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Isaiah 53 Suffering Servant

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
Yeah, I don't know, my friend. I think what you're observing is The Book of Isaiah ( among others ) is very critical of the nation.

My questions are in maroon and are actually a duck test.
If Israel doesn't fit, then we gotta go with Jesus.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
So Israel is ugly?
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
First off, are you saying Jesus was ugly? Second, as to your question, the text says that "he" was marred in his appearance (as in 52:14). Other nations were shocked how hoe much the nation was reduced and decimated, and no one desired that the people be near them -- you of course recall how the Jews have been rejected from many countries throughout history.
And Israel is not the promise land but a land of suffering and pain?
He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
The word "Israel" refers to the physical country because that is the land of the nation of Israel. So Israel is the promised land (renamed from K'na'an) and also the nation which is spoken of often in the singular as a man. And, historically, this man of Israel has been rejected and forced to suffer.
Israel is not a great nation at all but a nation of shame?
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
That's one translation. The text reads וּכְמַסְתֵּ֤ר פָּנִים֙ מִמֶּ֔נּוּ which is, by some, rendered "and like one who hides his face from us". As the text is being put in the mouths of other nations, it is the nation of Israel who is seen hiding his face because of his shame. Either way, Israel's abject state, after invasion and exile, is certainly worth hiding, or hiding from. If I'm reading the targum right, it seems to say that it was the nation from whom God his His face.
When did Israel claim the suffering of mankind?
Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
Israel didn't claim it. The other nations recognized that Israel was suffering for the other nations' sins. They also recognized that Israel was suffering at their (the nations' hands), that is, "bore our suffering". Here is one write up of it
"Indeed, he bore our illnesses: Heb. אָכֵן, an expression of ‘but’ in all places. But now we see that this came to him not because of his low state, but that he was chastised with pains so that all the nations be atoned for with Israel’s suffering. The illness that should rightfully have come upon us, he bore.
yet we accounted him: We thought that he was hated by the Omnipresent, but he was not so, but he was pained because of our transgressions and crushed because of our iniquities."
Since when are the sins of mankind redeemed by Israel?
But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
First, that's a strange translation. The words for "transgressions" and "iniquities" are prefaced by the mem which means "from" or "because of" not really "for." The nations committed sins which led to the suffering of Israel. Nothing new there. In fact, the idea of "of", if it is correct, would only reflect the way the gentiles understand the relationship, not necessarily the truth of the situation. Next, there is an idea that Israel is responsible for the well being of the world. That's part of Israel's role, to atone for the nations and protect them. Here's an interesting talmudic quote (Sukkah, 55b)

"Rabbi Yoḥanan said: Woe unto the nations of the world that lost something and do not know what they lost. When the Temple is standing, the seventy bulls sacrificed on the altar during the festival of Sukkot atones for them. And now that the Temple is destroyed, who atones for them?"

with the destruction of the first temple, and later, the second, the world did not get the atonement through the sacrifices. So the nations say either that they admit to having caused Israel to suffer, or that the way they figure it, Israel is being punished as atonement for them.

Isaiah 53 How does Israel's suffering atone for the sins of the nations?

Isaiah 53: The Suffering Servant
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Isaiah makes it pretty clear that Israel is the servant of God. There is no mention of Jesus. Christians hijacked the Servant Song, just like they only use half of Hosea 11:1.

The literal meaning of the servant in Isaiah is Israel. The servant has been applied to many different people -- including Moses, Abraham and others.

Ezekiel 37:24-28 24"'My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. 25They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived. They and their children and their children's children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. 26I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28Then the nations will know that I the LORD make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.'"

Isaiah was written about 400 years before Christ so we can exclude verses in which servant is used in the present and past tense.

Terms like my chosen, my servant, I have chosen, you are my servant and formed from the womb, don't apply grammatically to the distant future.

Literally servant in Isaiah is 'obed' and David figuratively represents Christ his descendent. The Messiah is in David's lineage

In your view you need no savior, and have no sin problem or crisis. You earned your salvation yourself and you hope for a king who doesn't save you from sin but rather sympathizes with you and rewards you for your righteousness acts? Am I wrong?

The view there is no need for a substitutionary sacrifice ironically is in sharp disagreement with the exodus deliverance where they were 'redeemed by the blood of the lamb'. Not to mention the entire animal sacrifice system of the laws of Moses which point forward to the ultimate sacrifice in Jesus.

Believers were 'redeemed by the blood of the lamb' then, pointing to Jesus and mores 'redeemed by the blood of the lamb' now.
 
