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Can Islamic and Christian Theological Concepts of God be reconciled?

Can Islamic and Christian Theological Concepts of God be reconciled?

  • Yes

    Votes: 10 17.5%
  • No

    Votes: 36 63.2%
  • Possibly

    Votes: 6 10.5%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 5 8.8%

  • Total voters
    57

iam1me

Active Member
I find it very difficult..

After Adam and Eve sinned, they were separated from the love of God.

They weren't separated from the love of God, but from his direct presence. Indeed, as the OT progresses, as sin increases, God further distances himself from the people. Thus the need for mediators. The Old Covenant was mediated by angels, the New Covenant by Christ.

Isaiah 1:10-15
Hear the word of the Lord,
you rulers of Sodom;
listen to the instruction of our God,
you people of Gomorrah!
11 “The multitude of your sacrifices—
what are they to me?” says the Lord.
“I have more than enough of burnt offerings,
of rams and the fat of fattened animals;
I have no pleasure
in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.
12 When you come to appear before me,
who has asked this of you,
this trampling of my courts?
13 Stop bringing meaningless offerings!
Your incense is detestable to me.
New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations—
I cannot bear your worthless assemblies.
14 Your New Moon feasts and your appointed festivals
I hate with all my being.
They have become a burden to me;
I am weary of bearing them.
15 When you spread out your hands in prayer,
I hide my eyes from you;
even when you offer many prayers,
I am not listening.
Your hands are full of blood!

As you read through the Old Testament you realize that to be close to God, there had to be a shedding of blood in sacrifice.

In scripture, blood = life. The punishment for all sin is - ultimately - death. God instituted sacrifices as a means through which the people might repent and be forgiven by means of a pure substitute, a sacrifice without blemish. This is an act of mercy demonstrating God's desire that we be reconciled to him rather than face justice.


Leviticus 17:14 because the life of every creature is its blood. That is why I have said to the Israelites, “You must not eat the blood of any creature, because the life of every creature is its blood; anyone who eats it must be cut off.”

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


The sacrifice was usually a lamb that was cut open and then burned on an altar. In the New Testament, Jesus came to earth to be the PERMANENT sacrifice for all sin. That means, you, me, and every person in the entire world from past to present...even those who don't believe in Him, still get a chance to do so while they are alive.

Remember sin, separates us from God. In Romans 3: 10 - 11 we find that "there is none righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands".

It means that there is not one person with the power to send themselves to heaven or no matter what you do in and of yourself, you are not worthy to come before God the Father. Only through the blood sacrifice of His Son Jesus Christ, can hope to be with God.

Here's what really gets me.. If Jesus already paid the price, what is the point of further judgment?

On the other hand, Muslims believe that every person is accountable to God for his own sins. Muhammed's early sermons were basically, "Save yourselves. I cannot save you. Return to the God of Abraham."

I hope I don't sound like I'm preaching because that is NOT my intention.

Good questions. This gets into theology that can be more divisive among different sects of Christianity, but I'll share my views on the matter. To help understand this better, we need to look closer at what the intent of Christ's sacrifice actually was, what did it accomplish? The answer to this is that Christ's sacrifice established the New Covenant - which is an agreement, a contract between us and God.

Jeremiah 31:31-34 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband tod]">[d] them,e]">[e]”
declares the Lord.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

Luke 22:21 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

So under the New Covenant, the people of God are those who have God's Law written on their hearts and minds (and act accordingly). Jesus, in turn summarizes the Law as love. To love is know and be known by God, for God is love. Those who persist in doing good are rewarded with eternal life, while those who persist in doing evil receive eternal destruction. This applies to all people, whether they came before or after Christ, whether believers or atheists or what have you. For we are not judged by our doctrines, but by our deeds.

Romans 2:6-11 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”a]">[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

As seen in the parable of the Sheep and Goats in Matthew 25, God credits the good you do for others as if you had done them for him. On the other hand, when you abandon people in need or harm them, God treats that also like you have done that to him. Thus even the non-believer can known by God if they do what is right and good, and their reward will not be lost.

Matthew 25:34-40 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ 40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

Those fall under the New Covenant, those who pursue what is right and good, those who love others - these reap the benefits of the New Covenant. For God looks past their sin and rewards them for their persistence in doing good. The New Covenant is commonly accessible to all. However, those who persist in sin, who live for themselves and abandon those in need, who bring harm unto others - these are not God's people and are not under the New Covenant.

