Can Islamic and Christian Theological Concepts of God be reconciled?

adrian009 said:

Muhammad has established the heavenly Gospel revealed through Jesus as being authentic and authoritative:

And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil). Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein....".
Quran, Sura 5 46, 47

Then We caused Our messengers to follow in their footsteps; and We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow, and gave him the Gospel, and placed compassion and mercy in the hearts of those who followed him."
Quran, sura 57 verse 27

So the truth of the Gospels is clearly affirmed.

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If Muhammad praises the term "Gospel" but turns around and denies its content - he is merely paying lip service. Indeed, the entire premise of Muhammad as a prophet is that the message/gospel delivered by previous prophets of God had been corrupted overtime and needed to be corrected. Of course, Muhammad's Quran alone is incorruptible, lolz

The Gospel undoubtedly identifies Jesus as the 'Son of God'. However this is a spiritual designation and not to be confused with God having a physical son as you and I might have a son. Such a belief distorts the true intent of the Gospels and is based on the pagan beliefs of the Romans and Greeks where gods have children. In that sense Muhammad while affirming the Gospels, correct the misunderstanding of the Christians as they have erred towards pagan beliefs and misunderstood the true meaning of Jesus as 'Son of God'. For that reason Muhummad has stated:

It is not [befitting] for Allah to take a son; exalted is He! When He decrees an affair, He only says to it, "Be," and it is.
Quran 19:35

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First off, while it's possible that some sect(s) out there may have tried to argue that Jesus was begotten physically in the same manner as you or I might have a son - they would not have been mainstream believers. Whether you look at Trinitarians or non-trinitarians, the mainstream Christians have always accepted the Virgin Birth and that God is spirit (not flesh such that he would physically beget a child like Zeus or some other pagan god). I'm not sure if what you said is Muhammad's actual argument or merely your interpretation, but in either case it is a strawman argument.

Secondly, Whether you look at Christianity or Judaism, both individuals and the Israel as a whole have been called God's Son. Muhammad is thus in contradiction to the testimony of the scriptures and God's will - for God himself calls Jesus and Israel his Son.



If God himself address Christ and Israel as his Son, then who is Muhammad to correct him? Foolish.

In regards the crucifixion of Christ the gospels are even clearer. The two verses in the Quran that refer to the crucifixion should not be taken literally.

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From what you quoted earlier, those don't appear to be meant to be taken non-literally, nor do I believe Muslims interpret them non-literally. Of course, you are welcome to present the larger context and make your argument from the Quran itself on what is actually meant by those verses.

As many of the Jewish people are deprived of the Gospel of Christ through clinging to literal interpretations of verses within the Tanakh, so too are some Christians deprived of the blessings of recognising Muhammad.

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Muhammad has nothing to offer. If you want to pray at regulated times daily, you are welcome to. However, Christians recognize that multiplying your prayers like the pagans is meaningless.

Muhammad made clear that it is not enough to recognise Him, but to recognise all the prophets that have gone before.

We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them
Quran 2:136

Conversely, it is not sufficient to recognise only Moses and the Hebrew prophets yet deny Christ. Nor is it sufficient to stop at Jesus, denying the Prophets who have come after Him.

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Christianity accepts that there will be other with the gift of prophecy - but it is through Christ alone that we a reconciled to God and saved. God has culminated everything in Christ. Any additional prophets must be inline with Christ and his teachings.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

I see that you can not know and share what is from Christ, until one also embraces the Message given by Muhammad in the Quran.

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You can take that stance, but then you are choosing Islam over Christianity - not bringing them together.

iam1me said:

If Muhammad praises the term "Gospel" but turns around and denies its content - he is merely paying lip service. Indeed, the entire premise of Muhammad as a prophet is that the message/gospel delivered to previous prophets of God had been corrupted overtime and needed to be corrected. Of course, Muhammad's Quran alone is incorruptible, lolz

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Around the same time I began this thread, I also started another.

What are the Key Theological Differences between Islam and Christianity Regarding Concepts of God

The key theological differences between Christianity and Islam according to the poll are:

1/ The Divinity of Christ
2/ The Trinity
3/ Jesus as the Son of God
4/ The Resurrection of Christ
5/ Salvation
6/ The crucifixion

If we considered the Key theological differences between Christianity and Judasm, the gap becomes even greater, with the exception of the crucifixion.