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whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Chap 53 starts with a "vav (and)". I think this means it is connected to previous verses. Maybe Tumah was giving us a hint about this in his post on this thread?

That's why I'm reviewing the whole book offline. I'm trying to figure out what chapter 53 is connected to.

It seems to me the phrase 'arm of the Lord' is significant

I also notice that 'the arm of the Lord' is in Isaiah 51 leading into the servant song in 52-53

Awake, awake, put on strength,
O arm of the Lord;
awake, as in days of old,
the generations of long ago.
Was it not you who cut Rahab in pieces,
who pierced the dragon?
10 Was it not you who dried up the sea,
the waters of the great deep,
who made the depths of the sea a way
for the redeemed to pass over?
11 And the ransomed of the Lord shall return
and come to Zion with singing;
everlasting joy shall be upon their heads;
they shall obtain gladness and joy,
and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.


Bottom line the arm of the Lord in 51 and 53 is divine not merely human and an astonishing special work of deliverance fo God. This is another reason it is not merely a human messiah or Israel but a divine Messiah, and in particular Jesus who was rejected, suffered for sins, died and overcame death, perfectly fulfilling horse passages

Isaiah 53:1 Who has believed our message and to whom has 'the arm of the Lord' been revealed to
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
First off, are you saying Jesus was ugly?

Isaiah said the servant is ugly.
If Jesus is the servant then he is ugly
If Israel isn't ugly then
Isa 53 is all about Jesus

I do not subscribe to Jesus paintings of Michelangelo or any artist.
But I think Jesus isn't attractive based on Isa 53.
However if Isa 53 is Israel - what an ugly nation Israel is.

Israel didn't claim it.

So, I claim it for Jesus Christ.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Literally servant in Isaiah is 'obed' and David figuratively represents Christ his descendent. The Messiah is in David's lineage
Actually, servant is eved, not obed. David, as a king, was anointed. The future messiah, from David's line will be anointed. No reason to interject anyone else.
you hope for a king who doesn't save you from sin but rather sympathizes with you and rewards you for your righteousness acts? Am I wrong?
Yes and no. The king does not reward us -- God does. The king does not redeem us or save us from sin. He leads.
The view there is no need for a substitutionary sacrifice ironically is in sharp disagreement with the exodus deliverance where they were 'redeemed by the blood of the lamb'.
If you really study the sacrificial system you will learn that an animal sacrifice only served to help atone for a small section of sins, and even then, flour could be used instead of an animal, so blood was not necessary.
Believers were 'redeemed by the blood of the lamb' then, pointing to Jesus and mores 'redeemed by the blood of the lamb' now.
I can't find a source for that quote in any Jewish text. Please pass a source my way so I can look it up. TIA.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Isaiah said the servant is ugly.
If Jesus is the servant then he is ugly
If Israel isn't ugly then
Isa 53 is all about Jesus
But since Israel was destroyed and embarrassed and forced to suffer, it hid its face. The text never says "ugly" though.
So, I claim it for Jesus Christ.
You aren't the one who makes the claim. The other nations assumed it about Israel.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Actually, servant is eved, not obed. David, as a king, was anointed. The future messiah, from David's line will be anointed. No reason to interject anyone else.

Yes and no. The king does not reward us -- God does. The king does not redeem us or save us from sin. He leads.

If you really study the sacrificial system you will learn that an animal sacrifice only served to help atone for a small section of sins, and even then, flour could be used instead of an animal, so blood was not necessary.

I can't find a source for that quote in any Jewish text. Please pass a source my way so I can look it up. TIA.

With no vowels what would be the difference between eved and obed?

The Passover itself is a picture of redemption through the blood of the lamb
Blood on doorposts - first born is redeemed
no blood on doorpost - no redemption

"The life of the flesh is in the blood I have given it to you to make atonement for your souls upon the Alter" God through Moses

In the book of Hebrews the entire church is 'the church of the firstborn ones" all redeemed firstborn in Christ.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
With no vowels what would be the difference between eved and obed?
that depends on whether the spelling is malei or chaser. But obed isn't a Hebrew word. Eved is. oved is also.
The Passover itself is a picture of redemption through the blood of the lamb
Blood on doorposts - first born is redeemed
no blood on doorpost - no redemption
so the quote has no source in Judaic texts.
"The life of the flesh is in the blood I have given it to you to make atonement for your souls upon the Alter" God through Moses
Not an especially good translation. Also, it ignores that the context of the verse is an explanation why we are not allowed to eat blood -- because, when sacrifices are used for atonement, blood is the operative part.
In the book of Hebrews the entire church is 'the church of the firstborn ones" all redeemed firstborn in Christ.
that's nice. And irrelevant.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
that depends on whether the spelling is malei or chaser. But obed isn't a Hebrew word. Eved is. oved is also.

so the quote has no source in Judaic texts.