Matthew 25:41-45“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ 44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ 45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
 
Last edited:

sooda

Veteran Member
They weren't separated from the love of God, but from his direct presence. Indeed, as the OT progresses, as sin increases, God further distances himself from the people. Thus the need for mediators. The Old Covenant was mediated by angels, the New Covenant by Christ.

Isaiah 1:10-15
Hear the word of the Lord,
you rulers of Sodom;
listen to the instruction of our God,
you people of Gomorrah!
11 “The multitude of your sacrifices—
what are they to me?” says the Lord.
“I have more than enough of burnt offerings,
of rams and the fat of fattened animals;
I have no pleasure
in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.
12 When you come to appear before me,
who has asked this of you,
this trampling of my courts?
13 Stop bringing meaningless offerings!
Your incense is detestable to me.
New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations—
I cannot bear your worthless assemblies.
14 Your New Moon feasts and your appointed festivals
I hate with all my being.
They have become a burden to me;
I am weary of bearing them.
15 When you spread out your hands in prayer,
I hide my eyes from you;
even when you offer many prayers,
I am not listening.
Your hands are full of blood!



In scripture, blood = life. The punishment for all sin is - ultimately - death. God instituted sacrifices as a means through which the people might repent and be forgiven by means of a pure substitute, a sacrifice without blemish. This is an act of mercy demonstrating God's desire that we be reconciled to him rather than face justice.


Leviticus 17:14 because the life of every creature is its blood. That is why I have said to the Israelites, “You must not eat the blood of any creature, because the life of every creature is its blood; anyone who eats it must be cut off.”

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.




Good questions. This gets into theology that can be more divisive among different sects of Christianity, but I'll share my views on the matter. To help understand this better, we need to look closer at what the intent of Christ's sacrifice actually was, what did it accomplish? The answer to this is that Christ's sacrifice established the New Covenant - which is an agreement, a contract between us and God.

Jeremiah 31:31-34 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband tod]">[d] them,e]">[e]”
declares the Lord.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

Luke 22:21 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

So under the New Covenant, the people of God are those who have God's Law written on their hearts and minds (and act accordingly). Jesus, in turn summarizes the Law as love. To love is know and be known by God, for God is love. Those who persist in doing good are rewarded with eternal life, while those who persist in doing evil receive eternal destruction. This applies to all people, whether they came before or after Christ, whether believers or atheists or what have you. For we are not judged by our doctrines, but by our deeds.

Romans 2:6-11 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”a]">[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

As seen in the parable of the Sheep and Goats in Matthew 25, God credits the good you do for others as if you had done them for him. On the other hand, when you abandon people in need or harm them, God treats that also like you have done that to him. Thus even the non-believer can known by God if they do what is right and good, and their reward will not be lost.

Those fall under the New Covenant, those who pursue what is right and good, those who love others - these reap the benefits of the New Covenant. For God looks past their sin and rewards them for their persistence in doing good. The New Covenant is commonly accessible to all. However, those who persist in sin, who live for themselves and abandon those in need, who bring harm unto others - these are not God's people and are not under the New Covenant.

Matthew 25:41-45“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ 44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ 45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

You have to realize ALL of this hangs on a myth about Adam and Eve.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Original Sin is a Catholic doctrine - not a fundamental teaching of Christianity. Many Christians don't believe in Original Sin either, such as myself.



Exodus 4:22Then say to Pharaoh, ‘This is what the Lord says: Israel is my firstborn son,



Not accurate. Christianity is founded upon Christ's blood - the blood of the New Covenant. Christianity rejects the need for continual sacrifices, since Christ's sacrifice covers us once and for all.

That's what I just said.
 

iam1me

Active Member
That's what I just said.

You said Christianity rejects blood sacrifices, which i pointed out is not accurate. Christianity is founded upon Christ’s sacrifice. Christianity only rejects the need for additional blood sacrifices to address sin.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It is clear that Islam didn't come from God. There is no precedence in Judaism/Christianity for Muhammad, nor are his teachings in agreement with Christ's.

Muhammad is foretold in Daniel and Revelation.

Your Idea about Christ is what Muhammad taught way back in the 600's.