Of course Christians would see no contradiction. or shouldn't between what the Hebrew Bible teachs and the New Testament. The key differences are not the text itself but the interpretation of the text.

In comparing the New Testament and the Quran many Christians view the Quran similarly to how Jews view the New Testamament. Adherents of Judaism reject the New Testament outright as do adherents of Christianity reject the Quran.

For Baha'is each theological issue can be resolved with careful consideration of both the textural and history context. I have decided long ago that Muhammad is a Messenger of God and the Quran is the Word of God. You have decided He isn't. I accept our differences and wish you well.

iam1me said:

If Muhammad praises the term "Gospel" but turns around and denies its content - he is merely paying lip service. Indeed, the entire premise of Muhammad as a prophet is that the message/gospel delivered by previous prophets of God had been corrupted overtime and needed to be corrected. Of course, Muhammad's Quran alone is incorruptible, lolz



First off, while it's possible that some sect(s) out there may have tried to argue that Jesus was begotten physically in the same manner as you or I might have a son - they would not have been mainstream believers. Whether you look at Trinitarians or non-trinitarians, the mainstream Christians have always accepted the Virgin Birth and that God is spirit (not flesh such that he would physically beget a child like Zeus or some other pagan god). I'm not sure if what you said is Muhammad's actual argument or merely your interpretation, but in either case it is a strawman argument.

Secondly, Whether you look at Christianity or Judaism, both individuals and the Israel as a whole have been called God's Son. Muhammad is thus in contradiction to the testimony of the scriptures and God's will - for God himself calls Jesus and Israel his Son.

Exodus 4:22 Then say to Pharaoh, ‘This is what the Lord says: Israel is my firstborn son,

Hosea 11:1“When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.

Mark 1:11 And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

Hebrews 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”a]">[a]? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”b]">[b]?
​

If God himself address Christ and Israel as his Son, then who is Muhammad to correct him? Foolish.



From what you quoted earlier, those don't appear to be meant to be taken non-literally, nor do I believe Muslims interpret them non-literally. Of course, you are welcome to present the larger context and make your argument from the Quran itself on what is actually meant by those verses.



Muhammad has nothing to offer. If you want to pray at regulated times daily, you are welcome to. However, Christians recognize that multiplying your prayers like the pagans is meaningless.

Matthew 6:7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.​

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

Acts 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”
​

Christianity accepts that there will be other with the gift of prophecy - but it is through Christ alone that we a reconciled to God and saved. God has culminated everything in Christ. Any additional prophets must be inline with Christ and his teachings.

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Prophets don't predict the future.. In the strictest sense Muhammed would be called messenger.

Muslims do believe Jesus will return in the last days.

adrian009 said:

Around the same time I began this thread, I also started another.

What are the Key Theological Differences between Islam and Christianity Regarding Concepts of God

The key theological differences between Christianity and Islam according to the poll are:

1/ The Divinity of Christ
2/ The Trinity
3/ Jesus as the Son of God
4/ The Resurrection of Christ
5/ Salvation
6/ The crucifixion

If we considered the Key theological differences between Christianity and Judasm, the gap becomes even greater, with the exception of the crucifixion.

Of course Christians would see no contradiction. or shouldn't between what the Hebrew Bible teachs and the New Testament. The key differences are not the text itself but the interpretation of the text.

In comparing the New Testament and the Quran many Christians view the Quran similarly to how Jews view the New Testamament. Adherents of Judaism reject the New Testament outright as do adherents of Christianity reject the Quran.

For Baha'is each theological issue can be resolved with careful consideration of both the textural and history context. I have decided long ago the Muhammad is a Messenger of God and the Quran is the Word of God. You have decided He isn't. I accept our differences and wish you well.

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Judaism has had and continues to have many variations and sects - just as any other major religion has many sects. Just because Christianity stands out as a Jewish sect does not negate the reality that it is founded upon Judaism through and through. It is the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets. And it didn't come out of thin air - but rather the Prophets told us of the Messiah's coming. Christianity was founded by religious Jews on the basis of the fulfillment of these prophecies. Other Jewish sects reject Christ as the Messiah, and await a future Messiah. Thus there is of course doctrinal contention between Jews and Christians on the matter. That doesn't negate the fact that Christianity is built directly upon the Law and the Prophets.