Not an especially good translation. Also, it ignores that the context of the verse is an explanation why we are not allowed to eat blood -- because, when sacrifices are used for atonement, blood is the operative part.

that's nice. And irrelevant.


Isaiah 45:24
“Only in the Lord, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength; to him shall come and be ashamed all who were incensed against him.

Isaiah 46:13
I bring near my righteousness; it is not far off, and my salvation will not delay; I will put salvation in Zion, for Israel my glory.”

It is God who does the work to 'blot out sins" not man

Isaiah 43:25
“I, I am he who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and I will not remember your sins.

and the sin problem repeated in pretty strong terms in Isaiah

Isaiah 59:2
but your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you so that he does not hear.

If even God's prophet Isaiah had sinful lips needing atonement, then everyone does.

Isaiah 64:4
We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

How in the world would you conclude there is no sin problem between Israel and God needing a savior?
 
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whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
that depends on whether the spelling is malei or chaser. But obed isn't a Hebrew word. Eved is. oved is also.

so the quote has no source in Judaic texts.

Not an especially good translation. Also, it ignores that the context of the verse is an explanation why we are not allowed to eat blood -- because, when sacrifices are used for atonement, blood is the operative part.

that's nice. And irrelevant.


In Ezekiel God says he himself will be the shepherd of Israel a

Ezekiel 34:15
I myself will be the shepherd of my sheep, and I myself will make them lie down, declares the Lord God.

and then... almost in the next thought...

In Ezekiel 34:23-24 God sets David as shepherd over Israel

This fits with a divine messiah who is a descendent of David... such as Jesus
 

sooda

Veteran Member
First off, are you saying Jesus was ugly? Second, as to your question, the text says that "he" was marred in his appearance (as in 52:14). Other nations were shocked how hoe much the nation was reduced and decimated, and no one desired that the people be near them -- you of course recall how the Jews have been rejected from many countries throughout history.

The word "Israel" refers to the physical country because that is the land of the nation of Israel. So Israel is the promised land (renamed from K'na'an) and also the nation which is spoken of often in the singular as a man. And, historically, this man of Israel has been rejected and forced to suffer.

That's one translation. The text reads וּכְמַסְתֵּ֤ר פָּנִים֙ מִמֶּ֔נּוּ which is, by some, rendered "and like one who hides his face from us". As the text is being put in the mouths of other nations, it is the nation of Israel who is seen hiding his face because of his shame. Either way, Israel's abject state, after invasion and exile, is certainly worth hiding, or hiding from. If I'm reading the targum right, it seems to say that it was the nation from whom God his His face.

Israel didn't claim it. The other nations recognized that Israel was suffering for the other nations' sins. They also recognized that Israel was suffering at their (the nations' hands), that is, "bore our suffering". Here is one write up of it
"Indeed, he bore our illnesses: Heb. אָכֵן, an expression of ‘but’ in all places. But now we see that this came to him not because of his low state, but that he was chastised with pains so that all the nations be atoned for with Israel’s suffering. The illness that should rightfully have come upon us, he bore.
yet we accounted him: We thought that he was hated by the Omnipresent, but he was not so, but he was pained because of our transgressions and crushed because of our iniquities."

First, that's a strange translation. The words for "transgressions" and "iniquities" are prefaced by the mem which means "from" or "because of" not really "for." The nations committed sins which led to the suffering of Israel. Nothing new there. In fact, the idea of "of", if it is correct, would only reflect the way the gentiles understand the relationship, not necessarily the truth of the situation. Next, there is an idea that Israel is responsible for the well being of the world. That's part of Israel's role, to atone for the nations and protect them. Here's an interesting talmudic quote (Sukkah, 55b)

"Rabbi Yoḥanan said: Woe unto the nations of the world that lost something and do not know what they lost. When the Temple is standing, the seventy bulls sacrificed on the altar during the festival of Sukkot atones for them. And now that the Temple is destroyed, who atones for them?"

with the destruction of the first temple, and later, the second, the world did not get the atonement through the sacrifices. So the nations say either that they admit to having caused Israel to suffer, or that the way they figure it, Israel is being punished as atonement for them.

Isaiah 53 How does Israel's suffering atone for the sins of the nations?

