Jollybear
Hey
Everyone has reasons for there views and why they reject other views.
So you do accept them, im wrong then?
And theres a reason for that. What is it?
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Does it really matter if we believe in God?
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
Everyone has reasons for there views and why they reject other views.
So you do accept them, im wrong then?
And theres a reason for that. What is it?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
There is no free will in the afterlife (either heaven or hell) because we no longer have to choose between good and evil, because if we were good we will just continue living that good life we lived here but if we were evil we will just continue living that evil life.
This is what the Baha’i Faith teaches, but think about it from any Abrahamic religious perspective. If there was free will in the afterlife like we have in this life, why would it be so important to do good deeds and believe in God before we die? Why couldn’t we just hang out on earth and not care about anything but enjoying ourselves in selfish pastimes, knowing we can change after we die? How just would that be for the people who sacrificed their worldly desires and worshiped God in this life?
No, it does not work that way... This might sound harsh, but....
“He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.”Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339
I do not think that God punishes anyone. We punish ourselves. Receiving a punishment thus equates to not getting the reward one could have had, and they won’t realize what they have lost until after they die. Some people might not even realize it after they die, because they will be in a kind of fog, which is hell. How easy it will be to get out of this self-created hell is anyone’s best guess. It will depend upon the prayers of others and the mercy of God.
I am not saying that all nonbelievers will be in hell. I think that the reasons why they did not believe in God will determine where they end up. If they were sincere and tried to believe in God but couldn’t see any evidence for God’s existence, I like to think that will be a whole lot different from an atheist who arrogantly insisted there can be no God and shuns the Messengers of God and all the religions established by them.
The sincere nonbelievers might be helped by prayers and the mercy of God, whereas the arrogant atheist might not be amenable to any help, from God or others’ prayers, because he might continue in his arrogance. Arrogance is hell, in this life or the afterlife, because it prevents us from spiritual growth.
I know a lot of atheists from all the forums I have participated on for the last six years. I can see the difference. There are many atheists who struggle to believe in God but there are those who arrogantly thumb their noses at God. Any kind of just God is not going to consider them the same, because they are not the same.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do not think that we should focus on the Messengers themselves in the sense of worshiping them, but rather we need to pay attention to their teachings and live our lives accordingly. I do not worship Baha’u’llah and admittedly I even have difficulty worshiping God, but the teachings of Baha’u’llah have made me a better person. That is the whole point of religion, improving one’s behavior and their character. If there are no fruits, religion is a dead thing.
“Man is like unto a tree. If he be adorned with fruit, he hath been and will ever be worthy of praise and commendation. Otherwise a fruitless tree is but fit for fire.” Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh
All these of course can be found in the teachings of the great religions. One can adhere to the teachings without believing in the God.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I think your master if right. Love is all-important. That reminds me of this from a book that I Love.
“I want to say a few words about love--very few, because I know so little. Also because love is spoken about too much already, whereas it should be lived. If you would dwell in peace, learn to love deeply. Never cease from loving. Jesus said a good deal about love, if I remember rightly. Look up what He said and live it.
Love God by pouring yourself away. Love your fellows by giving them all you possess of light and truth.
Love LOVE for her own blessed sake. Such love will bring you nearer heaven.
I have spoken about illusion several times. I return to it once more. I begin to see that phenomenal existence, whether on earth or here, is so impermanent as to be unreal. This is a hard saying. I do not yet understand it.
Live above those conditions which, after much meditation, appear to you to be illusory. That is the best advice I can give.” Private Dowding, pp. 37-38
Love God by pouring yourself away. Love your fellows by giving them all you possess of light and truth.
Love LOVE for her own blessed sake. Such love will bring you nearer heaven.
I have spoken about illusion several times. I return to it once more. I begin to see that phenomenal existence, whether on earth or here, is so impermanent as to be unreal. This is a hard saying. I do not yet understand it.
