

Shadow Wolf · Apr 12, 2019

nPeace said:
Crime is not narrowed down to violence. That's why I included the data I did.Crime against children need not be violent, but it's crime - so is robbery, and corruption.
So what are you really making an argument for? Perhaps we need to clear that up.

I know crime is not the same as violence. But both are going down. We are having less and less, with so many places around the world enjoying a general downward trend in crime and violence.
Things are getting so much better (we're even starting to grant protections to non-human animals), not worse.

Shadow Wolf · Apr 12, 2019

nPeace said:
Nope. It seems quite evident you are in a deep sleep - one you don't wish to awaken from any time soon.

It seems to me you are scared and not wanting to accept facts, perhaps because you want too much to not admit humans are doing what you think we need your god to do. God didn't end what most of the world used to know as poverty. Humans did. God didn't prohibit domestic rape. Humans did. God didn't invent the industrialism that lifted and elevated millions and billions out of extreme poverty around the world. Humans did.

Peace & Security or Sudden Destruction?

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