Personal Salvation does require you to change your own self, it starts with the gift of Faith in Gods Messenger, then one has to live the life.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I’ll bite- what scriptures in Daniel and Revelations foreshadow Muhammad?

There is detailed explanations given by Abdul'baha in 'Some Answerd Questions. I will not repeat those explanations here, but will link them if you would like to read them.

This all ties together with the expectations of the return of Christ in the 1800's. Are you aware of William Millers prediction?

If not 1844 is the key as 1844 allows us to consider what Times Times and Half a Time, 3 1/2 years, 42 Months, 1260 days all refer to. They are all 1260 Years in biblical Prophecy.

Before Christ was to return, power was given to two witnesses, clothed in sackcloth to give prophecy for 1260 years.

William Miller found 1844 was to be the year of Christs Return, day and hour still unknown. 1844 was also the Muslim year 1260. There is great wisdom why the Muslims through the Ottaman empire had control of the Holy Land, the Bible said it would be so. It was an Ottaman edict dated March 1844 that paved the way for the Jews to return to the Holy Land as per scripture.

Regards Tony
 

sooda

Veteran Member
There is detailed explanations given by Abdul'baha in 'Some Answerd Questions. I will not repeat those explanations here, but will link them if you would like to read them.

This all ties together with the expectations of the return of Christ in the 1800's. Are you aware of William Millers prediction?

If not 1844 is the key as 1844 allows us to consider what Times Times and Half a Time, 3 1/2 years, 42 Months, 1260 days all refer to. They are all 1260 Years in biblical Prophecy.

Before Christ was to return, power was given to two witnesses, clothed in sackcloth to give prophecy for 1260 years.

William Miller found 1844 was to be the year of Christs Return, day and hour still unknown. 1844 was also the Muslim year 1260. There is great wisdom why the Muslims through the Ottaman empire had control of the Holy Land, the Bible said it would be so. It was an Ottaman edict dated March 1844 that paved the way for the Jews to return to the Holy Land as per scripture.

Regards Tony

Edict of Toleration 1844. A particular incident in 1843 with an Armenian Ottoman subject sparked an incident in August which gained international entanglements and then a Greek national in November, both of whom were put to death - the process of which became the Edict in March 1844. Reverend Edward Bickersteth referred to these developments in 1844...
Edict of Toleration 1844 - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Toleration_1844
 

iam1me

Active Member
There is detailed explanations given by Abdul'baha in 'Some Answerd Questions. I will not repeat those explanations here, but will link them if you would like to read them.

What I'd like to see are the alleged scriptures you alluded to

This all ties together with the expectations of the return of Christ in the 1800's. Are you aware of William Millers prediction?

Had to do a refresher, as I didn't remember him by name. But have heard of him and his debunked attempts at calculating the Christ's return.

William Miller found 1844 was to be the year of Christs Return, day and hour still unknown.

It is non-sense to attempt to deduce when Christ will return - for he himself did not know.

Matthew 24:36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Your comment reveals that you are familiar with this and similar verses - but simultaneously reveals a complete misunderstanding of what is being asserted.

This is a classic Spirit vs Letter of the Law type scenario. You might say that the text doesn't explicitly ban knowing the year, and you'd be correct. However, the intended meaning of the passage is clear: the time when Christ will return is something that is known only to the Father. It's not something you are going to be able to deduce. We will only know when the Father decides to reveal it.

Hence William Miller's multiple attempts at predicting Christ's return failed, as have all the other numerous attempts at determining dates and times for the end of days.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It's not something you are going to be able to deduce. We will only know when the Father decides to reveal it.

God decided, it was the evening of May 23rd 1844.

If that is an exciting possibility, then it is worth discussing, if it is something you want more information to refute, then it would just be a waste of time and best left alone

Which is it for you?

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I would consider the answer to be yes, no, or maybe

Yes - Requires a new way to look at the same scriputres.
No - Unchanged views of same scriptures.
Maybe - Possibilty of excepting a new way to look at those scriptures.

I voted yes as I have accepted the explanation by Baha'u'llah that explains how they can be reconciled.

Regards Tony
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
This varies greatly depending upon the particular sect of Christianity you are speaking of and of the individuals in question. Also, completely irrelevant to the question of whether or not Christianity is a Jewish sect.