Live above those conditions which, after much meditation, appear to you to be illusory. That is the best advice I can give.” Private Dowding, pp. 37-38
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That is absolutely true, but logically speaking, that does not mean that no one who claimed to be a Messenger of God was ever a Messenger of God.
As Jesus said, we shall know them by their fruits.
Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: FRUIT | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary
Honestly, I have no idea of why you insist in that there must be a reason.
Does aesthetical incompatibility with the idea count as a reason?
Of course, but it can hardly be called evidence. Suppose I declare that I saw Superman. Probably not true, but that does not mean that I never saw superman. Hardly evidence of the existence of Superman.
This is question begging. It assumes that God hires Messengers that give good fruits. Good according to whom? To us because that is what God gives to those messengers who are supposed to provide evidence thereof?
It is obviously circular reasoning. For what you know God speaks only to people who give bad fruits. You don’t know without making assumptions on the very thing you want to demonstrate.
Again, you are failing to provide even the most basic evidence of your God. You are not alone. All theists are like you.
Ciao
- viole
What about the souls of very little kids who did not have time to choose anything at all?
Ciao
- viole
Jollybear
Hey
I agree with everything here. And i sorta agree with the will part. But tye way i always looked at it is like this: the more pain and resistence we have, the STRONGER our will has to be exercised to do good.
Well in hell, the pain and resistence is the strongest, so the will has to be even stronger. So, the odds are lowered for them being redeemed unless they will it hard enough or Gods mercy kicks in as you said.
Jollybear
Hey
My reason for saying theres a reason is because there is a reason. Its inherently in there.
Yes, that counts as a reason. See, you have a reason, lol.
So, whats your reason you think theres no aesthetics to religion?
Uh what?
Clearly, I am having a real hard time trying to make myself understood by you.
There is a lot of aesthetics to religion. It is a major part of it. One that I greatly value, at that.
It is theistic belief that I find rather unesthetic. Or at the very least unpleasant.
Rational Agnostic
Well-Known Member
CS Lewis said that "Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance." This is true, but could be said about any belief at all, so the statement really has no meaning. Suppose I make the assertion that green aliens in the core of Jupiter are coming to shoot fire out of their eyeballs for eternity at anyone who doesn't believe in them. This belief, like Christianity, is of infinite importance if true and of no importance if false. As far as I can tell, the importance of a belief should not even be considered when determining whether or not to accept the belief. Instead, only hard evidence should count.
Shad
Veteran Member
My point was one of belief over deeds. Typically as seen in Christian view in which belief in Jesus is the trump card which damns or saves an individual. IE Person X could be a great person doing great deeds but is not Christian. They are damned. A Christian which does no great deeds and just believes in saved. A person that murders people is saved due to belief.
Have you looked at groups which specialize in an activity. For example a game club?
Yup. Evangelical Christian in Canada. Which is slightly less fundamentalist but with more apologies.
It is a fitting term in my view
Some items have become a necessity these days. Smart phones for example. Even government up here has shifted toward smart phone as a standard product people have. In such a situation even if a person does not want me then end up needing one. I had to get a cheap smart phone myself as government services would only use email and text not phone calls.
This seems like an odd statement as you can sell the homes now. Nothing is stopping you
Get a small acreage in the rural farming areas. Just my suggestion.
You can give up the cats. Provided you live in a nation that has shelter without euthanasia
Again an odd statement as there are a number of things you can do now to change this.
No it does not make you greedy. More so as you are renting so one type of greed, selfish greed, is not present as those people wouldn't rent at all.
It is not that astute.
The Prosperity Gospel is not like the Protestant work ethic. There is a darker side of the PG. Those that are poor are not blessed by God. A person could work very hard but is poor as God has not "willed" those people to be blessed.
Free will or lack of ambition (as in drive to do X)?
You need to look at getting an acreage and hobby farm in my view.
Yah drinking is one of those "demons" so to speak. Easy to get into, hard to get out.