However, there is no precedence in Judaism or Christianity for Muhammad. He came out of nowhere, asserted everyone else's scriptures, traditions, and history were wrong - and rewrote them all as he pleased. To top it off, he took the core beliefs of Christianity and explicitly rejected them.

Whether or not you accept Christ as the Messiah, there is a clear and substantial difference in the claims that Christianity is a branch of Judaism vs Islam being a branch of Christianity. Christianity fulfills the Law and Prophets of Judaism. Islam rejects the core teachings of Christianity while playing lip service to the Jesus.

sooda said:

Prophets don't predict the future.. In the strictest sense Muhammed would be called messenger.

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Prophets don't ONLY prophecy concerning the future, and indeed that was often a secondary matter for the prophets in scripture. However, they DID prophecy the future - and that's precisely where we get the word "prophecy" from.

Also, while I admit I haven't studied Muhammed much myself, a quick internet search reveals a number of alleged prophecies by Muhammed according to Islamic apologists. For instance: Prophecies Made by The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

Muslims do believe Jesus will return in the last days.

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They reject his identity as the Son of God, Lord, the sole Mediator between God and men, his crucifixion and resurrection, and - in short -the Gospel. Using Jesus' name while making up their own version of the last days devoid of salvation through Christ is mere lip service.

iam1me said:

Judaism has had and continues to have many variations and sects - just as any other major religion has many sects. Just because Christianity stands out as a Jewish sect does not negate the reality that it is founded upon Judaism through and through. It is the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets. And it didn't come out of thin air - but rather the Prophets told us of the Messiah's coming. Christianity was founded by religious Jews on the basis of the fulfillment of these prophecies. Other Jewish sects reject Christ as the Messiah, and await a future Messiah. Thus there is of course doctrinal contention between Jews and Christians on the matter. That doesn't negate the fact that Christianity is built directly upon the Law and the Prophets.

However, there is no precedence in Judaism or Christianity for Muhammad. He came out of nowhere, asserted everyone else's scriptures, traditions, and history were wrong - and rewrote them all as he pleased.

To top it off, he took the core beliefs of Christianity and explicitly rejected them.

Whether or not you accept Christ as the Messiah, there is a clear and substantial difference in the claims that Christianity is a branch of Judaism vs Islam being a branch of Christianity.

Christianity fulfills the Law and Prophets of Judaism. Islam rejects the core teachings of Christianity while playing lip service to the Jesus.

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Jews don't believe in original sin or that Jesus was the son of God.

Prophecy does not simply seek to predict the future, but to change the present.

sooda said:

Prophets don't predict the future.. In the strictest sense Muhammed would be called messenger.

Muslims do believe Jesus will return in the last days.

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Muhammad is both, and yes, there is a very vast Islamic Eschatology (although it naturally varies between Sunnism and Shi'ism).
The Qur'an itself is more cryptic though, when it comes to the end times.

iam1me said:

Prophets don't ONLY predict the future, and indeed that was often a secondary matter for the prophets in scripture. However, they typically did predict the future - and that's precisely why we have the word "prophecy."

Also, while I admit I havent studied Muhammed much myself, a quick internet search reveals a number of alleged prophecies by Muhammed according to Islamist apologists. Prophecies Made by The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)



They reject his identity as the Son of God, Lord, the sole Mediator between God and men, his crucifixion and resurrection, and - in short -the Gospel. Using Jesus' name while making up their own version of the last days devoid of salvation through Christ is mere lip service.

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Christian end times predictions are quite different from those in Judaism.

sooda said:

Jews don't believe in original sin

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Neither do I, what's your point?

or that Jesus was the son of God.

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That is the dividing point between Christianity and other sects of Judaism: the identity of Christ. While certainly an important difference, it doesn't serve to negate Christianity's identity as a Jewish sect. Rather, it emphasizes its roots in Judaism - since we claim that Jesus came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets, that he is the awaited Messiah.

Prophecy does not simply seek to predict the future, but to change the present.

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Sure, but all prophecy has some future component to it. Else it wouldn't be prophecy.

sooda said:

Christian end times predictions are quite different from those in Judaism.

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Christianity certainly expands upon the topic, though much of what is said in the NT comes out of the OT itself.

iam1me said:

Judaism has had and continues to have many variations and sects - just as any other major religion has many sects. Just because Christianity stands out as a Jewish sect does not negate the reality that it is founded upon Judaism through and through. It is the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets. And it didn't come out of thin air - but rather the Prophets told us of the Messiah's coming. Christianity was founded by religious Jews on the basis of the fulfillment of these prophecies. Other Jewish sects reject Christ as the Messiah, and await a future Messiah. Thus there is of course doctrinal contention between Jews and Christians on the matter. That doesn't negate the fact that Christianity is built directly upon the Law and the Prophets.