The question of whether or not Christianity is a Jewish sect is a matter of definition. Most Jews, Christians and religious scholars would regard the two religions as independent of each other. No one denies Christianity emerged from Judaism, but Jews wouldn't consider Christianity as a Jewish sect and most Christians would agree.

You may be interested in this thread:

The Jewish-Christian schism

As is Christianity

Its certainly debatable to what extend Christianity has become polytheistic with three separate yet inter-related parts of the one God. There is good justification to view the trinity doctrine as at least heading down the slippery slope towards polytheism.

'Orthodox' Christianity believes that God is a Trinity - and they are still monotheists. The Trinity, however, was not taught by Christ nor is it found in the scriptures. It took hundreds of years to develop and was forced upon people (outside of the Roman Empire, non-trinitarian views persisted). I myself reject the Trinity doctrine - the scriptures are abundantly clear that Jesus is not God Almighty. Here's a few verses, from a numerous collection, where Jesus is clearly shown to be distinct and subordinate to God:

John 14:28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

Colossians 3:1Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

1 Cor 15:27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”c]">[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

You don't need to be quoting the bible to support your denial of the trinity doctrine. I agree. Of course so too did Muhammad.

O People of the Scripture. do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.
Qur'an, sura 4 verse171

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness. If You should punish them - indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them - indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.
Qur'an, sura verses 116-118

Where many Christians get into trouble is that there are a couple verses where Jesus is addressed as God. Since they have not studied the scriptures thoroughly, they try to interpret this literally. However, having someone other than God being addressed as if God (or gods) is actually common. Moses was addressed as God, the Angels were addressed as God, and the Jewish people are declared to be gods. Of course, studied in context, it is clear that none of these are literally God himself. So it is with Christ.

Exodus 7:1 Then the Lord said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet.

Psalm 82:6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.’

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’?

Exodus 3:2 There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush....
Exodus 3:4 When the Lord saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!”


So God's representatives and people within scripture are often presented as if God himself, or as "gods."

It all comes down to interpretation of scripture, rather than a problem with the sacred text itself, I agree. However most of your fellow Christians believe in the trinity. How far Christianity has strayed.

The identity of Christ is THE dividing point between Christianity and Judaism. If they accepted Jesus as the Messiah, they would be Christian. This conflict doesn't call into question Christianities identity as a Jewish sect, however - but emphasizes it, as noted earlier.

That's not really saying very much though. Anyone who accepts Jesus as the Messiah in the Hebrew Bible becomes a Christian, not just the Jews. Even I'm a Christian.

It is clear that Islam didn't come from God. There is no precedence in Judaism/Christianity for Muhammad, nor are his teachings in agreement with Christ's.

No. It is your belief that Islam didn't come from God. What is clear to you is rejected by a quarter of the world's population who are Muslim. Further Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, and appears likely to overtake Christianity as the religion with the most adherents world wide in about 50 years. You have no argument against this other than a misguided belief that God can't manifest Himself through those who aren't Jewish. Not even the Hebrew Bible supports such a narrow view (Isaiah 44:28, Isaiah 45:1).
 

iam1me

Active Member
God decided, it was the evening of May 23rd 1844.

If that is an exciting possibility, then it is worth discussing, if it is something you want more information to refute, then it would just be a waste of time and best left alone

Which is it for you?

Regards Tony

This is going far off track from my request that you supply the scriptures that you allege exist in Daniel and Revelations that foreshadow Muhammad. At this point I'm just ready to assume you have no such scripture references.

As for the debunked 1844 predictions, we don't need to waste any time on those - it is clear that those were failed predictions, and that the very idea of predicting when Christ will return is foolishness that contradicts Christ's own testimony on the matter.

If Christ's Second Coming was in 1844, we would all know it. It is an even that shall be witnessed by all.

Matthew 24:30-31 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earthc]">[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d]">[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.|

Revelations 1:7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”b]">[b] and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”c]">[c] So shall it be! Amen.
 

iam1me

Active Member
The question of whether or not Christianity is a Jewish sect is a matter of definition.

By definition, a Christian is a follower of Christ. Christ was a Jewish Rabbi and the Jewish Messiah. The disciples were Jewish, Paul was Jewish, etc. So... yea, Jewish. By definition.