Get rid of the cats and stop renting. Again this goes back to my point about lack of ambition.
Jollybear
Hey
Uh what?
Clearly, I am having a real hard time trying to make myself understood by you.
There is a lot of aesthetics to religion. It is a major part of it. One that I greatly value, at that.
It is theistic belief that I find rather unesthetic. Or at the very least unpleasant.
Ok, so what is your reason for seeing theism as unesthetic?
Help me there. What would be some hypothetical answers that you could make sense of?
We Never Know
No Slack
In short.
Believing in god is a personal choice. That choice is made on faith. I see nothing wrong with either.
When you try to push your choice and faith on others or want to teach it as fact and science, it does matter.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do not make assumptions, but I had to start somewhere. I looked at all the religion and that led me to a premise. The premise is that the ONLY way we can know anything about God is through what the Messengers of God reveal in scriptures. The conclusion is that God sent Messengers to reveal Himself and His Will for humanity.
Circular reasoning (Latin: circulus in probando, "circle in proving"; also known as circular logic) is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with.[1] The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true. Circular reasoning - Wikipedia
Belief that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God is not circular because I did not begin with what I wanted to end with. In other words, I did not say that Baha’u’llah is a Messenger because Baha’u’llah said He was a Messenger.
The evidence that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger is not that Baha’u’llah said He was a Messenger because that would be circular reasoning.
The evidence that Baha’u’llah was who He claimed to be is everything that surrounds the Revelation of Baha’u’llah, including who He was as a Person (His character); His mission on earth; the history of His Cause, from the time He appeared moving forward; the scriptures that He wrote; what His appointed Interpreters wrote; what others have written about the Baha’i Faith; the Bible prophecies that He fulfilled, as well as prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled; predictions He made that have come to pass; the religion that He established (followers) all over the world and what they have done and are doing now.
There is no proof that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God, as nobody can prove that as a fact, but the evidence I listed above is proof to those of us who find the evidence compelling.
No, I am not alone. All theists are similar to me because they have similar premises and conclusions. The hundred-dollar questions are:
(1) Why are religion and Messengers of God so problematic to atheists?
(2) In what other way could God provide evidence for His existence and convey a message?
I live for the day when I finally get logical answers to those questions.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That is a good question and I have an answer...
THE IMMORTALITY OF CHILDREN
Question.—What is the condition of children who die before attaining the age of discretion or before the appointed time of birth?
Answer.—These infants are under the shadow of the favor of God; and as they have not committed any sin and are not soiled with the impurities of the world of nature, they are the centers of the manifestation of bounty, and the Eye of Compassion will be turned upon them.
Some Answered Questions, p. 240
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I can certainly agree with that. Those of us who have endured a lot of pain and resistance know that the STRONGER our will has to be exercised to do good. .
That is a good observation. They would have to want to get out of hell. The Baha’i Faith scriptures do not have any detailed depictions of hell. Baha’u’llah wrote that it would not be prudent to reveal that for the following reason I highlighted in bold.
“Know thou that every hearing ear, if kept pure and undefiled, must, at all times and from every direction, hearken to the voice that uttereth these holy words: “Verily, we are God’s, and to Him shall we return.” The mysteries of man’s physical death and of his return have not been divulged, and still remain unread. By the righteousness of God! Were they to be revealed, they would evoke such fear and sorrow that some would perish, while others would be so filled with gladness as to wish for death, and beseech, with unceasing longing, the one true God—exalted be His glory—to hasten their end.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 345
So I have looked to other sources. Needless, to say, hell is not a pretty place, if it is anything like it is depicted in these books:
The Afterlife Revealed
Private Dowding
Heaven and Hell
The following passage from Private Dowding supports what Baha’u’llah said – no, we would not want to know. But if it is that bad, why didn’t God warn us? The answer is that He did warn us, in so many words and so many scriptures; he just did not give the gory details.