Isaiah 53: The Suffering Servant

King Uzziah was ugly and set apart because he got leprosy..

Ministering during Uzziah’s reign were the prophets Hosea, Isaiah, Amos, and Jonah.

Uzziah - Jewish History
www.chabad.org › … › Prophets and KingsThe Kingdom of Judah
Uzziah. Uzziah, the ninth king of Judea, had been only sixteen years old when he was proclaimed ruler. During the first years that he ruled formally, while his father was barricaded in Lachish, he was a mere toy in the hands of his advisers, the leaders of the revolt against Amaziah. During this period the country was in a lamentable state.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
King Uzziah was ugly and set apart because he got leprosy..

Ministering during Uzziah’s reign were the prophets Hosea, Isaiah, Amos, and Jonah.

Uzziah - Jewish History
www.chabad.org › … › Prophets and KingsThe Kingdom of Judah
Uzziah. Uzziah, the ninth king of Judea, had been only sixteen years old when he was proclaimed ruler. During the first years that he ruled formally, while his father was barricaded in Lachish, he was a mere toy in the hands of his advisers, the leaders of the revolt against Amaziah. During this period the country was in a lamentable state.


Uzziah died in the year Isaiah saw his vision in chapter 6 and no reason to believe he was still around in the time of the servant song prophesies... given the length of time and number of kings Isaiah prophesied during

He had no beauty that we should be attracted to him really makes no sense of Israel....
Israel had no beauty that Israel should be attracted to themselves?????

no beauty does not necessarily mean ugly or otherwise repulsive except for the suffering to death that could be pretty repulsive
 

sooda

Veteran Member
It seems to me the phrase 'arm of the Lord' is significant

I also notice that 'the arm of the Lord' is in Isaiah 51 leading into the servant song in 52-53

Awake, awake, put on strength,
O arm of the Lord;
awake, as in days of old,
the generations of long ago.
Was it not you who cut Rahab in pieces,
who pierced the dragon?
10 Was it not you who dried up the sea,
the waters of the great deep,
who made the depths of the sea a way
for the redeemed to pass over?
11 And the ransomed of the Lord shall return
and come to Zion with singing;
everlasting joy shall be upon their heads;
they shall obtain gladness and joy,
and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.


Bottom line the arm of the Lord in 51 and 53 is divine not merely human and an astonishing special work of deliverance fo God. This is another reason it is not merely a human messiah or Israel but a divine Messiah, and in particular Jesus who was rejected, suffered for sins, died and overcame death, perfectly fulfilling horse passages

Isaiah 53:1 Who has believed our message and to whom has 'the arm of the Lord' been revealed to

Uzziah became king at 16 when his father, King Amaziah, was assassinated following a military disaster. Uzziah was faithful to the L ORD for a long time, and during that time he and his nation prospered. Rising to power after a long period of decline, he restored to Judah much of the strength and influence...

King Uzziah aka Azariah of Judah - Biography
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Uzziah died in the year Isaiah saw his vision in chapter 6 and no reason to believe he was still around in the time of the servant song prophesies... given the length of time and number of kings Isaiah prophesied during

He had no beauty that we should be attracted to him really makes no sense of Israel....
Israel had no beauty that Israel should be attracted to themselves?????

King Uzziah ruled for 42 years and ended up in quarantine .. Evidently he accomplished a lot.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
But since Israel was destroyed and embarrassed and forced to suffer, it hid its face. The text never says "ugly" though.

You aren't the one who makes the claim. The other nations assumed it about Israel.

Isaiah 53:9 New International Version (NIV)

He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

Ancient Israel had done no violence?
Really?
Still applicable?
One verse too many are falling and they are pointing to my Lord and Messiah.

Isaiah 1:3-4; 15 New International Version (NIV)
The ox knows its master,
the donkey its owner’s manger,
but Israel does not know,
my people do not understand.”

Woe to the sinful nation,
a people whose guilt is great,
a brood of evildoers,
children given to corruption!

They have forsaken the Lord;
they have spurned the Holy One of Israel
and turned their backs on him.

When you spread out your hands in prayer,
I hide my eyes from you;
even when you offer many prayers,
I am not listening.


Your hands are full of blood!

upload_2019-4-12_14-8-43.jpeg


On Isa 53:9 - does not apply to Israel
Never was and never could be.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
So what do you thing Isa 53 was about?
  1. Israel or
  2. Jesus Christ

It's about the sinless one who came to offer himself as the sacrificial lamb to
atone for the sins of his people. It's about the one who looked back after his
death and was satisfied. And it's about the one generations to come would
proclaim.
 
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