Most Jews, Christians and religious scholars would regard the two religions as independent of each other.

They are regarded by religious scholars as distinct sects. It is useful to distinguish different sects of any religion when digging into matters where they differ. This applies between Christianity and other Jewish sects, and between the many sects just under the umbrella of Christianity. Catholic vs Protestant vs Orthodox. Calvinism vs Arminianism. Trinitarianism vs Arianism. etc. You can do the same for any major religion - they all have different sects that can vary significantly in doctrine.

No one denies Christianity emerged from Judaism, but Jews wouldn't consider Christianity as a Jewish sect and most Christians would agree.

If it emerged from Judaism then it is a Jewish sect, end of story. There is no good argument for saying that Christianity at some point ceased to be a Jewish sect - Judaism is the foundation of Christianity.

Most Christians would NOT agree with you that Christianity isn't rooted in Judaism - and thus a Jewish sect - both historically and presently. At no point did Christians abandon the idea that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah, or that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Moses.

Its certainly debatable to what extend Christianity has become polytheistic with three separate yet inter-related parts of the one God. There is good justification to view the trinity doctrine as at least heading down the slippery slope towards polytheism.

As far as what Trinitarians assert, they believe there is only one God. Indeed, the need to maintain monotheism was a primary guide for theologians - who explicitly did not want to say Jesus was a second god (though there were certain church fathers who stated as much).

Of course, when you attempt to evaluate it logically it starts to fall apart - which is why they inevitably fallback to calling it a mystery that can't be understood.

You don't need to be quoting the bible to support your denial of the trinity doctrine. I agree. Of course so too did Muhammad.

That was in reply to your assertion that Christianity is distinct from Judaism and Islam in that it has a triune God. The fact of the matter is that the doctrine of the Trinity is something that developed hundreds of years after Christ and is not taught by the scriptures. There are many who hold to Trinitarianism, and many who reject it. It isn't a requisite or definitive belief of Christianity (though Trinitarians may try to assert as much).

It all comes down to interpretation of scripture, rather than a problem with the sacred text itself, I agree. However most of your fellow Christians believe in the trinity. How far Christianity has strayed.

The real problem is that, by and large, people don't study their beliefs. They just go with whatever their local church handbook says, whatever happens to be taught at their pulpit on Sunday, and they don't question it. That said, not unexpected.

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.​

That's not really saying very much though. Anyone who accepts Jesus as the Messiah in the Hebrew Bible becomes a Christian, not just the Jews. Even I'm a Christian.

That is saying a lot - it's saying that this man, Jesus of Nazareth, is the long awaited Messiah of the Jewish people. He is the one through whom God has decided to reconcile all of mankind back to himself, it is through him that all may have forgiveness and life. To claim it's not saying very much only shows you lack understanding of Christ's significance.

Also, a Christian is more than one who merely just accepts Christ's identity - but one who is a follower of Christ, who accepts and obeys his teachings (and hence doesn't toss them aside to make them fit with other conflicting religions and philosophies).

No. It is your belief that Islam didn't come from God. What is clear to you is rejected by a quarter of the world's population who are Muslim. Further Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, and appears likely to overtake Christianity as the religion with the most adherents world wide in about 50 years. You have no argument against this other than a misguided belief that God can't manifest Himself through those who aren't Jewish. Not even the Hebrew Bible supports such a narrow view (Isaiah 44:28, Isaiah 45:1).

It is the nature of religion and philosophy that accepting one view as truth means rejecting those that conflict.

You attempt to merge everything into one - but in the process you are forced to reject the core teachings and practices of those religions and philosophies. The irony.
 

iam1me

Active Member
These tell a different story.

Revelation 16:15
Matthew 24:43
1 Thessalonians 5:2
2 Peter 3:10

Regards Tony

I'm afraid those scriptures all conflict with you as well.

Revelation 16:15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

Matthew 24:43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
The scriptures describe the coming of the Lord like a thief in the sense that no one knows when it will occur. If it were known and declared, everyone would simply keep watch at that specific period of time. Instead the time is kept secret, so that the only way to be ready and blessed is to persevere. Thus these scriptures, again, conflict with the notion that you can determine when the Second Coming is going to be.


2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.a]">[a]

Oh, yea, I'm sure no one will notice that - and no doubt it all happened in 1844 o_O
 
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