However, there is no precedence in Judaism or Christianity for Muhammad. He came out of nowhere, asserted everyone else's scriptures, traditions, and history were wrong - and rewrote them all as he pleased. To top it off, he took the core beliefs of Christianity and explicitly rejected them.

Whether or not you accept Christ as the Messiah, there is a clear and substantial difference in the claims that Christianity is a branch of Judaism vs Islam being a branch of Christianity. Christianity fulfills the Law and Prophets of Judaism. Islam rejects the core teachings of Christianity while playing lip service to the Jesus.

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Interestingly Islam is closer to Judaism than Christianity as many Jews will testify. Both Islam and Judaism are strictly montheistic. Christianity has a triune god. Neither Judaism nor Islam claim Divine status for their respective Founder. Christianity claims Jesus to be physically God incarnate. Neither Islam nor Judaism accept the resurrection of Jesus as an historic fact. Both Islam and Judaism strongly reject paganism. Christianity incorporates pagan ideas with Jesus being the physical son of God, God incarnate into a man and then resurrected, all rejected by Islam and Judaism.

What does it matter if Islam came out of Judaism or not. There were an abundance of false prophets and messiah's that came from Judaism. Most importantly is whether Islam came from God. If you believe God can only annoint those who were Jewish you limit God.

adrian009 said:

Interestingly Islam is closer to Judaism than Christianity as many Jews will testify.

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This varies greatly depending upon the particular sect of Christianity you are speaking of and of the individuals in question. Also, completely irrelevant to the question of whether or not Christianity is a Jewish sect.

Both Islam and Judaism are strictly montheistic.

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As is Christianity

Christianity has a triune god. Neither Judaism nor Islam claim Divine status for their respective Founder. Christianity claims Jesus to be physically God incarnate.

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'Orthodox' Christianity believes that God is a Trinity - and they are still monotheists. The Trinity, however, was not taught by Christ nor is it found in the scriptures. It took hundreds of years to develop and was forced upon people (outside of the Roman Empire, non-trinitarian views persisted). I myself reject the Trinity doctrine - the scriptures are abundantly clear that Jesus is not God Almighty. Here's a few verses, from a numerous collection, where Jesus is clearly shown to be distinct and subordinate to God:


Where many Christians get into trouble is that there are a couple verses where Jesus is addressed as God. Since they have not studied the scriptures thoroughly, they try to interpret this literally. However, having someone other than God being addressed as if God (or gods) is actually common. Moses was addressed as God, the Angels were addressed as God, and the Jewish people are declared to be gods. Of course, studied in context, it is clear that none of these are literally God himself. So it is with Christ.


So God's representatives and people within scripture are often presented as if God himself, or as "gods."

Neither Islam nor Judaism accept the resurrection of Jesus as an historic fact. Both Islam and Judaism strongly reject paganism. Christianity incorporates pagan ideas with Jesus being the physical son of God, God incarnate into a man and then resurrected, all rejected by Islam and Judaism.

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The identity of Christ is THE dividing point between Christianity and Judaism. If they accepted Jesus as the Messiah, they would be Christian. This conflict doesn't call into question Christianities identity as a Jewish sect, however - but emphasizes it, as noted earlier.

What does it matter if Islam came out of Judaism or not. There were an abundance of false prophets and messiah's that came from Judaism. Most importantly is whether Islam came from God. If you believe God can only annoint those who were Jewish you limit God.

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It is clear that Islam didn't come from God. There is no precedence in Judaism/Christianity for Muhammad, nor are his teachings in agreement with Christ's.

iam1me said:

Judaism has had and continues to have many variations and sects - just as any other major religion has many sects. Just because Christianity stands out as a Jewish sect does not negate the reality that it is founded upon Judaism through and through. It is the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets. And it didn't come out of thin air - but rather the Prophets told us of the Messiah's coming. Christianity was founded by religious Jews on the basis of the fulfillment of these prophecies. Other Jewish sects reject Christ as the Messiah, and await a future Messiah. Thus there is of course doctrinal contention between Jews and Christians on the matter. That doesn't negate the fact that Christianity is built directly upon the Law and the Prophets.