The description of hell below makes sense given what I believe, as well as what Jesus taught. Note that it says “No outside power can attract a man against his will. A man sinks or rises through the action of a spiritual law of gravity. He is never safe until he has emptied himself completely.” That is certainly congruent with what Jesus said about denying self (Matthew 16:23-26).
“I have looked into hell! I may have to return to that region. I shall be given my choice. Grant that I may be strong enough to offer myself freely. Hell is a thought region. Evil dwells there and works out its purposes. The forces used to hold mankind down in the darkness of ignorance are generated in hell! It is not a place; it is a condition. The human race has created the condition. It has taken millions of years to reach its present state. I dare not tell you what I saw there.... At first I refused to go.... There was no life, no light there. One felt stagnation everywhere. The angel said that was the most insidious kind of hell, stagnation, because no one recognised it as such. Contrary to belief, hell itself, or rather that part of it visited by my brother and the angel, is brilliantly lighted. The light is coarse, artificial. It keeps out the light of God. In this awful glare the angel's light nearly lost its radiance.
All this my brother told me afterwards. Those who die filled with thoughts of selfishness and sensuality are attracted down the grey avenues toward this hell of the senses.The darkness of the deep forests appalls, the loneliness is intense. At last, light is seen ahead. It is not the light of heaven, it is the lure of hell. These poor souls hasten onwards, though not toward destruction; there is no such thing. They hasten down into conditions that are the counterpart of their own interior condition. The Law is at work. This hell is a hell of the illusions and is itself an illusion. I find this hard to credit. Those who enter it are led to believe that the only realities are the sense passions and the beliefs of the human 'I'. This hell consists in believing the unreal to be real. It consists in the lure of the senses without the possibility of gratifying them. I was told a great deal more about this awful region, but I must not pass it on. The angel said that the 'condition' would ultimately dissolve into nothingness. Hell or apparently that part of it we are speaking about, depends for its existence on human thoughts and feelings. The race will never rise to greatness until the passions are controlled. This refers to nations and to individuals. On earth I was never interested in such matters. I did not realise the existence of the sexual canker at the heart of human life. What a terrible thing this is! Do not wait until you come over here. Set to work at once. There is no time to lose. Gain control of self. Then retain control by emptying yourself of self. All the thoughts of lust and passion, greed, hatred, envy, and, above all, selfishness, passing through the minds of men and women, generate the 'condition' called hell.
Purgatory and hell are different states. We all must needs pass through a purging, purifying process after leaving earth life. I am still in purgatory. Some day I shall rise above it. The majority who come over here rise above or rather THROUGH purgatory into higher conditions. A minority refuse to relinquish their thoughts and beliefs in the pleasures of sin and the reality of the sense life. They sink by the weight of their own thoughts.No outside power can attract a man against his will. A man sinks or rises through the action of a spiritual law of gravity. He is never safe until he has emptied himself completely. You see how I emphasise this fact. Some of these thoughts came to me whilst I waited in that gloomy forest. Then the angel and my brother returned. They had found him for whom they sought. He would not come away. They had to leave him there. Fear held him. He said his existence was awful, but he was afraid to move lest worse conditions should befall him.” Private Dowding, pp. 32-35
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do not know what you mean by hard evidence, but I agree that it is only the evidence that counts. Belief or non-belief in any religion is a t/f proposition.
I have a logical way of approaching things, not an emotional one. I started posting on forums about six years ago, and the first thing I said about my religion is that there are only two logical possibilities and ultimately, one has to pick between the two:
a) Baha’u’llah was a false prophet (a phony, con-man or psychotic), which means the Baha’i Faith is a false religion.
b) Baha’u’llah was a true Prophet (Messenger of God), which means the Baha’i Faith is a true religion of God.
Of course the same logic would need to be applied to any of the alleged Messengers of God and the religions they established, if one is considering the truth of their message.