However, there is no precedence in Judaism or Christianity for Muhammad. He came out of nowhere, asserted everyone else's scriptures, traditions, and history were wrong - and rewrote them all as he pleased. To top it off, he took the core beliefs of Christianity and explicitly rejected them.

Whether or not you accept Christ as the Messiah, there is a clear and substantial difference in the claims that Christianity is a branch of Judaism vs Islam being a branch of Christianity. Christianity fulfills the Law and Prophets of Judaism. Islam rejects the core teachings of Christianity while playing lip service to the Jesus.

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Islam doesn't believe in original sin.. Neither does Judaism. Judaism doesn't believe that God has offspring.. neither does Islam.

Islam rejects blood sacrifice so does Christianity.

sooda said:

Islam doesn't believe in original sin.. Neither does Judaism.

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Original Sin is a Catholic doctrine - not a fundamental teaching of Christianity. Many Christians don't believe in Original Sin either, such as myself.

Judaism doesn't believe that God has offspring.. neither does Islam.

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Exodus 4:22Then say to Pharaoh, ‘This is what the Lord says: Israel is my firstborn son,

Islam rejects blood sacrifice so does Christianity.

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Not accurate. Christianity is founded upon Christ's blood - the blood of the New Covenant. Christianity rejects the need for continual sacrifices, since Christ's sacrifice covers us once and for all.

iam1me said:

Neither do I, what's your point?

That is the dividing point between Christianity and other sects of Judaism: the identity of Christ. While certainly an important difference, it doesn't serve to negate Christianity's identity as a Jewish sect. Rather, it emphasizes its roots in Judaism - since we claim that Jesus came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets, that he is the awaited Messiah.

Sure, but all prophecy has some future component to it. Else it wouldn't be prophecy.

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I don't believe in Original Sin either, but that negates the need to crucify Jesus for our "sin nature".

Original Sin and Christian Salvation: The Unspoken Bible
The Unspoken BibleSin/original_sin.htm
The very nature of the original sin presents us with a picture of a powerless god. Since he failed so early at a relatively simple task, there is no reason to presume God has any influence over human actions. No reason to believe he was involved with the Bible. No reason to believe he orchestrated Jesus' crucifixion.

snip

Original sin may be taken to mean: (1) the sin that Adam committed; (2) a consequence of this first sin, the hereditary stain with which we are born on account of our origin or descent from Adam.

From the earliest times the latter sense of the word was more common, as may be seen by St. Augustine's statement: "the deliberate sin of the First man is the cause of original sin" (Catholic Encyclopedia: Original Sin)

12Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned. (Rom. 5:12)

23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom 6:23)

sooda said:

I don't believe in Original Sin either, but that negates the need to crucify Jesus for our "sin nature".

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Christ didn't die for our "sin nature" - but for our sins. You don't need Original Sin for there to be sin.

iam1me said:

Christ didn't die for our "sin nature" - but for our sins. You don't need Original Sin for there to be sin.

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"Sin nature" is inherited sin..

sooda said:

"Sin nature" is inherited sin..

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I understood what you meant. Again: sin exists regardless of the existence of inherited sin.

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

iam1me said:

I understood what you meant. Again: sin exists regardless of the existence of inherited sin.

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

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I find it very difficult..

After Adam and Eve sinned, they were separated from the love of God.

As you read through the Old Testament you realize that to be close to God, there had to be a shedding of blood in sacrifice.

The sacrifice was usually a lamb that was cut open and then burned on an altar. In the New Testament, Jesus came to earth to be the PERMANENT sacrifice for all sin. That means, you, me, and every person in the entire world from past to present...even those who don't believe in Him, still get a chance to do so while they are alive.

Remember sin, separates us from God. In Romans 3: 10 - 11 we find that "there is none righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands".

It means that there is not one person with the power to send themselves to heaven or no matter what you do in and of yourself, you are not worthy to come before God the Father. Only through the blood sacrifice of His Son Jesus Christ, can hope to be with God.

Here's what really gets me.. If Jesus already paid the price, what is the point of further judgment?

On the other hand, Muslims believe that every person is accountable to God for his own sins. Muhammed's early sermons were basically, "Save yourselves. I cannot save you. Return to the God of Abraham."

I hope I don't sound like I'm preaching because that is NOT my intention.